Eagles Wake-Up Call: Davis Counting On the Blitz

Photo by: Jeff Fusco.

Photo by: Jeff Fusco.

By just about any statistical measure, the Eagles’ pass defense has plenty of room for improvement.

Football Outsiders had the Birds ranked 25th overall against the pass last year. Despite a focus on limiting big plays, Billy Davis’ unit was burned for 62 completions of 20+ yards, fourth-most in the NFL.




Any time the pass defense struggles, coaches point to two specific areas: pass-rush and coverage. The latter should see an improvement with Malcolm Jenkins filling in for Patrick Chung. The addition of cornerback Nolan Carroll II could help as well.

But the team did very little to bolster the pass-rush. The only significant addition up front was Marcus Smith II. And based on what we've seen in the preseason, Smith is unlikely to provide much pass-rush as a rookie. Combine that with the fact that illegal contact downfield is a point of emphasis for officials, and Davis thinks sending extra pressure might be his best chance for improvement.

"Probably," he said, when asked if the rule emphasis would lead to more blitzing. "When you put yourself as a corner, and let’s say we have quarters, which is four deep. You think if they go four deep, we’ve got four guys that are covering deep. Well, the corners are on their own either way. The corners have the ones [outside receivers], period, whether you’re rushing four or you blitz six. The corner still has the wide receiver on his own if it’s a vertical route.

"So you’re better off, if the guy’s gotta cover him the whole time anyway, let’s bring six, let’s bring seven. Let’s overload it so the ball has to come out and come out ugly if we’re gonna get flagged for any kind of a touch anyway. … More pressure will help the ball come out quicker."

According to Football Outsiders' numbers, the Eagles blitzed (defined here as more than four pass-rushers) 36.6 percent of the time last year, ninth-most in the NFL. They rushed five defenders 27.8 percent of the time and six or more 8.6 percent.

The Eagles were 19th in adjusted sack rate and 20th in overall sacks (37).

Davis constantly urges observers to look at the tape, though, not the numbers.

Asked if he felt the Eagles' pass-rush was underrated last year, Davis said: "Yes I do, yes I do. I just think that the sack numbers don’t represent… a lot of those turnovers. Take the New York Giants game at New York. Eli Manning had what, four intentional groundings? Intentional groundings, we can’t control what that quarterback’s doing when we got him. ‘I’m throwing it away, intentional grounding.’ Nobody got a sack though, even though Trent Cole or Connor [Barwin] is dumping him on his head. He got rid of it and it’s intentional grounding. ...Stats aren’t everything. It’s the film."

The Eagles have added more to their defensive package in Year 2 of the scheme, Davis said. Whether it's pass-rush or coverage, they'll need to do a better job of slowing teams down through the air if they want to build on their 2013 performance.

WHAT YOU MISSED

T-Mac has a list of potential kicker options for the Eagles.

The Rams are reportedly interested in Mark Sanchez, but a trade seems unlikely.

Why opponents could have a tough time playing a lot of man coverage against the Birds.

Game review: How the Eagles' defense performed against the Steelers. Mychal Kendricks and Brandon Graham stand out.

Chip Kelly on the plan at kicker.

The Eagles cut 14 players this weekend.

Game review: How the Eagles' offense performed. Notes on the O-Line, wide receivers and more.

Graham and Vinny Curry state their cases for bigger roles, writes T-Mac.

Some great photos from Thursday night's game.

Veteran defensive lineman Brandon Bair continues to impress.

WHAT THEY'RE SAYING

Tommy Lawlor of Iggles Blitz on the issue of so many Oregon players on the roster:

None of the guys has been forced into the starting lineup. No one is getting overpaid. Several will be cut next weekend. When Kelly puts Josh Kaddu into the lineup over DeMeco Ryans or plays Jeff Maehl over Jordan Matthews, then we’ll have an issue. These guys fit the schemes. They were drafted or signed for the right price. They are being used correctly. Why does it matter if they came from Oregon or Nebraska?

If this was Steve Spurrier forcing Danny Wuerffel on us…that would be a whole other story.

Tom Pelissero of USA Today on the possibility of Sanchez going to the Rams:

It's only natural for Mark Sanchez's name to come up in connection with the St. Louis Rams in the wake of starting quarterback Sam Bradford's season-ending knee injury, given Sanchez's experience in coordinator Brian Schottenheimer's offense.

But if Sanchez has anything to say about it, there's "no chance" he'd abandon his fresh start as a backup under coach Chip Kelly with the Philadelphia Eagles for a shot to rejoin Schottenheimer and play in St. Louis, a person with knowledge of Sanchez's thinking told USA TODAY Sports on Sunday.

COMING UP

We'll be at practice today and will have plenty of updates. We're all aware that two weeks from today, we'll be dissecting a regular-season game, right?

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  • NickS, Combine Warrior

    Wait, our pass rush needs improvement?

    • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

      no, we get lots of batted passes, remember? counts the same.

      and beau allen

      [edit]: /sarcasmfont ,for the new guys

      • NickS, Combine Warrior

        Gossamer will eat QBs!

      • Andy Six Score and Four

        I wonder how much impact Kendricks can have.

      • Amar, CB who bought in

        Intentional groundings too.
        Soon, flushing the QB out of the pocket will count for something.

        • Kleptolia

          Nope. Intentional grounding count for something in my book. It means the QB was pressured and the secondary gave him nowhere to go with the ball. That’s a good defensive play.
          Flushing him out of the pocket is only the start of a defensive play. It could still go either way.

          • Amar, CB who bought in

            Sounds about right.

  • Dominik

    Re: Adjusted Sack rate from Football Outsiders

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

    Is it me or is this run blocking/pass pro table tough to figure out? Because if I’m right, we’re ranked #19, Sheil. We’re ranked #17 in Run Blocking.

    Why do they call it Run Blocking and Pass Pro anyway? Those are stats about the Front Seven (it is for the D-Line, but the pass rush from 34 teams come from the OLBs), right? Why not Run D and Pass Rush?

    I’m confused.

    • sdk152

      You’re right. It’s 19th. Fixed it. Thanks! -SK

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/RipperEagle96?feature=mhee RJ

    I think it’s elementary that you need to count on the blitz to generate pressure in the 3-4 defense. It’s not at its base to be a pass rushing scheme. It’s more for stopping passing attacks, dropping linebackers into coverage and sending the other ones on blitzes to help out the three down linemen.

    With a full year of knowing what is expected from Davis, and the additions of Carroll and Jenkins, I don’t see where things cannot go up from here on ALL fronts.

  • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

    Re: Lawlor article.

    Last night I stumbled upon a Mosher article discussing the battle for the sixth WR spot. Did anyone know that Will Murphy was a duck? Guy is absolutely terrible. Mosher basically asked “how is he still on the roster?” Before saying “Oh yeah, former duck.”

    I know it’s 76 and we still need to cut 23. But seriously, this former duck gets a pass thing is getting on my nerves.

    • Token

      Lawlor is giving them a pass on the Oregon stuff? Shocking.

      • Rellihcs

        Yeah, about as shocking as you chiming in with a pointless negative comment. I predict 3 former ducks on the 53 roster…which is not a probleatic # at all. And if you think the alma matter of 94/75 man roster filler/camp bodies matter, than you’re just being foolish.

        • Token

          My deepest apologies…

        • NickS, Combine Warrior

          Which Ducks on the final 53?

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            Caseymatthews, Maehl, Hart, Huff, Barner, and Bair probably and unfortunately for three of the names on the list. I’m sure I missed a couple.

          • Token

            Cant believe we are looking at Matthews and Maehl making the roster again. Those guys would likely be out of the NFL once we let them go.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            It doesn’t make any [curse word, curse word, curse word] sense. It just [curse word] doesn’t.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            they can’t do it to us.
            Long and Smith, please. 4 ILB and 5 WR.

          • NickS, Combine Warrior

            Yeah I interpreted his statement as only three and I figured there’d be one or two more. Bair, Barner, Hart & Huff as almost definite four, with the possibility that Barner is released. Maehl is the only other I can see with a shot. Kelly isn’t keeping Matthews again. It can’t happen.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            I’ve lost hope. I have decided to accept the fact that caseymatthews’ jersey number will in fact be retired at the Linc.

          • aub32

            He’s going to be the franchise leader in STs tackles.

          • dnabrice

            But they didn’t bring him it to be a special teams ACE!

          • aub32

            They didn’t, but I kind of get the feeling that one of the reasons Kelly decided to coach the Eagles is because they already had a dominant STer in Casey Matthews.

          • Rellihcs

            I doubt mathews, mehl, and barner make it. maybe barner, but he’s no guarantee.

    • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

      Lawlor explained it the same way Chip alluded to in his presser; to get through the 4th game, you need bodies to play since most/all 1’s and some 2’s are resting. This is especially true at RB (McCoy, Sproles pry sit whole game; Tucker, Josey, Barner taking reps) as well as WR (Maclin, Cooper sitting, Benn and Huff hurt). Someone has to play.
      Also, from Chipspeak, it’s pretty accepted (1) he won’t just sign some WR now and throw him in, since he needs guys to “learn” that position; and (2) cutting a player like Cunningham now is good because another team may sign him. No need to with Murphy, I’m sure PS is his ceiling.

      • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

        So I guess my beef is kinda loaded.

        Take the RB thing. Barner is signed Tuesday, plays before Josey on Thursday. Why does Barner play before Josey? We’ve seen nothing but good things from Josey. Because Barner “knows the system?” This has been debunked by every former Oregon offensive player. And we’ve had enough come through to know. If Barner is just a body, why not play him in the 4th Q of that game with the rest of the “just bodies?” There is really only one thing that puts Barner above Josey…

        WR – It’s the fact that it is Murphy. What has Murphy done to stay on the roster this long? Although he is PS bound, there are no reports on him. He does not show up in preseason games. Why give him the nod over say the LSU guy that we may be able to develop on the PS? Another Momah project? You know what I mean? How can the Oregon guy help the others learn the system when Huff, former Oregon guy, has said that it is different?

        Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I just hate that so much Oregon “talent” is on the roster. But those are my qualms. Justified or nah.

        • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

          trust me, you’re well justified. I’m not so much taking that stance, as just trying to explain it. if even to just to convince myself.
          i don’t think it’s so much that they “know” the system, rather just the expectations and small things (tempo, dedication to blocking, YAC techniques, izr) that allow them to learn faster. again, I’m saying this expecting all to get cut before 53.

          but scanning around the league (aaron wilson, BaltSun, good twitter follow) there aren’t these great player talents being cut to fight over. why not let these guys play in meaningless scrimmage, if only to better observe small things like OL play?

          • aub32

            However, the “learn faster” theory was debunked by Huff. He’s still trying to learn the system and having issues here and there.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            i agree. I said as much; not that they know the system, rather the expectations. Reason Murphy and Maehl are even in TC for a 2nd year; I’m sure we could all identify 2 physical talents better than them.
            going back to the original post, I’m just explaining why murphy wasn’t part of the first 15 cuts. not that he has any chance of making the roster.

            I can’t explain Barner, however. I’d much rather Josey see as many snaps as possible. I understand the trade, I doubt we ever give up any pick, but I don’t know why he played so early

          • aub32

            I thought the Barner trade was good. We needed a body at RB to eat up snaps, and we can cut him after preseason for no cost. That makes more sense than grabbing a street FA. My problem is that by keeping these players that are worse, you are hindering guys that we intend to keep. How is Barkley supposed to develop if the backups he’s playing with can’t even compete against the 3rd, 4th, and 5th string guys of other teams. I was fine with so many ducks being on the 90 man squad because I don’t think there are so many FAs with potential to fill up a 90 man roster for 32 teams. However, I am starting to get nervous that some of these guys might make it onto the 53.

          • DoctorRick

            Why risk Josie, he’s shown himself? Let Barner get some snaps and maybe make the PS. Barner is a player and might add some value in here somewhere.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            Appreciate the explanation. Maybe we’ll be surprised come 53 man cut down time. Until then, I’m bearish, Tokenish if you will, on this whole under 7 Oregon players on the roster idea.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            went back to count for myself:
            huff, maehl, murphy, barner, bair, keliikipi, hart, kaddu, c.matthews
            my 53:
            huff, maehl, murphy, barner, bair, keliikipi, hart, kaddu, c.matthews

            so in my head, from 9 to a final 3. and really, who predicted bair before camp? I can’t complain about him, the dude played well Oregon alum or not. The other 2 are mid-rd picks this year, both pretty justifiable.

            I just don’t see the Oregon thing being such a big deal by RS.*

            *-this statement entirely premised on all those players listed actually cut from 53

          • aub32

            If that’s the cut down, I think anyone who complains is grasping at straws. I did not really agree with the Huff pick, but once it happened, he was guaranteed a roster spot having been picked in the 3rd round. We had crap at DL depth last year. So we had to figure Hart was a lock as well. And as you said, Bair has actually done something on the field, unlike the ducks you have us cutting.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            Yeah I was being kinda facetious with the seven prediction. Oh, and I’m not complaining about Papa Bair at all. He’s been balling.

            But, I’m convinced Maehl is making it. He’s been number two behind Injeremy Report Maclin. Caseymatthews, come on. He’s making it. Huff, Bair, Hart so far equals five. We’ll judge Barner after the next game. If he goes in before Josey, my guess is that he stays. So, maybe six.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            i will be just as tokenish as you and, well, token, if maehl and matthewslesser make the team. it’s more a prayer than prediction I’m making. The whole cross-training of Long gives me hope; and if Huff stays off IR it’s Smith and Maehl battling 5/6*.
            it seems there’s always that 5th white, scrappy WR guy on most teams. I think in DAL they call him Beasley? converts a couple 3rd downs against us every year? I guess that’s maehl for us. sigh.

          • anon

            id rather cut maehl and keep 5 rbs.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            “it seems there’s always that 5th white, scrappy WR guy on most teams. I think in DAL they call him Beasley?”

            LLOL (legitimately laughed out loud)! It’s so true, though. Now I want to know what each NFL team calls their 5th white, scrappy WR.

          • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

            Keshawn Johnson called him the “mascot” – although thats mostly jealousy. Wayne Crebet could play.

          • aub32

            I’m pretty sure DJ2 would classify as our white scrappy WR. He’s much closer to the mold of a woodhead, Beasley, or Hall than Maehl is.

          • anon

            you cutting maehl for momah or benn? maehl contributes more, via special teams than both those guys. momah needs a year on ps. benn needs to get cut.

          • Dominik

            We have two more ACES on ST who can’t play O or D in Braman and Maragos. We have two great Gunners in Carroll and BoyKING (Carroll party was signed due his ST experience and he was a Gunner with the Dolphins).

            Maehl isn’t a great STer and he can’t play Offense. Cut this guy, please. Even if Momah isn’t ready now, before I give this spot to Maehl, Momah can have it all day.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            i never mentioned momah or benn. I’d cut both as well. 5 WR, with Smith, I think Pratt makes PS. Momah may get plucked by another team on PS, much to the chagrin of Rich C
            but if Maehl made it as 6th, of course the 6th WR is a ST guy. c’mon, there are really important things to improve on this team beyond a former Duck at 6th WR

          • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

            Mohmah needs to seriously consider entering the workforce. Might be time for Enterprise rent-a-car. Because they’ve got an excellent corporate structure, and they give you the tools to be your own boss.

          • MagatBrackendale

            Yes but can he drive? Or detail?

          • Dominik

            Agree, altough Barner would have a shot in my book. The 4th game really is as boring as it gets if you don’t even see the 2nd stringers in action. But the RB battle should be interesting.

            It’s damn rare, but I really don’t have anything against any of those guys. Polk (if he’s healthy…), Josey, Tucker and Barner, only 2 can have a job.

            If I look at WR I see Maehl or DJ, don’t want them on the roster. If I look at LB, I see C Matthews – well, I don’t even need to mention it. But RB? If it would make any sense, give me all of those guys. I liked them all in Preseason or when they had a chance to play last season (Polk).

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ Kelce’s Beard

            same. I’m ok with Barner, so long as he shows something to justify him beating out josey or tucker. Probably the most exciting thing to watch in #4 will be the RB situation. I think we’ll end up with 2 pretty good guys out of that 4-pk.
            I guess part of my prediction implies PHL going light on WRs, and (1) keeping 4th RB (2) keeping extra DB active (3) possible extra DL

          • Dominik

            Today, I really wouldn’t know what’s the best combination of RBs. I guess, despite his stupid fumble, Tucker makes sense because he’s a change of pace back. (For a RB) huge at 6-1, 227. Polk has all-around game and is N-S runner. I guess the injury situation will decide his chances. If Chip thinks he can stay healthy, he will be on the roster, I think.

            Josey really flashed in the last two games, after not showing anything in the first game. Can you keep him on the PS? I don’t know if he didn’t play too good for that. Some teams will carry 4 RBs and there are always injuries at this position…

            Barner probably would be more safe on the PS.

            Those guys will decide their future against the Jets. I really don’t have anything against all those guys. But it would probably make the most sense to sign Barner to the PS because he seems like the safest there. Then Tucker and Polk or Josey, whatever the injury projection for Polk is.

          • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

            the strike out through caseymatthews’ name is actually how his parents recorded it at the hospital

          • DoctorRick

            I think rob hit it. We won’t see any ones and probably only a few twos in this last game. Need some bodies to play.

          • MagatBrackendale

            How many Hurricanes did Johnson have his first couple of years in Dallas?

        • aub32

          I really like your Barner point.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            WR argument wasn’t strong. It sounded so good in my head. Wrote it down, read it, and said “eh, screw it. And screw midlevel former Oregon players while we’re at it.”

          • UncleCarm

            Had to laugh at “It sounded so good in my head.” I’ve had to totally abandon comments because once I typed them out they were not effective.

          • anon

            i thought it was just to get barner reps, we’ve seen extended looks from josey. gotta get the other guys reps –that’s why i think tucker got so many reps.

            but they put josey in and he takes another to the house so you know every game for him is a td run.

          • aub32

            That’s a fair point as well.

          • Andy Six Score and Four

            What Barner point? Barner didn’t play before Josey and the “point” is based entirely off that falsehood.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            He entered the game before Josey… He entered in the third quarter. Josey didn’t get in until the fourth.

            Edit: My mistake. Josey spelled Tucker for one play and did play before Barner.

          • Andy Six Score and Four

            I think he was also in a 2-back set with Sproles in the second quarter.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            I will edit what I said then to say that Barner was the featured back before Josey. Two plays before Barner do not take away the fact that Barner got more meaningful reps. By meaningful I mean against the twos. If he were a body that needed reps, he should have taken Josey’s place in the 4th. Which is still what I was getting at.

            We really need some new posts so we can’t stop discussing these topics.

          • Andy Six Score and Four

            Agree with your last sentence. I just don’t agree with the sentiment in the first paragraph. Josey also had that 70 yarder called back before Barner got the bulk of his action. HJ needed to get his shoe back on and probably needed a breather. You’re reading too much in to who carried what when.

            When guys are mixing in and out, reps get distributed by circumstance rather than by hierarchy.

        • dnabrice

          Barner also said it was completely different than in college. Kelly NFL is different than Kelly Oregon…

        • Andy Six Score and Four

          I don’t think Barner played before Josey.

          • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

            Barner entered in the third or roundabouts. Josey did not enter until the fourth.

        • MagatBrackendale

          Barner just arrived, it’s PRESEASON. When was he supposed to get some game time so he could learn and be evaluated???

  • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

    Philosophically I go back and forth on this issue. The pass rush was bad last year, and we didn’t do anything in the offseason to help it. So naturally the answer is “Blitz.” But what’s the old saying? Live by the blitz, die by the blitz. You blitz a savvy, smart QB, he’ll eat your lunch. I guess my hope is that the focus on mirroring the defense will allow Davis to better disguise his blitzes.

    • cliff h-MOAR white goons

      right, and score 50

    • aub32

      We didn’t make any moves to really help this defense mirror itself in 2014 either. I think it’s unlikely that Smith unseats Cole this year. So we are going to see the same front seven with the same limitations. Even if Smith comes into his own by week 10, we still won’t have a mirrored defense look because he isn’t learning how to blitz. Barwin would just be the permanent predator in place of Cole,which sounds like a downgrade at passrush, while Smith would be a downgrade to Barwin at Jack.

      • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

        well you already know how I feel about the Smith reach, so I won’t beat that up just to agree with you. Its not a move per se, but what they’ve done in the secondary with respect to mirroring counts for me. I’m trying to be hopeful here.

      • DoctorRick

        I’m thinking we’re not bad at D and have improved somewhat, although we did not get the dominant safety I was hoping for. MSII should improve through the year and be able to add some edge pressure, and Vinny has been pretty consistent. I agree with what coach Davis said about the pressure being more important than sacks. If we can get consistent pressure and force the ball out ugly that would be a step up that I think we are capable of.

        • aub32

          We didn’t just have a problem creating sacks last year. We had a problem pressuring QBs. Go back and look at the Bucs game, where we couldn’t even rattle Glennon. I agree that Curry shows the ability to provide a pass rush, but how much will he play? MSII will improve, but I don’t get why you and other think he’s going to provide some pass rush assistance this season when his goal is to learn the Jack position. He’s Barwin’s backup, not Cole’s.

          • DoctorRick

            I hear ya but I’m being cautiously optimistic based on some personnel improvement and guys being more familiar with the scheme. If the mirror thing comes to pass we may get some pressure from the Jack position. Unless we get some new talent dropping in by parachute we are going to get what we get with who we got.
            I will say MSII has looked pretty confused at times, athletic but unsure of where to be. He got mismatched and burned bad by the Chicago WR on at least one play.
            At least I didn’t have to see Roc Carmichael’s jersey play after play.

          • NickS, Combine Warrior

            Didnt’ Fletcher Cox have like 5 hurries himself against TB?

          • Andy Six Score and Four

            He may have. But I do remember being frustrated at how little pressure we got on Glennon that game, letting the young rookie get comfortable and settle in to a groove against us.

          • NickS, Combine Warrior

            Yeah, just remembered that as the game where he was constantly in the backfield but never getting a sack. Which would also lead me to the frustration you noted.

    • Eagles4Life

      I don’t trust Trent Cole “mirroring” and MSII isn’t ready yet, so we’ll see how that goes, but you never know. I’ll stay hopeful for now. And maybe we can bring Jim Johnson back from the grave.

    • Kleptolia

      As I said: stunts and blitzes mostly. It seemed to work ok against Rothlisberger. Hopefully it will go the same way in the regular season.
      My concern there is that teams will figure out Davis’s defensive schemes long before they learn how to properly defend Chip’s offense.
      It may be that we see a good defense early on and then it starts to decline as the season continues.
      I think Davis will vary it enough to keep opposing OCs guessing, though.

      • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

        I’m putting less and less stock in that Steelers’ game. Entire team was distracted.

        Problem with relying exclusively on blitzing is that our secondary isn’t good enough to hold up on their end. Davis might be the 2nd coming of JJ, but it doesn’t matter, because Bobby, Troy, Lito, Sheldon, Weapon X, etc… aren’t suiting up for the 2014 birds.

        • Kleptolia

          That’s a legitimate concern. The secondary and front 7 need to work together. At times, the front 7 will need to get pressure on the QB to take pressure off the secondary. At other times, the secondary will have to hold coverage for a second more to allow the lineman to get to the QB. If one or the other isn’t up to the task, it could be a long season.
          I don’t think it will be like that. I agree that the Steelers game was not a perfect barometer of the defense, but I have seen some things I have liked all through the preseason.
          I still think this defense will create a lot of turnovers and will limit yards per play.

          • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

            problem there is our secondary just isn’t good enough to do that. Our only playmaker on the back end is a commuter.

          • Kleptolia

            Yeah….
            *sigh* I’m going to write a post in a bit explaining my point of view on a number of things. It will be long and tedious and, in the end, will resolve nothing. But at least I’ll know that I said it.

        • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

          Agree heavily that we cannot put much stock in the Steelers’ game.

    • southy

      Somehow we’re going to end up going back to the JJ-style defense only this time with headier LBs. Did someone just say the word “fastball”?

    • JofreyRice

      yeah, I think that’s the most reasonable hope, considering the situation. I don’t think we’re getting a 6’5 250 pound edge terror any time soon. The Eagles are going to have to rely on Davis’ creativity and the ability of Kendricks to provide more passrush than most 3-4 ILBs generally do. A lot riding on each of those guys.

    • MagatBrackendale

      Aren’t many people still hung up on JJ because they think his defenses blitzed a large percentage of the time? It wasn’t really true, but many think it was. Those who still also think the only way to play defense is to attempt to kill anything that moves, without regard for consequences.

  • Token

    DirectTV keeping Sunday Ticket. Cant believe Sunday Ticket is still gonna be a exclusive thing in 2014. Youd think the NFL would want as much access as possible. This deal goes until 2022.

    Luckily I dont have to worry about it now, but if I move to Arizona its gonna be a issue. DTV started offering the package to certain cities and people in places that cant get DTV service. They would be able to stream the games online. Wonder if they will ever open it up to non DTV customers.

    http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/08/25/nfl-directv-sunday-ticket-deal

    • Adam G

      Was pretty much assumed considering that if DirecTV didn’t keep the package, AT and T could back out of the merger. I had the Sunday Ticket mobile last year bc I live in NYC. I would guess that will be offered to everybody soon.

      • Token

        Good point, forgot about the ATT factor. How was the streaming quality of the ticket?

        • Adam G

          On everything except for a TV its great. When you stream it on your TV its just not great quality. At least that was my experience.

  • aub32

    “The only significant addition up front was Marcus Smith II.”
    ….
    I fail to see how bringing in a coverage LB is a significant addition to the passrush. There was no move made whatsoever to improve the pass rush in 2014.

    • Adam G

      You must be stoked. One of your guys that you said would be an improvement was just cut by the Skins, Rob Jackson.

      • aub32

        Because no player that’s ever been cut by a team is an upgrade to some other team.

        • Adam G

          I don’t know what you are implying. I was just saying you must be real excited. Eagles can now pick up a guy who you said could start for them.

          • aub32

            My apologies. Monday mornings make me cranky, and I misread your post.

  • Eagles4Life

    Dustin Hopkins was just released by the Bills. Someone get Howie on the phone.

    • JosephR2225

      Eagles kicker struggles continue… Tim Howard “takes a break” from the US National Team… Coincidence?

      • Will, Always Shady in CA

        Yep

    • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

      nickname “Tootsie” or “Rainman”?

      • NickS, Combine Warrior

        Rainman. Hopefully he bankrupts Henery, the ratard.

      • Brian

        Footsie

      • MagatBrackendale

        One would involve the wearing of a skirt and heavy makeup. Not a good look on the field.

    • Dominik

      Make this thing work asap. Don’t even let him talk on the phone to anyone, just fly him to Philly. It’s not that long of a flight. Let him compete with the other two. If he sucks – well, then I don’t care. But look at him, at least.

    • Token

      Wait for McManus. Also all cuts do go through waivers. So the Eagles may have no shot at either kicker.

      • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

        Denver needs a kicker now too.

        • MagatBrackendale

          Also Miami, after listening to their recent game.

  • Rockedupeaglesfan

    From my recollection of the old Hard Knocks with the Jets, it’s not surprising Sanchez wouldn’t want to be reunited with Shotty. They didn’t seem to have a warm and fuzzy relationship back then.

  • southy

    Intentional groundings should count as a sack on the stat sheet. It’s silly that they don’t.

    And while I’m at it, if you caught the ball behind the LOS, it’s a rushing play.

    • Token

      INT that are dropped should also count as INTs and result in a turnover.

      • southy

        Thanks for your constructive comment. You are truly asinine.

        • Token

          Batted balls should be sacks too.

          • southy

            Doesn’t have the same or comparable outcome.

          • MagatBrackendale

            Wanted to comment on balls and sacks but remembered I’m supposed to be a lady. (My mother did try her best.)

      • aub32

        Hahaha I was thinking the same thing.

      • OverreacSean Jackson, #culture

        My Monday morning laugh.

      • MagatBrackendale

        But what would that have done to Foles’ stats?

    • Kleptolia

      I don’t agree with the holding calls, but the other two, yes.
      Intentional grounding results in a five yard loss and a loss of down. They often happen while a QB is either going down or about to go down. That’s as good as a sack.
      A holding call is a loss of yardage, but not down. It’s not the same, to me.
      A bubble screen or a swing pass could definitely be considered a run, in my book. It’s no different than an option run.

      • Andy Six Score and Four

        In the NFL, intentional grounding is a 10-yard penalty or a spot foul, whichever is greater. I think.

        • Kleptolia

          Thanks. Good catch!

        • southy

          you’re right

      • southy

        Yeah I’m less sure on the holding calls one. I understand it isn’t precisely the same outcome (no loss of down, even if 10 yards is more than a sack usually gets) but there’s got to be a way to give a pass rusher credit for essentially forcing the hand of the OL.

        • Kleptolia

          Usually his own guy pat his bum. That’s a kind of recognition, I guess.

          • southy

            Maybe they can work that into their contracts as an incentive going forward.

        • MagatBrackendale

          Don’t O linemen basically hold on every play? It would more correctly be forcing the hand of the officials to call it more often.

        • Warhound KnowsHstryWarts&All

          Probably is credited by the team(s) in their grading system.

    • Andy Six Score and Four

      They shouldn’t count as sacks because they are not sacks. However, you can very easily make an argument that they should be tracked seperately, recorded and accounted for when evaluating the effectiveness of a pass rush.

      In fact, exactly that has begun to happen as this very blog built a pass rushing effectiveness table taking in to account batted balls, hurries and the like. It may or may not have included forced holding calls and forced intentional grounding calls.

      I wouldn’t mind those things being formally tracked and conviniently listed at all of the major sites.

      • NickS, Combine Warrior

        This is profound stuff.

        • Andy Six Score and Four

          I’m deep.

          • Dominik

            That’s what he said.

      • 76mustang

        Truth – what’s really important is how the Eagles’ coaches evaluate and grade players by position. They go well beyond the feature stats that allow pundits to vomit some sound/video bite that bolsters their lame analysis. This Eagles D is going to be a lot harder to handle this season.

      • southy

        To be fair, sacks were not a tracked stat for quite some time, and there’s already some amount of judgment that goes into making the call: is the QB intending to pass or run? What about packaged plays with QB run and pass concepts built in? I don’t see it as much of a stretch to say that the pass rusher produced an outcome substantially the same as tackling the QB would have – loss of down and 5-10 yards back – and marking that the same way.

        Either way I’m happy. The whole point of stats is to be able to quantify effectiveness at the game, so if we can do that better, we should.

      • JofreyRice

        I think they sort of borrowed heavily from PFF’s pass-rush-productivity metric, which tracks hurries, hits and sacks. They folded in the batted passes & I agree the intentional groundings should be a part of it, too.

        The big thing is that it probably should be weighted a bit, IMO. In other words, I do think there is something essentially different about actually knocking the snot out of the QB on a blindside hit than just batting the ball down. I think there is a real and noticeable change in the way a QB who is actually being knocked around is playing the position. Mechanically, falling off throws, bailing the pocket, early, changing foot placement, etc. Psychologically, although much harder to prove, I think they play scared. I don’t know exactly how it should be weighted, but I think to make it meaningful you’d have to. A guy that racks up 14 vicious sacks is going to have more effectivness than a guy that bats balls and can’t ever close the deal on a sack, even if summing up their unweighted contributions produces the same #, in the end.

        • OldDuckMcDoc

          I’d love some form of all encompassing pass rush productivity rating that sort of stuff. Beyond the weightings you referenced, you could even weight sacks according to their difficulty. Beating a double team should obviously count for more than being unblocked, and similarly *not* beating a double team shouldn’t be counted as failing to the same extent as not beating a RB.

          Kempski’s tribute to Anthony Spencer gives a reasonable overview of the myriad ways that someone can produce impressive sack numbers without doing anything special:

          http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/7/18/4536202/anthony-spencer-the-next-lawrence-taylor

          Also, I think it would be nice if a pass-rush-productivity metric penalised those who are utterly negligent with regards run responsibilities but that’s just because I still hate Babin.

        • southy

          Some sacks are more vicious than others.

  • eaglesfan, 20-win failure

    “a person with knowledge of Sanchez’s thinking told USA TODAY Sports on Sunday.” seriously? i know sports journalism isn’t held to Murrow/Cronkite standards but this is a stretch even for USA Today. is it that hard to just call and ask Sanchez?

    • southy

      Probably because Sanchez did or would say something like “No comment.” That or turn on the tape recorder that has his “I want to start but right now I’m focused on helping my team and helping Nick” response.

      • eaglesfan, 20-win failure

        i’ll take those generic quotes over ‘someone who knows the mind of Sanchez thinks he’ll do this…” that’s asinine.

        • aub32

          I have a buddy who went to USC and gave Sanchez a high five once. I think he could be a source as “someone who used to be in very close proximity with Sanchez” thinks……

    • MagatBrackendale

      I believe there was a previous article which also said that under no circumstances would Sanchez want to play for Schottenheimer ever again. Still, you’re right about bad journalism.

  • billy the kid

    @tommy lawlor…”he hasnt forced Oregon players on us”?? Jeff Maehl is a prominent wide receiver for us. How is he not forced?

    • Andy Six Score and Four

      You and I have very different definitions of the word, “prominent”.

      • MagatBrackendale

        C’mon now, Andy. This is a newbie with his first comment. Maybe he likes Maehl or maybe he was trying to be sarcastic. He needs a little grace period, right?

  • PaoliBulldog

    Statistics always evolve. Only recently did we realize that batting a pass down at the LOS is a quantifiable skill.

    • https://twitter.com/richcolton RichC, brings duck to cockfigh

      haha. yeah and sometimes its relevant (sacks invented for Deacon Jones) sometimes its not (Mike Mamula, hurries)

      • PaoliBulldog

        Baseball still hasn’t lived down the GWRBI.

    • eaglesfan, 20-win failure

      Let’s just make sure we score well on the “Never again getting gashed by someone the likes of Matt Asiata” stat.

  • JofreyRice

    Curry might be able to really boost the passrush, even from just a situational role. That sack he had on Rothliseberlgler was fantastic. Walked the guard back and kept his feet moving the entire time. Just pure power, burst and balance, and not everyone is taking Ben down when they get to him. Still would prefer a more prominent role, but I think he can disrupt a lot, even on just 3rd down.

    • aub32

      I think we all agree that Curry could improve our pass rush with more playing time. I think some of us doubt that he will see the field much more in 2014 than he did in 2013.

      • JofreyRice

        I think they definitely gotta get him on the field on all 3rd downs, and maybe even throw him out there occasionally on 2nd and first, if Davis thinks they might pass and can turn Vinny loose. He played about 300 odd snaps last year, and was able to post 5 sacks. How many is he going to put up with 500 snaps? 8 or 9 for a guy that’s only seeing 50% of the snaps on D? That’d be about the ceiling of what you’d expect from any situational passrusher in the NFL, and it strikes me as quite realistic.

        • aub32

          I agree with everything you said. I just don’t know if David will put him out there given what I have seen and heard thus far. My strategy for the season would be to put up a few points early and force teams to pass. Then line up in nickel with Cole, Curry, Cox, and Graham. Have Kendricks and Barwin as your LBs while mixing in MSII

          • OregonDucker

            This is what Chip has done in the past. With Bair and “War Pig” he can now really pressure the QB up the middle, and unleash Graham and Vinny on the outside. Throw in Wolf/Allen/Jenkins on a safety blitz and look out.

        • MagatBrackendale

          Davis just said in the article that only counting sacks is not enough. The “dumping on his head”, with intentional grounding counts. Previously it has been discussed that batted passes count, hurries count. Causing the ball to “come out ugly” counts. Anything that disrupts the opponents offense, without being called for touching, counts.

    • NickS, Combine Warrior

      “and not everyone is taking Ben down when they get to him.”

      Not unless he forces it

      • Somnambulator

        I see what u did there

    • Clamdigger

      Did you see how he brought him down? He hooked his left arm around Ben’s leg and drug him down while basically being held. Great play. I want to say Graham forced him to step up and Curry capitalized from there.

    • himbison

      With the new rule emphasis teams should pass more and Billy D should account for that and get Curry and BG on the field much more

      • Cyrus Robinson

        The sad/interesting thing is, had we stayed in the 43, we would’ve had insanely good pass rush. Since we moved to the 34, Cox, Graham and Curry lost some effectiveness. I’m not so sure going to the 34 was worth it. It’s hard to argue that many other teams would have a better line than Thornton, Cox, Graham, and Curry.

    • Amar, CB who bought in

      Did you see Graham just bullrush the LT into the pocket ? He needs very little technique, just raw power gets his job done.

  • Max Lightfoot

    Casey Matthews, the Leonard Zelig of the Philadelphia Eagles.

  • cliff h-MOAR white goons

    don’t forget the safety blitz…Davis “I’m sending the Wolff”
    .
    wanna feel beeter about Eags D…can feel the pain in comment section

    http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2014/8/24/6064099/dallas-cowboys-dress-rehearsal-miami-dolphins-tony-romo-tyler-patmon-dez-bryant

  • JosephR2225

    Cardinals are reportedly releasing Jay Feely. Make it happen, Howie.

  • Kleptolia

    Chip Kelly, Oregon Ducks, and Bias:

    This is the equivalent of me becoming naked, handing you BB guns, spreading my arms wide, and saying: “Fire.”

    Yes, Chip Kelly has an Oregon bias. This is a topic of debate for many, but for me it is a clear cut fact. I have looked at it since last year, thought about it, and now I am going to wade out into mid-stream and, most likely, drown while trying to explain/defend it.

    Cliff Harris. A lot of you might not remember him. He actually got onto the Eagles preseason roster a few years ago. He had been unemployed for a bit after having been let go from the Oregon Ducks football team after a series of thunderously stupid off-field decisions.
    The thing is, he was a playmaker. Over in Philadelphia, you were completely unaware of the cry of dismay that rang out through the streets of Eugene after his dismissal. Cliff Harris was Eugene’s Brandon Boykin. Every time he hit the field, something happened. He intercepted passes. He returned them for touchdowns. He fielded punts. He returned them for touchdowns. He talked a game that could only exist in somebody’s mind…but then he managed to put that game out on the field.
    But the coaches weren’t playing him. Where many wanted him to start, he was coming off of the bench. Oregon’s DC Nick Allioti said: “Cliff makes plays, but the funny thing is, he doesn’t know why he makes them. Sometimes he comes off the field after playing the right defense and he doesn’t even know why it was the right defense.”
    That’s not exactly what he said, but it’s really close.
    Here’s the point: even if a guy is a playmaker, a guy who “flashes”(a word I have come to hate) often, that doesn’t mean he’s a guy who will play for Chip Kelly.

    Will Murphy. I was surprised Will Murphy made any NFL roster. I didn’t think that even Chip would pick him up. You might not realize this, but Will Murphy wasn’t even a big time player at Oregon. He looked slow, a bit weak, had good hands, …and that’s it. His biggest production was on special teams. Not as a return man, but as a blocker/defender. He’s a guy who could make white wallpaper look like camouflage. His existence on the football field was always peripheral. He was never in the play, always around it. Yet, he was always there. The word out of practices was that he was one of the most consistent, determined, and hardworking guys that anybody knew. He also was a student of the game.
    If you love football and you work harder at it than anybody else, Chip Kelly just might develop a soft spot for you, it would seem.

    Casey Matthews. His last name is a monument, his spider graph is a fly speck. This is a guy who came to Oregon undersized for the college game. He left undersized for the NFL. The only thing that kept this guy going was willpower. He has plenty of that. He is also smart. It’s sad that such a huge defensive brain is trapped in such a disproportionately tiny NFL body. For those of us who watch Oregon football, it didn’t matter. It still doesn’t. He stopped play after play at Autzen stadium. He racked up serious tackle numbers, caused and recovered fumbles, and even intercepted a few passes. During the National Championship game against Auburn, with the Tigers driving for a seal-it-up score, Matthews chased down Cam Newton from behind and punched the ball out of his hand, giving Oregon the ball and a chance to tie the game. Which they did.
    During the preseason game against New England, after Mallet scored a walk-in touchdown, (then) Eagles linebacker Jason Phillips could be seen talking to Casey Matthews after the play. It seemed that Casey was giving him pointers on where he should have been on that play.
    If you watch the second half of the Steelers game, Matthews can often be seen. No, he doesn’t make any huge plays or bold statements, but he’s always where he’s supposed to be. Meh? Definitely. But it’s the kind of meh that keeps you in favor with Chip.

    Jeff Maehl. The Maehlman. He always delivers. While at Oregon, he became Oregon’s all-time leading receiver. He caught everything thrown at him. His catches ranged from mundane to spectacular. He made a jumping, diving catch on a pass that he actually tipped in the air as he was jumping and then corralled it into his body before hitting the endzone turf. It was against USC and it was magic.
    Jeff Maehl will never be a big-time receiving threat in the NFL. He is a bit too slow. He isn’t a tall-frame guy. He isn’t a beastly physical presence. But he has good hands. And if you watched him stiff-arm Shazier to the ground last Thursday night, you know that he’s good for a few yards after the catch now and then, too.

    Kenjon Barner. Ran a 4.5 at the combine. Ran a 4.38 at his pro day. I don’t know how fast he truly is, but he certainly looks faster than 4.5. He was never going to make it in Carolina. Not only are they stacked at RB, but that scheme is not a good fit for a guy like Barner. Barner needs the cutback lanes created in the spread offense to truly do what he does best. I, too, like Henry Josey. If he makes the roster over Barner, I won’t complain. Remember this, though: Barner had barely a day of preparation for the Pittsburgh game. He was going over the playbook with Deuce Staley via telephone in order to learn what he was supposed to do on various plays. He went into the game and had 32 yards on seven carries. One of those was a six-yard loss (on further review, that was not a well-blocked play). He gained 24 yards after contact and made 4 tacklers miss. Pro Football Focus had him rated as one of the most efficient performers of that game. If he makes the team, there are reasons other than just “he’s a Duck.”

    Chip Kelly has brought an entirely new scheme to both sides of the ball in Philly. He has also brought a new culture to the organization as a whole. His vision of football is a team-based one. He believes that a team made up of talented superstars who all believe themselves to be superior to one another can be beaten by a team of lesser talented players who play as one man. The guys working the hardest and playing the smartest will win more often than lose.
    This is not to say that he doesn’t value talent. He looks for the most talented guys available, as long as they buy in to his over-arching philosophy of team first, scheme first. Desean Jackson is a phenomenally talented athlete, but he was shown the door.
    Don’t think for one second that Chip would not have done the same to Shady if Shady had acted shady. (Heh.) The vision only works if everybody sees it the same way.
    The guys on the team who came from Oregon know what that vision is. They see it. Having them around might help others see it, too. It’s more than winning a Super Bowl. That’s every NFL players’ vision. It’s how to go about winning the Super Bowl that really snaps the whole thing into focus. “The habits reflect the mission” is just another way of saying “Win the Day.” Or “God is in the details.” The Oregon guys know what the details are. The offense is different, the verbiage is different, the passing routes are different (probably a Schurmur/West Coast influence) but the concepts remain the same.
    The guys from Oregon have the right habits.

    Chip does care about defense, by the way. However, he cares about it differently. His goal for the defense is to get the offense as many possessions as possible. Many have been confused as to why Billy Davis would not worry about the dearth of sacks coming from the defense. His responses sound like a Chip Kelly defensive gameplan. He doesn’t care that the quarterback went down as much as he cares about getting the QB to move around. Make the guy uncomfortable. Make him force a throw. Get a pick. Get a fumble. Get the ball back. That’s what Kelly defines as an aggressive defense. Total yards are not as important to Kelly as yards per play. Why not? Because if you make the opposing offense run more plays to get to the endzone, you increase your odds of getting a turnover. The other team can get yards, move the ball, but it becomes more dangerous. That’s why it is so important to limit explosion plays. Patrick Chung couldn’t limit explosion plays last year and he was let go, despite his status as a former Duck.

    Of course, Chip would love to get 3-and-outs every defensive stand, but barring that, just get the ball back.
    If Billy Davis can get the mirrored 3-4 look down, the defense will look better. Looking at preseason games, it would seem he has most of the pieces, except maybe at outside linebacker. Let’s hope Marcus Smith comes of age before mid-season, otherwise…there’s always next year. Just kidding. I am truly set in the idea that the defense will be in good shape this year. I think that they will be in the top ten in yards per play and turnovers. (Skipping record.)

    I think several former Ducks will eventually be cut from the current Eagles roster. I would not be surprised to see Murphy go. He’s done what he needed to. He practiced hard and set the tone Chip Kelly wants. Casey Matthews may also go. He may also stay, based on his special teams value. I think he goes.
    I think Jeff Maehl stays. That’s going out on a limb because I really don’t know, but he is good for bubble screens and possession plays.
    I think Barner makes the team. He has more skill than some are willing to give him credit for.
    In the end, there is more to the value of a football player than what you see on the field. Chip Kelly keeps some guys for their talent. They are called “starters.” He keeps some guys for their example. They are called “bench.” Just as it made Oregon fans howl and whine, it will make some of you crazy with grief.
    But, man, that’s just Chip being Chip.

    • cliff h-MOAR white goons

      i hit more, lost interests, but gave you an upvote for effort.

      • Kleptolia

        Thanks, man. Much obliged.

        • cliff h-MOAR white goons

          also, because i’m sure i agree with you. think people are making mountain out of a molehill.

          • Kleptolia

            …and it shall be called: Mount Molehill.

    • Mr. Wu

      “Eagles linebacker Jason Phillips could be seen talking to Casey Matthews after the play. It seemed that Casey was giving him pointers on where he should have been on that play.”

      that right there was a good enough reason to cut him^^

    • Amar, CB who bought in

      You lost me at “It seemed that Casey was giving him pointers on where he should have been on that play.”
      You’re drawing some huge conclusions after a bad play based on body language.

      • Kleptolia

        You might well be right. Sorry for dipping into speculation there.

  • Amish

    When are Howie and Chip going to start facing questions about doing exactly what they said they would not do: draft based on need. We wasted an early 2nd rounder on Jaiquawn Jarrett because we had a need at safety and, so far, we’ve wasted a late 1st rounder on Smith because we needed more pass rush. I understand it is early in Smith’s career, but 1) the Eagles desperately needed an improved pass rush and needed it NOW, and 2) unless you are a defense loaded with talent like the 49ers or Seahawks, the expectation in the NFL is that your first round defenders will produce heavily, if not outright start. I hesitate to use the B word so early with Smith, but more should be written about the front office’s failings with this pick.

  • Brennan Hildebrandt

    I agree that stats are misleading. Let’s say your sacks are coming from first and second down and can’t get off the field on third down which was our problem last year then what’s the point. Stats are great and all but if your pass rush isn’t consistent on every down i could care less. I would take 37 sacks in a season that are on third downs and are getting the Defense off the field and in key situations during the game then 60 sacks in a season that are on first and second but then your giving up third downs constantly or the team is up big so the other team has no choice but throw ball which allows the defense to pin their ears back and get after the quarter back.The stats don’t tell the whole story which Is why I agree with Bill Davis about watching the tape. You also have to account for the turnovers that we had and the scheme that we play as well. Look at the 2011 season we lead the league in sacks but got gashed in the running game badly because of the wide 9 so you can’t do everything perfectly plus we still gave up big plays and the sacks which we were getting were very misleading because we weren’t getting them when it was 3rd down all the time in key situations. I don’t care if were dead last in sacks as long as were one of the top teams in turnovers and 3rd down defense and can stop drives consistently even if it’s unorthodox if so you wont here me complaining if there stats in some areas are god awful.

  • Jerry Pomroy

    Now we’re talking. Gimme some dime packages with Kendricks coming free and Jenkins cheating up behind to cover his responsibilities. Again, I still say that blitz packages are a very good way to utilize our athletes such as Kendricks & Smith. It’ll also give Smith some splash plays to build confidence off of as he progresses in his development.

  • mark baren

    talking about oregon… look at cincinnati, four starters from that school