All-22: Will Run Game Change With Foles?

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Back in 2009, Chip Kelly was speaking at a coaches clinic about Oregon’s zone-read game, and he said something that applies to this weekend’s matchup with the Bucs.

“This may sound like a contradiction, but we do not read anything,” Kelly said. “When you read, you become uncertain. We want the ball in the running back’s hands. We do not want the quarterback carrying the ball. The option can put the ball in his hands, but the defense can force it out of his hands. We want the quarterback to give the ball unless he cannot.


"If the running back is continually getting tackled by the defensive end, the quarterback should be pulling the ball."

Through four-and-a-half games, Michael Vick kept the ball on read-option plays eight times. But he made defenses pay when they didn't account for him, picking up 122 yards (15.3 YPC).

Keeping that in mind, the big question this week is: How will the run game change if Nick Foles is the quarterback?

The company line at the NovaCare Complex this week has been that it won't. Coaches and players maintain that the run plays will remain the same and say that Foles is capable of taking advantage if defenses don't honor the threat of him running the ball. We already broke down the main issue with the Eagles' running game last week in an earlier post. It had more to do with Jason Kelce and the Giants' interior linemen than anything else.

But let's look at how things work with Vick, compared to Foles.

***

One of the major principles of the Eagles' run game is that the quarterback often accounts for an unblocked defender. This isn't something they run occasionally. It is their bread and butter and a concept they've had success with all season long.

Here, they leave Jason Pierre-Paul unblocked.

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Pierre-Paul stays outside, Jason Peters gets up on the linebacker, and McCoy has a nice lane for a 7-yard gain.

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Vick carries out his fake, and Pierre-Paul is completely out of the play.

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***

The issue arises when the defense says to the QB: Go ahead and keep the ball. We're stopping McCoy.

"Some teams would want the quarterback to run the ball," Jason Kelce said. "It depends on what you’re trying to get to. A lot of teams, what they’ll do is they’ll crash the end because they want the quarterback to keep the ball every single time."

For example, here Mathias Kiwanuka is left unblocked. But he's just going to tackle McCoy and pay no mind to who has the ball.

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The linebacker "scrapes" down behind Kiwanuka. If Vick hands it off, McCoy is tackled for a loss. If Vick keeps it, the linebacker is waiting for him.

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On this particular play, because of Vick's athleticism and Peters' ability to adjust, the offense still picked up 4 yards. The Giants geared up to stop the run and had the right call on, but the Eagles were still able to gain positive yards.

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"I think it’s definitely a different threat when Mike’s at quarterback from the ability to run the ball," McCoy said. "I mean, that’s obvious. And Nick is still a good quarterback for sure, but I think there’s a difference. As a defense, if I had to pick a guy to stop as a running threat, obviously it would be Mike. In that sense, yeah, I think it changes, but we still run the same plays."

***

In the preseason and against the Giants, the Eagles did use the same run plays, or at least what appeared to be the same run plays when Foles was in the game.

Here's a read play from Sunday when the Eagles were in the red zone. The Giants use the same scrape technique we showed in the previous play.

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Pierre-Paul is left unblocked. He'll crash in on McCoy, while the linebacker fills in behind him.

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Pierre-Paul runs right past Foles, who still has the ball. My favorite part of this play was that the camera person seemed to believe there was no way Foles was keeping the ball.

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Where's the ball? Where's Foles? Hello? You awake up there?

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And finally, the camera person catches up. Foles made the right read. He's not going to average 15+ yards per carry. But he got 3 on this play.

"I don’t think it really changes much," Todd Herremans said. "We’re still running the same plays in practice. We still have the option to read with Nick. He’s not a big stiff board in the backfield or anything like that. You just need enough to keep the defense honest so that they can’t just crash everybody off the back side."

But what if they do crash the end down on McCoy consistently, forcing Foles to keep it?

"If he does and we're able to get 5 yards a pop, then that’d be fine. Two runs, we’ll have a first down."

I asked McCoy the same question.

"A lot of the zone reads are not all just reads," he said. "They're not all just the quarterback can keep it. Just how a defense can draw up things to get certain matchups where they want to have Nick try and get the ball and keep it out of my hands, as an offense, we have the same thing. We can draw up things. It’s just a chess match. They make a play, they make a stunt. We do the same thing. We’ve got our ways of adjusting to that."

And that really is the key this week. At Oregon, Kelly built a reputation for being able to adjust his offensive scheme on the fly. He saw the Giants keep Kelce off-balance and limit the Eagles' run game last week. And he knows Foles does not pose the same threat as Vick as a runner.

This week, he'll have to show he's prepared with a Plan B if the Bucs do the same thing as the Giants. The guess here is we'll still see some zone reads, especially early in the game, but more than likely, Kelly will add some new wrinkles.

"I think Nick can still be effective running those plays," Evan Mathis said. "There’s obviously multiple options for us on plays. If they’re taking one away and leaving one open, then that’s what you have to go with."

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  • Brent E. Sulecki

    Vick sucks

    • knighn

      Lol. He doesn’t. That’s the problem: he just doesn’t play at his highest level consistently.

      • BirdGang

        Alright question. Do you guys think Foles is the answer? Or do you just hate Vick so much that you would be willing to take any QB over him?

        • Adam

          Has nothing to do with hating Vick. We know what Vick is, and we know he won’t be here next year and isn’t the long term answer. For some people, they want to see if the other 2 guys on the roster might be.

          • aub32

            That’s true of some, and it’s a valid point that has it’s pros and cons. However, some people just hate Vick and time need not be wasted trying to discuss anything.

          • Adam

            And at the same time there are guys will stand up for Vick no matter what he does :) There’s just as many on one side as the other.

          • aub32

            I disagree as it pertains to the commenters on this site. There are Vick defenders, but they are critical of Vick as well. I have seen several people say things like Vick is a bottom 3 QB in the league. That’s ridiculous. However, I haven’t seen anyone claim Vick is a top 5 QB, even top 10. The argument for Vick has always been that he’s the best QB on the team, which he actually did go out and prove.

          • BirdGang

            True…If you are going to hate Vick…hate him for what he does on the field. If you are going to love Vick then support him…but dont be blind to his short comings.

          • aub32

            Who is blind of his short comings? Who is on here posting Vick is a top 10 QB who makes the greatest throws. The problem is if you say one good thing about Vick, you are immediately bombarded by haters who bring up things that have nothing to do with the point that was made.

          • #7

            Tell’em!!

            It’s a crime on here to support our own starting QB. People get on me about my handle. I used this handle because I was chiefin on that sticky icky one night and thought it was funny.

          • BirdGang

            True…you are 100% right.

          • #7

            It’s a new offense folks. We all seem to forget that on here. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Foles struggle in this game if we can’t run the football, which is the identity of our team now.

            I do think that some of the stuff that is said on here is personal towards Vick and it is obvious. Some people are genuine with their criticism. IMO opinion, Vick has so much ability that he does not have a ceiling, even at 33. A lot of you said that Vick “has lost a step”, yet he leads all QBs in rushing with ease. Barring injury, he should put up close to 4000 yds of total offense.

            I give Foles credit. He takes what the defense gives him…dink and dunk all day, but that does not work in the playoffs and we do not have the defense to carry him…like KC will have to do Alex Smith.

            Vick and Big Ben are so much alike IMO as far as their playing style and you have to take the good with the bad. They are going to hold the ball at times and I’m fine with that. His decision making has been waaaaayyyy better this year and he’s taking care of the football. If we make the playoffs, I want Vick in because the man could get hot in the playoffs…thats what happened in the last few playoffs with Flacco, Eli, and Rodgers. Those teams barely made it in.

            My only complaint with Vick is that he’s being a bit too careful due to the so called “short leash” and fans just wanting something different. Players hear the boos and the talk and I imagine that it could get to them. And he needs to checkdown to McCoy more often.

          • BirdGang

            Good post!! But I wish Vick did check the ball down more. Esp to Shady. We need to get him more involved in the passing game. Let Bryce and Polk get more carries but Shady will still get the ball.

          • #7

            Exactly. #25 needs the ball in his hands. The Vick scrambles need to be a last resort. I feel like, for the most part, he’s done it as his last resort. I’m sure people will disagree though..

          • GEagle

            I don’t think he has checked down enough at all. I can think of plenty of times where I’m begging him to check down to shady and Vick takes off

          • #7

            Yeah you’re right on that.

          • LeQuan Glover

            There’s this myth about Nick Foles that’s annoyingly persistent: “He’s a dink and dive player”. You don’t average over 7 YPA in College or in your NFL career by being a “dink and dive” player.

            http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/nick-foles-1.html

            http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoleNi00.htm

            The reality is is that Foles makes intermediate passes(10-25 yrds) on several occasions. He’s just not stupid enough to throw it into double or triple coverage, just because he can.

            http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PennCh01.htm

            The Jets had crap next to Pennington, and so he became a maligned QB. But the reality was that Pennington was good, really good.

            Give me a combination of size and arm strength, with that kind of QB intelligence and I think a team will win a vast majority of it’s games. Provided the defense, O-line and Special teams aren’t in the crapper, which they still are.

            Foles is maligned for the same reason Pennington was in his career. The Eagles are crap, therefore Vick is their best “chance” to squeeze out one or two wins. Except, that’s not true at all as we saw versus the Giants. I want my QB that can make hot reads, get the ball out of his hand fast and make plays. That’s Foles. Vick’s plays are inconsistent, which if we’re to believe Chip Kelly’s own words is the very last thing he wants in a QB. So go Team Foles, rip apart the Buccs and give Chip game tape. The offense has been “stopped” since the first half of the Chargers game, sometimes temporarily coming to life.

            60 Minutes of excellent football changes the entire conversation(at least for the moment), then we’ll go back to blaming Foles for everyone else’s woes.

          • Nah__Roots

            Wow. Someone finally made the Vick to Big Ben comparison. Completely agree.

          • #7

            Big Ben gets praised for holding the ball while Vick gets hammered. Their styles are the same. Only difference is that Ben had a great defense with a HOF D cordinator running that defense. No excuses though. Ben has the rings and can’t argue with that. I was just comparing their styles of play.

            If Ben played for the Eagles and held the ball longer, no one would say anything.

          • Nah__Roots

            Ben’s SB XL performance: 9/21, 123 yards, 2 picks, 0 TDs. Athletes will forever be unfairly evaluated by championships.

          • BirdGang

            See that is what I dont understand. How do we know we wont be around next year? Which parts of his game have you seen decline so much to where he isnt a starting QB? His legs? Ok he might not be as fast as he once was…but the D still has to account for him.
            Romo has the same inconsistencies…but do you think Dallas fans are calling for him to be benched?

          • Adam

            Well first off, it’s week 5 and Vick is already out a game. So that’s one reason. Second, new head coaches don’t normally go all in with a 34 year old QB unless it’s someone like Brady or Manning. They want to bring in their ownguy and start fresh. Chip couldn’t do that this year with the terrible QB class in the draft, but next year looks much better.

          • #7

            Not a gurantee. They thought Joey Harrington would be great and he wasn’t. If it’s not a once in a generation type QB, I’m not convinced and none of those guys coming in are that

          • Adam

            Vick is 4-10 in games he starts and finishes over the last 2 years. It’s not exactly going to take a one in a generation QB to replace that.

          • #7

            Also, you’re one of the main guys that complain about our roster. It’s a team game sir, and Vick has his part in this.

            “Vick is 4-10″

            Didn’t know he played defense, offense, and special teams

          • Adam

            Neither does Foles and or anything other QB we bring in, so whats your point? Our defense is bad now and will be for another few years. Which is why Vick at 33 isn’t the answer now, and he certainly won’t be at 35. You go with a younger guy who isn’t in decline. Vick hasn’t exactly set the bar high for wins. A rookie QB couldn’t do much worse than 1-3 this year.

          • #7

            LOL ok. I’m not in the mood today. You win. No one ever has a point, but you lol.

          • aub32

            You don’t go younger when still in contention. If we are 2-7, then I’m on board, but with the schedule we face I want the best players on the field.

          • Adam

            Nothing I saw last week against the Giants leads me to believe that Vick is clearly better at running this offense than Foles. They do it in different ways for sure, but they both put up points.

          • aub32

            Foles did it with much shorter fields. Also, what happens when we face a better secondary? With Mac gone, the passing game is really hurting. Vick is much better for this team’s run game. Vick’s long game offsets Foles short game. So even if they are equal in passing, Vick helps out more rushing. That’s why he’s better for this offense.

          • #7

            So what is it that you want Adam? There’s not any Mannings just walking around out there that we can just sign off the street

          • Adam

            What do I want? I want what any real Eagles fan would want. I want to find out who my franchise QB of the future is. I know it’s not Vick. So I want to know if it’s Foles or Barkley. If it’s not, fine, then we know what we need to draft.

          • #7

            Competition was wide open.

          • anon

            People try and act like that didn’t happen all offseason.

          • #7

            Straight up crickets from Adam on that one

          • knighn

            *cough cough* 49ers *cough cough*

          • aub32

            Kaep showed that he was better than Smith in almost every category. He also brought a running threat that Smith could never match. They did not make that move to “see what they had”. They made that move because they wanted the best players on the field. If Foles were better than Vick, then he would have won the QB competition, and I would want him on the field. How have so many of you forgotten that there was a competition?

          • knighn

            God: that was like so two months ago! Don’t you know NFL stands for “Not For Long”?!

            I keed. I keed. Here’s what I’m looking at: in Vick’s last 2.5 games he has been far less than consistent. In those games he has brought all of 1 TD, total (including rushing TDs) against the Chiefs, Broncos and Giants. Now the Chiefs have a very, very good D. We can’t say that about the Broncos and we definitely can’t say that about the Giants right now.

            So, what does Folesy do in his limited appearances? In his 1 drive against the Broncos he leads them right down the field for a TD. He scores another two TDs on a short field against the Giants. Meanwhile, the Vick-led Eagles have been struggling in the Red Zone. So in a little more than a half-game of play, Foles gets 3 TDs and in the last 2.5 games Vick has 1. What looks better?

            Even worse: Vick has been inaccurate. What does Chip Kelly say is his #1 trait for a QB? Not “mobility”. “Repetitive Accuracy”. I said it before the season: even if Vick wins this competition, he is a QB in decline… (and NO, I’m not talking about how fast Vick runs, I’m talking about how consistently productive he can be). Foles, meanwhile should continue to get better as he develops. At what point does Foles become a better option than Vick? Two years from now? One year from now? Now?! Never?! Let’s find out. The Bucs have one of the best defenses in the NFL: if Foles wins and looks good doing it, expect more snaps. If he doesn’t: expect more Vick.

          • aub32

            ?????? So TDs is the only stat now? Vick had a gorgeous deep ball to Djax. Then he had a fantastic 14 yar run to get the Eagles on the 1. Shady then takes it in for an easy score and Vick gets no credit. He had more rushing yards in a half than the entire Giants team, but he gets no credit there either. For all this talk of decline, Vick is playing better than he has the past two years. Is he missing some throws? Yes, but so do all QBs. He isn’t fumbling or throwing picks in the RZ. Runs are getting stuffed. Passes are getting dropped. Yes he missed Avant. I won’t kill him for missing one pass. Just like I won’t kill Foles for missing the TD to Coop. In my opinion Vick had a bad game against the Chiefs. The Broncos game got out of hand, but he clearly didn’t get much help from the O line or the TEs. He looked like he was about to take over that Giants game before he pulled his hammy, and he likely would have the same success with the great field position that was given to Foles.

          • knighn

            !!!!!! Did you really just try to minimize the importance of TDs? And you are assuming Vick would have had the same success in a short field even though the Vick-led Eagles have struggled with Red Zone efficiency through 2011 and 2012 and 2013… The yards that the Eagles have been piling up the last few years haven’t meant as much as they should have since they haven’t been scoring the TDs.
            And TDs isn’t the only important stat there. Remember Chip Kelly’s favorite: Repetitive Accuracy.

          • nicksaenz1

            But it’s okay for people to point out that Vick is 5-1 when starting and finishing games against the NFC East? Can’t have it both ways.

          • #7

            You got the wrong person on that one bro

          • #7

            But the “Vick is 5-1 when starting and finishing games against the NFC East” point is true.

            I assume you will say it’s not and find a way to minimize it.

          • aub32

            Ideally I would like to see Vick here for one more year. I just don’t see the point in keeping Foles if we draft a QB, especially with Chip spending a pick for Barkley. Vick, if he continues to perform well can keep this offense going and teach the new guy the ropes. Also, like you stated. Vick will likely miss a game or 3 so the rookie will get to see at least some action in his first year.

          • anon

            I don’t care vick or foles next year — i’d prefer not to have to draft a qb. If vick continues to progress in the scheme then keep him. if he starts to regress get rid of him. But it’s the first year of the scheme for everyone.

          • #7

            One thing I’ve learned about being an Eagles fan, losing is not tolerated by the majority of the people. I see a lot of folks on here saying that want a rookie QB and want to rebuild, but you’ll be right back here saying that he sucks (and we need a new QB!!) if he doesn’t perform lol.

          • Juice

            Yes, they are.

          • aub32

            No they’re not. All rational Cowboys fans know Romo isn’t perfect, but they also know nothing better is walking on that field anytime soon. That’s what you fail to understand.

          • #7

            YEP

          • G_WallyHunter

            Precisely, nothing against Vick, it’s just a matter of the unknown

          • aub32

            I don’t understand the unknown argument while still in contention. Matthew Tucker was unknown. Should we have kept and started him over McCoy because we are unlikely to win a SB this year? How about Knott over Ryans or starting Kruger. Foles is unknown, but what we do know is that he’s not as good as Vick in this offense. This was shown and proven. So what else is there that needs to be known?

          • G_WallyHunter

            If Vicks healthy I’d rather he was in, not arguing that. But if the opportunity arises for Foles to go in (like, say, this week), we all want to see it, we all want to know this unknown, we all want it to be confirmed that Foles is crap.

            It was still unknown last week, but then Foles comes in and shows some hope, well aware it was the Giants, that’s why this week is so exciting..

          • #7

            Well it’s easier to show some hope against an 0-4 team. Now the Bucs? These guys record should be overlooked because of their defense. I hope Foles wins the game, but I think he will struggle IMO

          • G_WallyHunter

            Same, and if he does then we will know more.
            All I’m saying, I want TO SEE the unknown, I don’t want the unknown to suddenly start. this weeks a great opportunity for that. Great matchup to test Foles.
            I’m not some crazy Vick/Foles supporter, I really don’t care who’s in as long as there are wins, I just agree with Adam in saying I am intrigued by the unknown, whether Vick is healthy or not.

          • #7

            The “unknown” needs to win jobs, not have them handed to them

          • G_WallyHunter

            Oh ya for sure, and we’ll see how that goes Sunday. I hope Foles seizes the opportunity (not starting job, I have Vick in fantasy, need him back lol). that front-7 and secondary heavily goes against the chances of Foles doing really well

            let’s hope CK playcalling is crazy good, helps avoid things against this stingy D and helps Foles manage the game, helps avoid things that the TB D will excel at ( that goes for any coach in any game lol)

          • #7

            “I hope Foles seizes the opportunity”

            Meaning what? Take over as the starter although we know that the offense will be less dynamic and create a QB controversy? A distraction we don’t need with a first year HC?

          • G_WallyHunter

            notice the parantheses after saying not the starting job…
            seizes opportunity meaning has a great game and gets a win, seizes the opportunity to showcase his skills, shows us something positive rather than something negative. In no way was I referring to seizing the starting job…

            We all saw CK in presser, he wants Vick to start no matter what, Foles really would have to go 50/50 with 10 TDs to get starting job..

          • #7

            Just a question bro. You have the right to your opinion man. It’s all good. We just need to win!

          • G_WallyHunter

            Hey i was just explaining lol.. I don’t want to be taken for one of those crazy Foles supporters (many on this site)… I don’t have any majorly critical opinions on either QBs other than what we know, get wins and I’m happy.
            E-A-G-L-E-S

          • #7

            right on

          • BlindChow

            Foles playing lights out would be best thing for this team. No need to feel threatened by that.

          • #7

            It will play out on the field BlindChow.

          • aub32

            That’s very true, but it’s ok for fans to be realisitic. telling yourself that Foles will be great and take us to a SB one day does not make it true. We have seen Foles’ strengths and weaknesses to this point. He may fix some. He mau never fix others. We can form realistic expectations and just hope that he meets them.

          • GEagle

            This is laughable…we haven’t seen a damn thing about FOles yet..we literally know practically nothing about who he will be….

          • aub32

            So last year didn’t happen? Preseason didn’t happen? Do you even pay attention to anything or just make stuff up as you go? We know a lot about Foles. Kelly knows infinitely more. Can Foles still improve? Yes. Could he stay the same? Yes. Could he regress once teams make him the focus? Yes. All of these are possibilities, but to suggest we know nothing about him is asinine. We know what Foles’ strengths are to this point. We know his weaknesses. We know where he needs to improve, and we know there are some things he will never be physcially capable of. I hope Foles turns into this great player you think he is but let’s not forget how you thought he would mop the floor with Vick in the QB competition. Then he got beaten soundly and you went MIA for a month.

          • BlindChow

            When did I ever say anything like that? I was only responding to the assertion that Foles “seizing the opportunity” was somehow a bad thing. Controversial, I know.

            I just want wins. The worst thing about these QB discussions is the abject tribalism. If I disagree with a statement made by a “Vick supporter,” I’m immediately grouped in with the “Foles supporters” and accused of saying things I don’t even agree with. And vice versa.

            The idea that I don’t care whether Foles or Vick is the QB is apparently a completely foreign concept to some people. Just get me a guy who can get the ball into the end zone.

          • aub32

            I may have been trying to respond to another comment. I have no issue with what you said. Foles becoming a great QB would be great for all Eagles fans.

          • #7

            One thing I can say is at least I’m consistent with mine. One minute you say that you don’t care if it’s Vick or Foles…the next you’re puffing up Foles.

            I’ll say it again. I think Vick is the best QB for this team unless Foles proves otherwise, which he has not. What is wrong with that? You people see one half of football and want the starter benched. How fair is that?

          • BlindChow

            The problem is you can’t read anything without filtering through your “Vick vs. Foles” prism. For instance, I never said to bench Vick. You can’t point me to a post I’ve written where I’ve said that, yet because I complimented Foles’ work in the Giants game (and refuted obvious falsehoods about him not throwing long passes), you lump me in with those who have demanded Vick get benched. Basic us vs. them tribalism, without regard to what’s actually being said.

            But that’s okay, I don’t expect you to understand. It’s no different when arguing politics. Just people yelling past each other.

            I have been critical of Vick since KC. His completion percentage has been awful. I like his running, but that doesn’t look to be sustainable if he keeps pulling muscles (happened in an earlier game after not getting hit also). But if Foles stinks up the Tampa Bay game, I’ll hope like crazy Vick is able to play against Dallas.

            If Foles lights it up, maybe Vick will actually start playing better. I hate repeatedly having to settle for FG’s whenver we get to the red zone, which has been the book on Vick for the last few games. And that criticism is not the same as asserting Foles will be better (though you clearly have trouble comprehending that). But at least Foles hasn’t established a pattern of red zone problems yet. If Foles can’t score touchdowns either, then we might as well play Vick, right?

          • #7

            “The problem is you can’t read anything without filtering through your
            “Vick vs. Foles” prism. For instance, I never said to bench Vick.”

            Well forgive me for assuming. I don’t mind admitting if I’m wrong. Believe it or not people start the Vick Foles thing with me even if I’m on a thread about the defense.

            Be critical of Vick, but people shouldn’t get mad if someone criticizes the G.O.A.T Foles.

            “But at least Foles hasn’t established a pattern of red zone problems yet.”

            Yeah, you’re right if we’re judging on one half of one game with short fields. Again, I’ve given Foles credit for for his RZ success and I would bet 100 buck you either ignored that or you read what you want to read.

          • #7

            “Threatened” lol. You got me in here rollin man

          • knighn

            It doesn’t always work that way, especially at QB. You think Aaron Rodgers was actually winning the GB Packers job as long as Brett Favre was there? No way. No chance. Rodgers just didn’t have the live game experience. He had to play to get good enough to lead the Pack to a Super Bowl win.
            No: I’m not saying that Nick Foles is going to turn into Aaron Rodgers! I am saying that there comes a time to push the old guy out the door and see if the young guy can sink or swim. Different QBs have different expiration dates. At that point Favre hadn’t missed a game in 16 seasons. Vick hasn’t been as lucky… or as consistent.

          • #7

            The thing is, the “old” guy we have now isn’t in decline like you guys said. Favre was “God like” in GB and didn’t have to rein in his terrible INTs..praised for being a “gunslinger” although he’s thrown a lot of picks.

            In short, this situation is different than theirs. Favre was a legend and a should have been #1 pick in the draft behind him not a 3rd round project.

          • knighn

            Trace Vick’s productivity and accuracy from 2010 through 2012. Now look at Vick’s productivity and accuracy from the first 2 games of 2013 versus the last 2.5 games of 2013. If Vick is not in a state of constant decline, how do you explain the constant dropping off? I know, I know: “Things were bad in 2011 and 2012…” and what has it been for the last 2.5 games of 2013? It’s all the receivers and the O-line, right?

            Vick has in NO way had the career of Favre (regular season success, post-season success, MVPs, durability) so it’s not going to take someone on Rodgers’ level to displace him. It’s still funny that you refer to Foles as a 3rd round project. That 3rd round project had shockingly similar numbers to Vick last season (biggest difference after game 6 was the change in the Eagles defense). Over the last 3 games, Foles has put up 3 TDs in just over a half of play, while Vick has only put up 1 TD in 2.5 games of play. If Foles is a 2nd-year, 3rd round project, does that make Vick? A 11th year, 1st overall pick, still-a-project? As you are a fan of pointing out: “He’s still learning and improving!” When exactly will Vick become a complete QB? In 2016 when he’s out of the NFL?

            What’s sad is I saw this coming before the season. I knew that Vick either couldn’t stay healthy enough or productive enough for 6 full games. I said, on these boards, that Foles was going to be starting for the Eagles by game 6.

            I know, I know: I hate Vick, right? Wrong again, bucko. I believe that he has completely turned his life around since prison. I would trust him to watch my child or my pet. As long as he is a Philadelphia Eagles player I will root for him to succeed every single time he steps on that field. However: if he leaves the Eagles and goes on to play for another NFL team, I will want him to fail miserably until he retires. I’m not into fantasy football; I’m into the Philadelphia Eagles. I want every other team to fail and suffer while I watch my Eagles succeed.

          • #7

            Never said he did. You were the one who brought Favre into the conversation.

            “As you are a fan of pointing out: “He’s still learning and improving!”

            Every QB in the NFL is still learning and improving. No QB ever knows it all.

            ” As long as he is a Philadelphia Eagles player I will root for him to succeed every single time he steps on that field.”

            What??? Well you have a weird way of showing it…wanting him benched…”he’s in decline” etc etc etc. Lol..wow.

            One day you say Foles isn’t good enough..the next day you pull out his stats and tout him. I support Vick because I THINK he’s our best option to win. Why is that a problem? So you people want to tell me how to think now? Well sorry, you can’t. MLK took care of that issue years ago. Let’s put this to rest with two questions.

            Why in the hell would Chip put the “worst” QB on the field in his first year? Why not start Foles, who The Great Knighn says is the best?

            Why wasn’t Foles the starter week 1? Be a man and answer

          • knighn

            Vick isn’t the worst QB. He was the best option of a fairly weak set of options. Vick, a 10-year veteran who was a 1st overall pick had to beat out a 2nd year player with fewer than 10 NFL starts to his name and a 4th round rookie. The question here should be: if Vick was really that good, why was there a competition in the first place?

            The only honest answer can be: Vick is not really that good. I said before the season, “Vick may be the best option for now. That doesn’t mean he will be the best option for long.” Regardless of your beliefs, QBs don’t continue to keep learning and improving indefinitely. There comes a point when they’re just done. For some that happens later: like Brett Favre and Peyton Manning. For some, that happens soooner (like Troy Aikman and Donovan McNabb… and soon, Mike Vick).

            Speaking of Favre. I used him as an example: even a player like Aaron Rodgers, on the bench for 3 years, had to actually play to actually get better. That’s the way it generally happens for young QBs: they need to play to get better. Favre is also good for another example: it’s not good for a QB to keep playing far beyond his prime. It just doesn’t end well.

            As I said before: at some point even Foles becomes a better option than Vick. The big question is: When?

            I’m not trying to change your mind. I am trying to open your mind to very real possibilities. There is a very real possibility that Vick is gone next year. There is a very real possibility that he won’t finish the season as the starter. There is a very real possibility that he will no longer be in the NFL in 2016. You seem like a very passionate Eagles fan. I’d hate to lose you from these boards if one or more of thoe above should happen. At the very least, considering these possibilities gives you time to start considering something else: a new name once #7 is gone.

          • #7

            “Vick, a 10-year veteran who was a 1st overall pick had to beat out a 2nd
            year player with fewer than 10 NFL starts to his name and a 4th round
            rookie.”

            Knighn, do you ever look at the Eagles from a broader perspective, ever? Let me start by saying this. Of course, Vick has his hands in this. AR and Howie have done a terrible job with the roster. Look at our defense man and that should tell you all you need to know. Vick tried to do too much and I think he let outside talk get in his head. Heroball is what I hate the most. You ask a question we all know the answer to. New coach can come in and require competition at ALL POSITIONS which is what Chip did. Vick didn’t run from that. He couldn’t hand pick who the competition was against lol. It happened to be Nick and he beat him.

            “As I said before: at some point even Foles becomes a better option than Vick. The big question is: When?”

            As soon as Nick is good enough, that’s when he’ll be a better option lol. Simple as that. I’m glad that it gets proven on the field and not by fans like you.

            “I’m not trying to change your mind. I am trying to open your mind to very real possibilities.”

            You don’t have to try to “open my mind” lol. I know the game and all careers com to an end. There’s a real possibility that he WILL finish the season as the starter and be back next year too. You thought he would have gotten released this past offseason. Wrong again. You said Foles would win the open competition. Wrong again. You said Vick was in decline. Wrong again.

            How can you sit there and predict when a player will no longer be in the NFL? That is hilarious to me. Hell every player in the league is one play away from never playing again. Did you not know that or something?

            You’re right, I’m very passionate about the Eagles and it’s a shame that just because I think Vick is the best QB on our team that make me a “fake fan” and “Vick Lover”. It’s BS really. If Vick leaves, he leaves. Do I want him to? No. Not losing me from these boards for that. i may quit because I get tired of debating with people who refuse to accept someone else’s views and try to force theirs on me….like you constantly do…to no avail.

            Change my handle? I think it’s a pretty cool handle myself.

          • knighn

            Really? Did you really see a lot of competition at all of the starting positions? There was basically one real competition: for starting QB. Pretty much every other position was settled long before that. The only other competitions were for spots at the bottom of the roster. Jason Peters wasn’t competing. LeSean McCoy sure the heck wasn’t. DeSean Jackson got demoted for two seconds until CK got his attention. Lane Johnson was already set at RT.

            That was GEagle predicting Foles as the winner. I was simply hoping that Foles would prove to be the better player since I already have a pretty good idea of what we have with Vick… and I have a pretty good idea that he’ll be done in the NFL before the Eagles are ready to actually compete for a Super Bowl.

            Hell, I could be wrong about Vick’s future. I will be OK with that because it will mean that Vick is playing at a higher level that I expect. It doesn’t look like it right now. His play (production + accuracy) has certainly declined already since the start of the 2013 season. He has gotten hurt, again, before the 6th game of the season, as predicted… and as older players who are often banged up often find new ways of getting hurt.

            The best feature of Vick is also his curse. His mobility makes him like a Quarterback and Running Back all-in-one. There simply aren’t may 33+ year-old RBs running around the NFL.

            Keep the name… and stick around. Just make sure to give us plenty of notice if you ever decide to change it.

          • #7

            And also, why are you so desperate to convince me of otherwise?

            Pull for Foles knighn. I don’t care one way or the other. It will play out on the field.

            Your preferred franchise QB Foles might be under center on Sunday. Here’s his SECOND CHANCE to take the job. This should be right up his alley since according to you he’s so great.

            Prove it on the field.

          • Mike Calabrese

            This Bucs defense would give Vick or Foles a hard time. They have nothing to do with there poor start. In fact they held the 5-0 Saints prolific offense to 16 points. They are legit on defense period. Even if Vick was in this is the #1 run defense all of last year and have been good again this yr against run. They added Revis and Goldson to assist with pass defense. This is a bad matchup for the Eagles offense no matter if we had Vick in there or with Foles. I honestly think Eagles fans are really over looking the Bucs. They lost 3 of 4 games by a total of 6 points.

          • #7

            I’ve been saying this same thing on here. Fans on here pegging this as an automatic win. That is not the case

          • aub32

            He’s the backup so of course he should play if the starter can’t go. I hope he does well. I don’t think he’s crap, but I do think fans may have gotten some false confidence with Foles having such good field position against a Giants team that has faltered late in every game they’ve played this year.
            ….
            If Foles plays this week, it will be a good test to see what he can do against a good D. Also we will learn what the running game looks like without Vick or another mobile QB.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Agreed, and ya that’s a little obvious what I said about backup playing, but this isn’t just any backup, it’s a backup that can take starter.
            your last part there, all I want to see, Foles vs a good D, and the offense without Vick, can’t wait

          • JofreyRice

            I agree. This will be a nice test.

            Vick has pretty much given everyone on all sides of the debate what they wanted. He looked great int he preseason and walked away with the job in an open competition, which pleased the Vick supporters.

            Vick’s fragile health ensured Foles would get another chance to show that he has what it takes to guide the team in the future, and that he’s a fit for Kelly’s O.

            The people who think neither QB is good enough get a chance to see Foles go out there and prove he’s not a franchise caliber guy. Vick’s age, injury history and more down-to-earth play mean he’s probably not going to be here in 14, either.

          • #7

            Why are we so concerned about who’s going to be here or not at week 6?

            I really don’t get the point of that. We’re tied for first place

          • JofreyRice

            Because the franchise doesn’t appear anywhere near being able to contend for a Superbowl, given the talent level of the rest of the league.

            The quickest way to turn your franchise around is with a franchise QB. There appear to be some available in the upcoming draft. I want to see this franchise become a legit contender again, specifically, I want to see a parade in Philly.

            I think this also has to do with the way we’ve viewed the team all along. You believe in Mike Vick. You believe he has an unlimited ceiling at 33, and is a franchise QB. If I thought that way, I’d be all about doing whatever we can to try and make the playoffs this year, because with a franchise QB, you do have a chance to win any game (see Luck). I don’t see Vick as that.

          • #7

            Well we all want that. Just seems odd to me to talk about next year at week 6.

            The point is, Jofrey, is that we do not know what is going to happen. You just have to get to the dance and that’s what makes the NFL great. Anyone can win, not like the NBA where you KNOW who’s going to win.

            I’m not predicting anything..because I can’t. No one I imagine..thought the Giants would win the SB that year when the eeked into the playoffs. They just got hot at the right time.

            It’s all good man. Don’t want any problems

          • JofreyRice

            I imagine that would seem odd, to someone who’s favorite player in the entire league is the QB. It makes sense.

          • #7

            Jofrey you just can’t be friendly at all can you lol. Geez

          • JofreyRice

            Sorry, wasn’t trying to be unfriendly. I’m not trying to be a d!ck, the guy is your favorite player. It makes sense that you’d have faith he’ll carry the team, and wonder why others don’t.

          • #7

            I want the Eagles to win. And is there something wrong with having a favorite player? Don’t we all have one?

            I support Vick because he’s our best option for us to win this year. If Foles comes in and get the W, I’m happy. Defenses don’t Fear Foles. That’s one of my issues with him

          • Adam

            Well said.

          • Mike Calabrese

            My exact sentiments. I will say even though we are not a contender this year in my opinion I think Vick should stay starter unless Foles does an amazing job over next 2 weeks. I only say this bc from everything I have heard and seen the players in the locker room, the players look at Vick as there leader and as the guy at QB. To me that means something in Chip’s first year as coach. The team needs to gain confidence in Chip’s offense and plans for the future. If Chip pulls Vick while he is viewed as a leader by the team’s younger core then that may hurt there confidence in him as a coach.
            This is my concern though that next yr Vick may still be here. I think he has played well, but would like to see team move on after this season unless he absolutely lights it up when gets back or wins a playoff game or something like that. I have no dillusions that this team, even if they win the weak division is a true contender. We have no depth period and our defense is very bad. Only a few players on defense that i think are real NFL starters. So I do want Kelly to build team for next few years after he gains there confidence. Simply put Vick will not be here then so I am hoping that next draft or off season we address our QB position. I do think Vick has played well and just think we are in a weird position with this team and new first time head coach.

          • Adam

            Did you watch the game last week? I think Foles did just as good as Vick did. There’s no way we can say definitively one is better than the other until they each get full regular season games to run Chip Kelly’s offense.

          • #7

            Well Adam, what matters most? When Vick went out, we were winning. I don’t really care how it was done or how it looked.

          • Adam

            What’s your point? So because Vick was winning before he left means he’s better than Foles in this offense? That doesn’t even make sense.

          • #7

            Means that we would have won the game with Vick in there sir. Simple as that

          • juice

            But its a “Team game”
            Funny you Vickers always shout “team game” while at the same time saying the team can’t win without Vick. That the offense will be less dynamic, less effective, less everything.

          • aub32

            No one said the team cant win without Vick. Can the Broncos beat the Jags without Peyton? Most definitely. So why are they playing Peyton instead of seeing what they have in their young 2nd year player. Peyton is 37. He’s obviously not the futue. They can easily win the game without him. That’s not how the game is played. You put your best talent on the field. Can Foles win games. It’s possible, but every loss would raise the question what would Vick have done. He’s the better of the two QBs. He would’ve given us a better chance. What kind of message does that send?

          • juice

            They’re not replacing Peyton Manning because he is a superbowl winning, NFL MVP hall of famer who is having, statistically, one of the greatest seasons ever.
            Vick is in the bottom 3rd of most NFL passing categories on a losing team.
            To make a “why aren’t” question trying to compare the Manning and Vick situations and trying to equate the two of them shows your incredibly convoluted bias towards Mike Vick.
            Funny that you announce that vick is, “the better of the 2 qbs” because he wasn’t better last year during the regular season, and an argument can be made that the team moves better under Foles this year….so this whole “Vick is better” business is very debatable.

          • aub32

            A losing team that is first place in it’s division and 2-0 within the division. How can you call me biased for saying Vick is the better of the two QBs? Did you forget they went head to head this offseason? Did you forget Vick won the job so soundly that not even the most enthusiatic Foles’ supporters could make a case for Foles that had to do with on the field play? Or does that not count because you prefer to only bring up examples that support your argument. Despite whatever bias you think I have, Vick is better because he proved to be better. he proved it to Kelly. He proved to the fans, and he became the starting QB. However, your bias will not allow you to accept that fact. So you lash out, call me biased, and bring up examples that are not relevant. Last year was not Kelly’s scheme. Even so I think everyone agrees the team was a wreck, not just the QBs.

          • #7

            WHO SAID THAT??? Show me where someone has said it. Quit making up BS

          • aub32

            A showing in which Foles scored TDs against the Giants who are always terrible late when given the ball in plus territory does not negate the QB competition they had in my opinion. Foles struggled to drive down the field and get TDs (excluding his first drive because we don’t know what he would have done with more time). What you’re saying in my opinion equates to sitting McNabb to see what we had in Feely. Foles did good in relief. I was expecting that against the Giants, but Vick has played very well outside of the KC game and proved to be the better QB in this system.

          • Adam

            Vick is 1-3 this year in games he starts and finishes this year. There’s only one possible worst outcome, and that’s 0-4. So you can see why I’d be OK with putting someone else out there and seeing what they can do.

          • #7

            “Vick is 1-3 this year in games he starts and finishes this year.”

            Adam you make football seem like golf with your one player analysis. Why don’t you ever add in parts about our defense giving up leads and never gets off of the field on third down?

            You always leave everything else out, but you damn sure make sure that the name Vick is included. Football is the ULTIMATE team game. Period

          • cliff henny

            why do you act like vick is so good? he’s .500 qb! get Aub’s point, vick is best guy for team to win, but you act like eagles cant win without vick. you really have a flawless strategy…eagles win, vick was great…eagles lose , it’s a team game.

          • #7

            Well you fail to read sir. Myself and aub’s point is about the same man. I’ve never said Vick was a top 5 QB. Consistently said he was the best option for THIS TEAM and I’ve consistently said that he was better than Foles. You can look it up.

            My problem is, you people look at football like it’s a one man sport. When I see:

            “VICK IS 1-3″

            I just think that’s stupid when we come on here everyday and talk about how bad the defense is. AND YES, VICK HAS HIS HAND IN THIS TOO. There, it’s in all caps so you can see it. Cmon man. If you’re going to debate, why not read the post you’re responding to? Even aub32 has said it SEVERAL TIMES. No one is coming on here saying Vick is top 5.

            Please show me where I’ve said that

          • juice

            LOL….Vick is not a top 5 QB, but he’s the best option for the Eagles.
            Why would you want a top 5 Qb? a 20th ranked Vick is the ‘best option’.
            That’s funny really.

          • #7

            Because Vick is on our team.

          • aub32

            Did we just trade for a top 5 QB while out to lunch? If not you’re asking a really silly question.

          • #7

            Brandon Boykin, OLB must have a concussion from all of that blitzing that Bill Davis has him doing smh

          • #7

            That ish didn’t make sense at all

          • aub32

            Vick is far from flawless, but he’s the better QB. You don’t say you’re trying to win games then put lesser talent on the field. This isn’t about Vick being great. This is about Vick giving us the best chance to win.

          • Adam

            Haha, it’s really funny that you keep pointing out that football is the ultimate team game when someone says something bad about Vick, but you’ll defend the one player you worship over and over again. Most of us here are Eagles fans, aka the TEAM, but you’re just a straight up Vick fan. If you were an ultimate team fan you would realize it’s in the best interest of said team to move on from Vick next year.

          • #7

            What??? Because my views don’t match up with yours? Not everyone agrees with everything. That’s why this is a blog…for discussion/debate.

            And when someone says something about Foles, here comes Adam, so what’s your point?

            And why is my son’s room filled with Eagles gear lol? I would say that’s a team fan. That shit is expensive. Real talk

          • aub32

            Let’s not act like it’s all Vick’s fault. Last I checked he doesn’t play defense nor can he catch his own passes. He likely would have won the Giants game had he finished and did enough to win the Chargers game. He also still leads to #1 offense in the NFC #2 in the league. That can’t be overlooked, but so many people do it anyway.

          • Adam

            So we don’t want to put all the blame on Vick, but you want him to take all the credit for where the offense is in the standings? Shady McCoy and Chip Kelly are as big of contributors to where we are in those standings, if not bigger. What good are all these yards anyway if Vick can’t score in the redzone?

          • aub32

            I never said he gets all the credit for the offense. Chip has done an amazing job at getting production out of our two best weapons, but let’s not act like Vick’s running ability doesn’t add a boost for Shady. Let’s also not pretend we have another QB that can take advantage of the deep ball. If this were last year with Vick doing too much in the RZ and turning the ball over, I would be right there with you. I won’t blame Vick for dropped passes. I won’t blame Vick for the run game getting stuffed. He has missed a pass here and there as well, which is why I say the team struggles in the RZ. Foles had one RZ TD Sunday. However, if DeSean dropped that ball I doubt you would be as harsh.

          • #7

            It would have been on Jackson and his “RZ issues” again. That’s what would be said

            “Jackson is worthless in the RZ!!!”

            One of the favorite lines

          • anon

            They were both only ok. Foles had a lot more redzone opportunities but there was also a quarter and a half that he didn’t accomplish anything. Obviously hes coming off cold, but if he doesn’t have a bunch extra possession i think that game would have been an L. He had some nice throws and some bad throws. He actually moves really well in the pocket, but Vick has the ability to go get 20 yds on his legs which at the least makes people play honest.

          • Adam

            Vick is feast or famine. Big plays or nothing. But who cares if he can get the big plays if he can’t finish drives? He’s been abysmal in the redzone.

          • aub32

            The team has been abyssmal in the RZ. He can’t throw to himself. He doesn’t block. The blame isn’t solely on him. Would you blame Foles if Celeck had one of his classic drops on the Foles TD?

          • #7

            I want to see the answer to this one lol

          • Adam

            Read away.

          • Adam

            Of course, nothing is his fault. It’s funny how this has been a common theme for Vick supporters his entire career. Simply nothing is his fault. Can someday perhaps we realize that Vick is a career .500 QB because he’s simply not as great as you think he is?

            How about this. Since 2011 Vick has had 11 turnovers in the redzone. Hands down the worst in the league. I suppose this isn’t his fault either?

          • anon

            Funny you limit it to his two worst years. Yes Vick was terrible in 11 and 12. His being terrible in 12 had a lot to do w/ the o-line. How many red zone turnovers this year? Which QB turned the ball over in the redzone during the QB competition?

          • Adam

            Funny how I limit it his two worst years? are you kidding me? I limited it to his two most recent years. Why would I not judge a 33 year old QB on what he has done recently. I could care less what he did when he was 25.

          • anon

            Vick’s career turnover % is about the same as Romo, better than Alex Smith, Brett Farve, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning and Kurt Warner (among others obviously).

            Personally i think Vick, in order to stop turning the ball over, probably hesitates too much before throwing, but that’s a confidence issue that will come with time. He doesn’t take checkdowns enough, and could use better touch on his pass. We have a QB coach that can work to fix those problems as they are identified.

            I hate these grass is always greener stuff.

          • Adam

            Your whole second paragraph, I would have no problem with if it was a kid. This guy is 33 years old. Things don’t just come with time this late into a guys with career. Vick is what he is. The reason you go with youth is because you can work out these problems.

            This late into his career, no one is going to teach Vick to anticipate his throw, just like they aren’t going to teach him how to slide properly.

          • #7

            After seeing what happened to Hoyer, I wouldn’t slide either. He’s getting down good enough

          • aub32

            Who said nothing was his fault? I said team. Vick is part of the team is he not? You read what you want to read and throw things that have nothing to do with what was just said. What does his winning percentage have to do with the Eagles offensive struggles in the RZ?

          • #7

            3rd and 24 with Foles = Punt, or probably his specialty, the checkdown.

            3rd and 24 with Vick = 34yd run for a 1st or chance to pick it up passing.

        • EaglePete

          not at all, Im sure some do but its more of “we think we have seen Vicks ceiling so lets see what a younger QB has so we can draft another QB if needed” Find out whether Foles is just a backup or can continue to improve and become something. These issues have been stated ad nauseum going way back in these comment threads esp in the off season when they re-signed Vick. Thats the vibe I get anyway. I think most were okay with Vick starting also since it was obvious he won the QB competition to start, its just a short leash when you start to see the inconsistencies again. That being said, hes still playing well so far this season, I dont think hes lost the job. Hes actually doing what everyone wants him to do, it then just becomes fans wanting more. Kind of a no win for Vick but he had to know that resigning with Eagles just based on how long hes been with the team. He goes elsewhere and starts this yr I think his window for error is much larger.

        • GEagle

          I’m a FOles supporter, one of the most vocal…but none of the logical FOles supporters will sit here and bet money that FOles is the answer…if the debate was FOles vs. Barkley, us FOles supporters would probably keep quiet…M ost of us support FOles not because we KNOW he is the answer, but because we already know that Vick is NOT the answer….So, because FOles has shown some flashes and because he isn’t a finished product yet, we simply want to find out if he can be the answer or not….If it was FOles vs. Barkley, I like FOles more, but I wouldn’t be pounding the table for FOles because Barkley is also an Unknown, so it’s not like FOles is on the bench because someone we know isn’t the answer is in the game….
          ….
          But when you have two young unknowns on the bench, one who has flashed some Moxy and game, and the other who comes with a big pedigree, and we are 6 months away from what could be a QB rich draft….It’s hard to sit here and watch a guy who 100% is not the answer….you might not like FOles or Barkley, but you can’t say that they 100% are not the answer…

          Now if my options were Vick or Dennis Dixon, I would want the better out of the two players who we know aren’t the answer.

          What makes keeping FOles on the bench even more difficult for me, is that I don’t think Vick or FOles makes us much better then the other in 2013. They have been pretty close..so is our young kid playing up to the level of the super talented Vick with 10 years experience? Or is Vick playing down to the level of an inexperienced 3rd round pick? Either one gives the advantage to the inexperienced kid who isn’t even close to being done growing into the QB that he will ultimately be…

          Sooner or later you have to find out who your young QBs really are…you can’t do that putting them in a game cold, or playing them once every 4 games when Vick gets hurt..you have to commit to giving them the continuity that they need to grow into the hardest position in sports….what better time then now, when playing FOles isn’t sacrificing a Super Bowl run…This division sucks, and Playing FOles instead of Vick won’t lead to more then two extra win, and it won’t lead to more then two extra losses….the opportunity cost of not giving FOles a chance to play and grow is just not worth an average 33yr old, especially when the rest of the team in ATleast a year away from really competing…
          ….
          Then there is the durability issue…Vick has done everything right! he was throwing the ball out of bounds vs? the giants! he was avoiding hits running out of bounds…yet his team still has to play with a backup for a half against a rival onthe road and ATleast 1 more game while we are still under 500 because he gets hurt running out of bounds untouched? Sure that can happen to everyone, but that’s least likely to happen to a big kid who will just sit in the pocket, because he won’t be trying to make plays with his legs 7 times a game

        • knighn

          Whoah! I don’t hate Vick. I just said that “he just doesn’t play at his highest level consistently.” His first 2 games of 2013 are demonstrative of a QB playing at a very high level. His last 2.5 games: not so much. Vick is inconsistent. He has been so throughout his career. Where does me stating a fact project to me hating Vick?

          You can win Super Bowls in the NFL with inconsistent QBs as long as they stay healthy, get hot at the right time, and they have a good enough team around them (see: Eli Manning). Right now Vick doesn’t have a good enough team around him, so the Eagles are not winning a Super Bowl this year (or next year)… even with Vick or Foles or Barkley (or whichever QB is here next year).

          If the question is “who is the future franchise QB of the Eagles?” I am fairly certain that Foles is NOT the answer. I am even more certain that Vick is not. Heck, I could be wrong… maybe Vick will come back and start playing more like he did against the Skins and the Chargers… but if he keeps playing the same way he did against the Chiefs, Broncos and Giants, he certainly won’t be starting much longer.

    • Richard Colton

      Come on, when healthy, he’s a top 16-20 QB in the league.

      • Johnny J

        lol….do I sense sarcasm??? “He’s at the top of the bottom half of the league’s QB’s.” lol

        • GEagle

          We will see what kind of market their is for him after the season,,,if he is top bottom half, he shouldn’t have a hard time finding a starting job like Carson Palmer right?

    • Brandon Boykin, OLB

      You never addressed my point about how much you liked Matt Barkley and your superb QB evaluation talents. Your QB opinions are worth as much as Ryan Leaf being a QB.

      … worth as much as Byron Leftwich running the zone read.

      … worth as much as Tim Couch being Andy Reid’s QB.

      I could go all day.

  • EaglePete

    amazing how Tim and Sheil are in tune with their readers. This theme had a lot of back n forth last week or so, now they write an article addressing it. Thats why I stopped even looking elsewhere for my Eagles fix, I just come here for the most part.

    • #7

      No site like this one. Feels like we really have a hand in what they are writing. And for the most part, people can discuss/debate without it getting too crazy

      • G_WallyHunter

        We are all well-levelled fans on this board (for the most part), most ppl respect other opinions and most ppl admit when they are wrong… MOST lol

        • #7

          It’s better now than it was during the summer with the QB comp. Got rough on here lol

          • G_WallyHunter

            haha oh I remember, ridiculous, I was amazed how many people were wasting time typing out huge comments on things that became irrelevant within weeks (or days)

          • #7

            LMAO

    • G_WallyHunter

      haha same, used to go around to espn blog and nfl, what’s the point anymore? when you know you’ll get much better content here that will trump anything else?
      First and only stop for eagles, all day every day :)

  • BlindChow

    I hope they ignore Foles as a run threat and Kelly takes advantage of it:

    http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu267/BoogaFrito/FolesSeaofGreen.jpg

    Run, Foles, run!

    But really, they did run/pass options in the preseason and at Oregon, so it’s not like Foles keeping the ball means it’ll come down to a footrace.

    • #7

      1yd run probably even with all that green grass smh

      • cliff henny

        foles isnt that bad. guy was recruited to play ball at georgetown. last i checked, they roll out some crazy athletes.

        • #7

          Ok. 3yds

          • cliff henny

            you do know vick is a .500 qb…he can run like the wind, but has serious flaws. ripping foles does not change that

          • #7

            Ripping him because he can’t get 5yds? That’s hardly ripping him.

          • cliff henny

            it’s pretty much a constant theme with you.

          • #7

            Oh? It’s not accurate? No matter. Just responded to the picture. Saying he can’t get 5yds isn’t ripping him dude. Lighten up

          • phillyeagle77

            I’ve seen pick up a few yards running that play.. No not like vick would but he’s got it done.. There’s plenty of quarter bcks that are ten times slower than him.. im a huge vick fan but i honestly want to see what foless can prove because last year he didn’t look good to me but camein aagainst the giants and i was impressed but i want to see more..

          • #7

            Here’s his chance

          • evanphilly

            We have seen plenty from Foles to know that he can pick up at least 5-6 yards when given a ton of open space. He isn’t Peyton Manning-level stiff back there (and I am only comparing them in running the ball, not anything else)

    • GEagle

      Even if he is only picking up 5yards, if he does it enough, their defenders will get embarrassed and be forced to honor it, which should free shady up some

  • aub32

    I highly doubt Foles would get even 3 yards a pop, let alone 5, against the Bucs. The Bucs LBs are better and faster than the Giants LBs. I really hope we run Foles as little as possible. Maybe this game we can include some more 2 TE sets and run more power and playaction.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      I don’t want Barkley in the game…so let’s run Foles as little as possible. lol

  • nicksaenz1

    If Foles does indeed start, I hope we see that triple option play that started with the read option, Foles kept it, and last second threw the screen. Don’t know if it will work against the Bucs, but I just hope we see it.

    • JofreyRice

      Def. the time to roll out whatever we’ve got in the playbook. This season should be where Kelly learns how to coordinate and coach pro games; what works, and what doesn’t.

    • cliff henny

      least this week i’ll be prepared for it. first time they tried it, had no idea what was going on. that play has a couple too many moving parts for me

      • BlindChow

        Yeah, I saw that and thought we were going to have a backwards pass fumble…but Avant caught it. Still made me pretty nervous.

        • GEagle

          Yeah I don’t like that play……watching Vick play is already a weekly heartache, I don’t need to see FOles do that ever again lol. almost crapped my pants when I thought he was about to do it against the midgets

  • Eagles4Life

    Can we try to get a win in the books without worrying about the other bs for once? C’mon guys (and gals) lol.

  • GEagle

    Can’t wait to see FOles facing a good defense, which should be really focused playing at home, knowing that it will need to carry a rookie QB to avoid falling to 0-5…I m sure some returning Tampa defenders felt embarrassed by what jolly Ol St. Nick did to them last year..A week of practice reps as the man, coaching staff committed to designing a gameplan around “The Tampa Slayer lol” FOles, and having the giants game shake off the rust….It’s great to finally get an opportunity to see what we have in the kid…Anxious to see how the Oline looks when the ball is coming out quick and the QB isn’t dancing around back there looking for the Homerun…anxious to see how Chips passing game looks with a Qb who gets the ball out quick, with proper timing, throwing guys open and let them make plays….

    Pass game under Vick has been all Desean deep, with a few catches out of Avant and Celek, and two catches for 30 yards per game out of Ertz.
    ….
    Can FOles finally get something out of Riley? can he make Desean effective when defenses take away the deep ball? Can he make Desean consistently produce in the RZ? Can he get the TEs more involved in the game? Going to be really interesting to see what level he is at in year two…A lot of questions I’m hoping to start getting answers to…..

    One thing I do expect is for Shaddy to have a big day catching the ball, which is important because Bucs have a nice run defense, and I think we would struggle running the ball this week even with Vick in the game. Bucs have a good Dline, but it’s not a massive line. They are Quick which makes for an interesting battle against our athletic line…the Bucs also might have the best Oline we played all season, and they like to Add an extra OT instead of a TE in the run game….W e aren’t playing against a good team by any stretch of the immagination, but the Bucs do provide some good tests for us…Games against bad teams haven’t been locks for us in some time…Hopefully Chip changes that and we start consistently beating the teams we are I supposed to beat….This is a great opportunity because while it provides some challenges and some tests for some of our guys, they aren’t some confidence killing insurmountable challenges…It’s crucial for our development to build off the Giants win, and start getting on a roll, playing with confidence and Swag….I haven’t taken any of our losses hard this year! but this one would really hurt because of the great opportunity that it presents

  • Weapon Y

    The offense will need to play to Foles’s strengths. Those are lots of quick, short passes. It’s time to unleash the 3 tight end sets to get more targets for him underneath. I’m also in favor of a lot of screen passes to our quick skill players like DJax, Damaris Johnson, and Shady. It looks like he has much better touch on his passes this year, and that he’s better at longer throws. I wouldn’t hold him back from those deep throws either. I didn’t see any wounded ducks. If anything, I saw him overthrow Cooper in the endzone. That shows he’s really worked to improve that part of his game. Overall, he’s actually better at the short passing game than Vick is (but not the longer I’ll concede). Sure, the zone read is important, but there are ways to tailor that part of the offense to Foles (like incorporating short passes as an option in that play). It’s equally, if not more important, for Chip Kelly’s quarterback to be decisive and efficient with the passing game. In that regard, Foles is actually better than Vick because Foles will generally take the checkdowns for consistent short gains, while Vick will go “bombs away” and get us feast or famine. My point here is that Foles is better at some parts of Kelly’s offense, and Vick is better at others. It’s not as clear cut as the ESPN guys say it is as to who the better fit for Kelly’s offense is. Undoubtedly, Vick was the better quarterback in the preseason, but the job is now Foles’s to claim if he looks like a franchise quarterback against the Bucs.

    • GEagle

      Good stuff…I can’t wait to see the kid

    • #7

      Good post

    • BirdGang

      haha yes it is clear cut. It was clear cut when CK said Vick was the starter after the 2nd preseason game. CK and the rest of the coaching staff sees these guys way more than any of us do…so I am going to trust their judgement.

      • Weapon Y

        I didn’t say it wasn’t clear cut at all. I just said it isn’t as clear cut as ESPN says it is. Big difference. Yes, Vick is currently the better quarterback, but not by as big of a margin as you might think.

    • aub32

      I still think Foles’ throws take too long to get to the sideline when throwing outs and corner routes. Though to be fair, that might just be because we were watching Vick earlier in the game. Also, I don’t think Foles can win this job in one game. He will need at least two.

      • EaglePete

        I agree, he needs more than just this game to unseat Vick. Probably more than any of us think. Fans may get uptight but coaches dont care, they see everything in practice. That being said, you can see sometimes when public pressure makes a change. That or a coach who has nothing to lose.

    • NJDIII

      I don’t want Jackson running slants against gholston. He is a head hunter and will derail our season, I want foles to toss it down field in first quater push those safety’s back. I think his lack of arm strength is so overblown. I watched him in PAC 10 throw nothing but 35-40 yard attempts they had a vertical offense.

      • GEagle

        The TD pass he threw to Celek last week traveled beautifully for 40 yards

  • GEagle

    Why do I want FOles? For the Hopes that he is good enough to allow us to draft a defender in round 1 or Marquis lee and Austin Sefarian Jenkins….Jenkins/Ertz can really grow to be a Gronk/scumbag type of potent duo…and if FOles is good enough to not have to pay Vick 7mil a year, that’s Jarius Byrd money!! Lol
    ….
    Nothing speeds up us getting back to becoming a top team, then FOles proving he is the guy

    • JofreyRice

      why do you always capitalize the second letter of his name? Am I missing something?

      • aub32

        maybe because the first two letters of his handle is capitalized and he sees himself as having some type of connection to Foles.

      • EaglePete

        or hes types from his cell phone or just typing fast. If you type fast and hit the cap button sometimes it gets the first 2 letters but then that wouldn be the case for other spots. I know its a pain commenting from a cell, hate typing on my phone.

        Even if Foles looks good they should still draft another QB. You have to find a franchise guy that is special to be tops in the NFL and competing for super bowls.

        • aub32

          That wouldn’t make sense since he correctly typed over half a dozen proper nouns without making the same mistake.

          • JofreyRice

            Yeah, the way he does it is painstaking.

  • anon

    My question is that given Vick’s progress year over year — how can you make the argument that “we know what we have in Vick” it seems like he’s a player that’s still evolving.

    • #7

      That’s what I see. I’m just glad that things get solved on the field and not by the fans.

      As for Foles, I like Foles. I hope he wins the game. I just don’t think he’s the best option for this team. If he was, he would already be the starter

    • anon

      I got downvoted for saying Vick is better than he was last year? I see what it is.

    • EaglePete

      oh he is, and hes shown that this first part of the season. However, how much of that can you rely on or really hope for at his age. Also with how many coaches does the “new scheme” get factored in and buy the QB time to develop. Ask Jay Cutler about that part, hes never had same coord for 3 seasons in a row. You start hearing those excuses for Cutler also. Then you have Romo, at his age, always puts up great numbers but chokes in the big spots. So its not like Vick is alone in fan criticism, they all get it from different angles. Its kind of similar to the “where and for who you get drafted to” meme about that making or breaking a career, all speculation but holds some merit.

  • Byter

    This may have been said since I didn’t read the 164 comments, but it’s an easy adjustment. Make it a run/pass option. Slip a TE or slot into the space the scraping LB just left and QB just tosses it to him instead of run. It’s a well-know adjustment to the “scraping” LB defensive scheme.