Rape, Rape-Rape and Sexual Assault at Colleges

The battle over what constitutes sexual assault on college campuses is reaching new levels of absurdity.

shutterstock_no-to-rape-940x540

If you haven’t read Simon van Zuylen-Wood’s terrific piece in the May issue of Philadelphia magazine on sexual assaults at Swarthmore College, do so. It’s called “Rape Happens Here,” and it starts off with a young woman’s description of an incident in her senior year as a Swattie. Here is that description:

 [S]he was in her room with a guy with whom she’d been hooking up for three months. They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. “I basically said, ‘No, I don’t want to have sex with you.’ And then he said, ‘Okay, that’s fine’ and stopped,” [the woman] told me. “And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.

After one of my colleagues read the page proofs for the piece, he came into my office. “Did you find that first incident to be a little … ambiguous?” he asked tentatively. I told him I didn’t find it ambiguous at all; it didn’t meet my definition of rape. Another colleague overheard our conversation and joined us. She, too, said what happened to the woman didn’t sound like rape—“Or if it is,” she added, “I’ve been raped in every relationship I’ve ever been in.”


A few days later, that first colleague and I were discussing the piece with another staffer who is in her 20s. She was adamant that what the woman experienced was rape. “But I did worry, when I read it,” the younger staffer admitted, “that some people wouldn’t see it that way.”

Can rape really be in the eyes of the beholder? It appears it can.

Three years ago, I wrote an article for the magazine called “The New Rules of College Sex.” In it, I discussed a “Dear Colleague” letter of guidance the Department of Education had recently sent to all colleges in the country, laying out how they would be required to treat claims of sexual assault and harassment on their campuses in light of Title IX, the federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in education.

For the article, I interviewed a Malvern lawyer — a Villanova Law grad — named Brett Sokolow, who’s been a driving force behind Title IX claims against colleges. He’s built a lucrative business advising colleges on how to avoid such claims, filing claims against colleges, and representing both colleges and complainants in such cases, and he’s the founder of NCHERM, the National Center for Higher Education Risk Management. He’d been warning colleges for years that Title IX claims for sexual assault were coming: “The ‘Dear Colleague’ letter was one of the most important moments of my professional life,” he told me when I interviewed him. Sokolow was advising colleges to immediately expel any student found guilty of sexual assault under their judicial guidelines. He was asking for the creation of a national database of offenders. He told me women “should have the right to strip naked and run through the streets and be unmolested.” So he must be overjoyed with the way his vision has come to fruition, right?

Not exactly. The same day Simon’s story was published online, I received a copy of Sokolow’s weekly online newsletter. Under the heading “Tip of the Week,” he wrote:

Okay, so I’m all fired up again. In the last two weeks, I’ve worked on five cases all involving drunken hook-ups on college campuses. In each case, the male accused of sexual misconduct was found responsible. In each case, I thought the college got it completely wrong. … [S]ome boards and panels still can’t tell the difference between drunk sex and a policy violation. … Surely, every drunken hook-up is not a punishable offense. … ”

These are specially trained boards and panels, mind you — in lots of cases, trained by Sokolow at special (expensive) conferences and training sessions. And they still can’t get it right! Why is it so hard to decide what’s rape and what isn’t on college campuses? The answer may lie in something else Sokolow told me: that women have to be taught to understand when they’ve been sexually assaulted: “They have to learn to say, ‘This is something that was done to me, not something I did to somebody else.’” They have to be educated in their lack of agency — in their victimhood.

And colleges are teaching them, starting right from their first day of orientation. Here’s how Swarthmore lays it out in its student handbook:

Consent to engage in sexual activity must be knowing and voluntary; it must exist from the beginning to end of each instance of sexual activity and for each form of sexual contact. …

Consent consists of an outward demonstration indicating that an individual has freely chosen to engage in sexual activity. Relying on non-verbal communication can lead to misunderstandings. Consent may not be inferred from silence, passivity, lack of resistance, or lack of an active response alone. A person who does not physically resist or verbally refuse sexual activity is not necessarily giving consent.

It’s understandable that schools want to institute rules to clarify when sexual activity is consensual and when it’s not on their campuses. The problem comes when you try to extend that rarefied vision to the outside world. When people who haven’t been treated to the extended hairsplitting of the Swarthmore code of conduct look at the issue of consent, it isn’t nearly so clear. I’ve been married to my husband for 31 years. In that time, I can’t say my “consenting” to sex with him has always been verbal or “enthusiastic” — another adjective sexual-assault activists like to throw in there. It’s unimaginable to me that two young partners in the throes of one of their earliest sexual experiences would “stop and clarify verbally the other’s willingness to continue before continuing such activity.” Maybe if that’s the way you’ve been taught, you do. But what makes a person guilty of sexual assault on a college campus rarely arises to what would amount to guilt in a court of law. And having two separate jurisdictions — and two separate definitions of rape — really gums up the works.

The women filing Title IX claims against their colleges say the administrators have ignored or brushed aside their complaints of sexual assault. There’s an instance in Simon’s piece where a woman

says a male student burst into her room while she was naked and refused to leave, after having harassed her via text message. According to her Title IX complaint, when she reported the incident, an administrator laughed and told her she might consider having him write “knock” on his hand as a reminder before he goes out.

You can read that as an example of an administrator being incredibly insensitive to a sexual assault. Or you can see it as a student overreacting to a minor trespass, with crossed signals between her and the administrator.

The comments section that follows Simon’s piece bristles with back-and-forth between people with such differing perspectives. “I don't buy into the idea that run-of-the-mill college sexual experiences should be considered on the same level as rape,” one commenter declares, to be met with: “[I]t is not for you to decide what is a ‘real traumatic’ rape experience.” “The sexual encounter depicted here … sounds to me like trying to press charges against your roommate for eating your leftover pizza after you explicitly told them ‘no,’" someone charges. And the counter-charge: “I’d just like to know how far you can extend the victim blaming explanation before you realize how disgusting you are.” These aren’t two sides that are going to come to an understanding anytime soon.

And Sokolow knows it. There’s a certain air of desperation in the text of his tip this week: “We’ve written about this and talked about it forever,” he says plaintively, “but some boards and panels still can’t tell the difference between drunk sex and a policy violation. Perhaps the problem stems from weak policy, insufficient training or the futility of the panel model.”

Geez, you think? As Sokolow peers into the future, he sees the leviathan he unleashed growing ever larger and more uncontrollable: ‘[M]en are simply being punished for having sex, which is gender discrimination under Title IX, because their partners are having sex too and are not being subject to the code of conduct for doing so.”

That’s right: Even the prime architect of the Title IX college-sex debacle can’t see a way out of these woods.

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  • Hillary!

    Juanita Broderick was raped by Bill Clinton.

  • Uhm…

    Are you honestly trying to argue that it’s an overreaction for someone to report a student who broke into her room to try to watch her have sex? Is this real life?

    • Nathan

      That wasn’t the story listed. It was that a male student came in while she was nude and refused to leave.
      Please don’t elaborate on things that are in black and white in the article.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    If the definition is true then I have been raped countless number of times by women I was just not aware of it then. More ridiculousness, women are having less choices than ever and feminists must be prosecuted for several decades of hate crimes.

    • Auntie Alias

      LOL

      • The Pragmatician

        You find it funny, yet I bet you will find that a sizable portion of the population has been “raped” when the definition is broadened the way it has been in the previous article. I think most of the married couples in world are going to yawn at:

        “And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties,
        taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything —
        I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let
        him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.”

        “Rape” is not synonymous with “acquiescing”.

        • Auntie Alias

          She said no. What is hard to understand about that?

          • The Pragmatician

            I’ve said “no” plenty of times only to give in at some point.

            It’s a pretty common situation in relationships and marriage.

            I don’t think we should be tying up the courts with petty buyer’s remorse, otherwise half of our nation would be on trial for “rape”. Get some perspective.

          • Auntie Alias

            The idea that someone should persist because of the possibility that the other person will give in ignores basic human decency. No one should disregard the wishes of another person, especially when it comes to something as intimate as sex. It sure as heck doesn’t foster a relationship built on trust.

            “Buyer’s remorse” is such an offensive term.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            I will copy and paste what Bluedrgn said:

            Remember rape is a horrible crime, second only to murder in severity…
            it’s not something you allow to happen simply because you’re tired and
            want to sleep. Can you imagine letting someone dismember you simply
            because you were to sleepy to argue about it? Can you imagine letting
            some steal your TV or murder your dog simply because you wanted to
            sleep? No? Then you can’t with any reasonable sanity say “I let him rape
            me because I was too tired to say “no” again”

          • Auntie Alias

            I’m uncomfortable with the repetition of “rape is a horrible crime” when it comes from the keyboards of sexists and misogynists. The implication is that only the most violent, forceful assaults are really rape and that everything else is not.

            The crucial issue that is steadfastly ignored is lack of consent. It’s based on the assumption that the wishes and feelings of the victim* are unimportant and I reject it on that basis.

            *Except, of course, when the victims are boys and men and then suddenly their feelings matter to sexists and misogynists. Consistency and less hypocrisy would be appreciated.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Just because you are uncomfortable it does not change the fact I have been raped too as per the definition. the fact is it was not forced, rape is attributed to forced, you are minimizing the pain of an actual rape victims by comparing something heinous with a childish behavior of some WOMYN. An idiot like you do not understand if you pollute the definition, eventually it will go both ways. Be careful what you ask for because you might get it but can you live with it?

          • Auntie Alias

            Now you’re incoherent.

          • BozoerRebbe

            “I let him finish”. That statement implies consent.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        I thought you were a sensible person when you first interacted then I found out that you were biased and I tried to reason with you but now I realize you are in fact, a very mean and ev*l person who LOL on every male sufferings. I just can not get it. I remember you were obsessed with women doing genocide, as if story of male suffering gives you pleasure.

        Here are women doing genocide, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/world/africa/25rwanda.html?_r=0

        Academia feminists advocating for eugenics, mass sterilization, and mass murder http://hnn.us/article/1796

        You are si*ck

        • Auntie Alias

          I’m LOLing at ridiculous claims. In this case, it was that feminists should be prosecuted for hate crimes.

          What does the Rwanda genocide and eugenics have to do with feminism?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Because they are feminists, read the fking article, there are more information that details their beliefs. Do some work and get information. I am done providing you everything, do not be entitled princess.

          • Auntie Alias

            I did a search for the word “feminist” in both articles. Both came up with no matches.

            Even if Pauline Nyiramasuhuko is a feminist, what does that have to do with it? Individuals who commit crimes don’t do it on behalf of all feminists. That’s like blaming Valerie Solanas’s attempted murder of Andy Warhol on all feminists at the time.

            Your original statement was “feminists must be prosecuted for several decades of hate crimes.” That comes across as feminists as a group. I’m not responsible for the Rwanda genocide or the attempted murder of Andy Warhol. Please be more concise in your wording if that’s not what you meant.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            because feminists are very very angry volatile fringe group of people. We have so many the list does not stop at herman harriet, adele mercier, valeri solanas, dwarkin, and there are many more, they are all feminists with anti male, male hating, bipolar world view in their heart and mind.

          • Auntie Alias

            Um, Solanas and Dworkin are dead. They pose no threat.

            “bipolar world view” – What? What does mental illness have to do with feminism? It’s an illness that can strike anyone.

            “Eventually women are getting tired of it and women are the ones who would ask for prosecution of feminists for committing hate crimes, you watch.”

            You’re dreaming. As more people – not just feminists – rally to denounce rape culture and insist on justice for victims of sexual violence, MRAs are getting angrier and more volatile. It’s going to blow up in your faces; I guarantee it.

          • cepheid

            Dworkin was astoundingly bigoted person, and yet NOW, which SourceWatch calls the largest feminist organization in America, was very supportive of her during her life and calls her “one of feminism’s most rigorous minds”. She was one of their most prominent members, but even so, if they care at all about equality, they should finally denounce her. What’s dangerous is that many of today’s gender activists cite her as a major influence.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    I am also surprised since male enrollment is decreasing in the universities, how come rape culture (which is males sexually assaulting females) is prevailing in universities and what kind of parents are sending their daughters to universities where rape culture is prevalent. I say, male and females avoid universities at any cost. The risk for getting education is not worth it.

    • brando55

      Propaganda tells people what they want to hear, there will be no opposition. Women don’t view men as human, it’s a an acceptable and maybe even necessary attitude when women’s position is weak, but when their vote counts the same it produces tyranny

      • Auntie Alias

        “Women don’t view men as human”

        Oh for crying out loud.

  • fools2234

    And of course NO people are outraged at the growing number of men who are having their lives ruined because they “dared” to have drunken sex with a girl (who was also drunk) and then having rape cried on them when she wakes up and regrets her decision.

    It doesn’t matter that he was also drunk, he has peni s and thus is automatically guilty.

    Where’s the outrage America? If America’s favorite daughters were having their lives ruined people would be up in arms about it.

    • Mark Wharton

      If a guy claimed rape waking up to a chick when he was drunk the night before everyone would laugh at him, and rightfully so in most cases. It should be the same way in reverse. Yes, a drunken hookup is different then having sex with someone who is passe dout.

      • Mateusz82

        If a guy is raped period, he is laughed at.

        • Auntie Alias

          I would venture that it’s other men who do the laughing which is very sad.

    • Auntie Alias

      Citation for the growing numbers, please.

      • teapartydoc

        Doesn’t need one. It’s obvious to everyone with effing eyes.

        • Auntie Alias

          News stories aren’t evidence that the numbers are growing.

  • waybackrie3

    Debating A Feminist About Rape: WARNING: tears & rage ahead!

  • waybackrie3

    Does NO really mean NO? A LIVE debate against a feminist

  • waybackrie3

    Effects of Feminism On Men

  • iggy

    The first example citied in this article is the kind of pseudo rape that has me terrified for my son when he goes to college. Yes, she said she didn’t want to at THAT moment, so when he tried again, knowing she would say NO if she wanted him to stop (like she did the first time), and she didn’t, he took it for a non-verbal yes. Her agency wasn’t removed from her, she deliberately let the event happen. She was not forced, not prevented from leaving or talking or swatting him away. She chose to stay in bed and let him have sex with her. She ignored her OWN feelings and let it happen. Letting people do things to you when you are NOT forced to let them is NOT the same as being victim to an abusive crime. Women and girls are accountable for their actions, or inactions, when the other party is NOT using force other than perseverance and gentle persuasion. Rape is violence, it happens to both women and men by both men and women, and rapists are not people trying to have sex, they are people trying to lash out and hurt others. I am so tired of this one-way discourse.

    • RiseOfDivergents

      Women are treated as little children in our society who are not allowed to grow up by gender ideologues.

    • plasmacutter

      As a career man who once dated a bored non-working girlfriend, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve come home late at night exhausted and been subjected to the EXACT SAME interplay in the first example.

      Being a giving boyfriend, I’d eventually provide at least something to alleviate her “boredom”. Under this ridiculous definition, apparently i’ve been “raped” too many times to count.

      To this I say certainly not. If you give in to persistence in the absence of force or coercive threats, it’s not rape.

      The idea that any time there’s no clear “yes” means it’s rape is ludicrous in the extreme, and designed to do one thing: transform the “initiation” behavior expected of men by 95% of women into a criminal act through which men can be vindictively persecuted in life-wrecking, star-chamber fashion.

      It’s very telling that one of the people leading a lone campaign against this stupidity in California is a college-aged girl who sees it for the bald-faced attack on masculinity it is and her happily married mother and father who don’t sign contracts every time they share a bed.

      • The Pragmatician

        “The idea that any time there’s no clear “yes” means it’s rape is
        ludicrous in the extreme, and designed to do one thing: transform the
        “initiation” behavior expected of men by 95% of women into a criminal
        act through which men can be vindictively persecuted in life-wrecking,
        star-chamber fashion.”

        This right here. The goal posts for what qualifies as “rape” has been getting lower and closer for years. We are now at the point where this movement is very clearly making an effort to criminalize as much male behaviour as possible. It is an attempt by Feminists to wedge government into your bedroom and stake a claim of jurisdiction over every possible grey area of common sexual conduct and hand it over to any women who chooses to find buyer’s remorse to be a court-sport.

        The major problem with the “rape culture” moniker is that it has rendered the term “rape” so nebulous and diffuse by attaching itself to almost any male sexual behaviour. Words lose their meaning if they are too broadly applied. I really think we need to make a huge distinction between situations like those described in these articles and violence of actual rape. Use of a different term such as “sexual disagreement” would be much more appropriate. Most of these girls sound confused and would benefit more from a mentor or counselor than a lawyer.

        • Auntie Alias

          “Most of these girls sound confused and would benefit more from a mentor or counselor than a lawyer.”

          Spare me the condescension. It’s not about criminalizing male behaviour; it’s about criminalizing predatory sexual behaviour that causes real emotional and/or physical harm. It doesn’t matter whether the aggressor is a man or woman.

          Consent isn’t rocket science. If you’re not sure whether you have real consent, don’t risk continuing.

          • The Pragmatician

            Do you give a “receipt of consent” every time you engage in sexual behaviour?

            “If you’re not sure whether you have real consent, don’t risk continuing.”

            I have been in many situations where either I or the other party did not explicitly give consent through words.

            Have you actually been in a relationship?

          • Auntie Alias

            I didn’t say consent had to be verbal.

          • The Pragmatician

            Did you sign a contract?

          • Auntie Alias

            ..

          • Looking for Answers

            Can you please define “predatory” for me in general terms?

            Please forgive my lack of understanding, but I’ve known many women who complain about a “jerk” for days after they were smoothly and willingly talked into sex. How does consent prevent this kind of activity?

            Thanks!

          • Auntie Alias

            A human predator is someone who targets another (the prey) in a way that’s harmful; for example: stalking, harassment, sexual assault, or rape.

            As to your second question, consent can’t prevent coercion.

    • lazyeyed2

      Teach your son to stop when a woman says to stop – and let that be the end of the matter. Then, you and he won’t have to worry about someone accusing him of rape when he doesn’t stop after she says no.

  • politicalcynic

    Actually here’s the part of all this I always find fascinating-and which gives feminists fits:

    If he is sober and she is drunk: he raped her.
    If he is drunk and she is drunk: he raped her.
    If she is sober and he is drunk: he might have raped her if she decides later that she regretted it.

    The standards supported by colleges, the federal government and the endless cries of those claiming “rape culture” generally only apply to men. It amounts to a simple formulation:

    Her body, her choice. His body, her choice.

    How is this equality?

    • Auntie Alias

      Fiction

      • Mark Wharton

        correct, calling that equality is complete fiction.

        • Auntie Alias

          This part is pure fiction and especially hanging it on feminists: “If she is sober and he is drunk: he might have raped her if she decides later that she regretted it.”

          But, hey, people who hang around AVFM (like both of you) live on fiction to fuel thier anger.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            You know everyone who visits AVFM so much more than an actual member knowing other members, it seems you hang around AVFM a lot more than any one else. Good for us, keep following us and do not forget to comment wherever we go. We love to expose sexist and bigots like you right around the public.

            Welcome! thank you! come again!

          • Auntie Alias

            It’s always helpful to keep on top of the current lies, misogyny, and racism so I’m not surprised when I see it regurgitated elsewhere.

          • Mark Wharton

            You are correct that unfortunately this attitude spreads farther then just feminism.

          • Auntie Alias

            Feminists don’t preach that. It’s a narrative made up by misogynists and other rape apologists.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Rape apologists like Feminist, Adele Mercier.

          • Auntie Alias

            Give me a break!

    • Mateusz82

      It’s the feminist version of equality, in where women are more equal than men.

  • Ar

    Man – What do you want?
    Feminist – Equality for women.
    Man – But women already have equal rights.
    Feminist – Yes, but equal rights are not enough. We want equality of outcome as well. Even if it is forced.
    Man – Whoa! That’s not equality. If anything, that’s superiority. How do you intend to do that?
    Feminist - Rape! We use rape as a tool to garner sympathy.
    Man - How so?
    Feminist Victimhood is power. When you whine about victimization 24/7 people tend to sympathize with you.
    Man – And then?
    Feminist – Then we use this sympathy to acquire the victim status. We also throw domestic violence, violence against women, et al the mix.
    Man – And then?
    Feminist - This enables us to have the victim card. Once you have the victim card, sky’s the limit. No one dares question your demands.
    Man – And then?
    Feminist – And then we use this to further any and every agenda that we have. Easy peasy.
    Man – But victimhood does not justify privileges. Female victimhood has nothing to do with women being provided privileges in every domain.
    Feminist – Yes, but because of the ingrained chivalry in men, it does, it does justify privileges for women.
    Man – Why don’t men realize it is a sham?
    Feminist – Most men do not perceive that – Chivalry means defending women against evils, not defending women’s evils. They always jump to our rescue and white knight for us and give us anything we demand.
    Man – Goodness. So how can men end this?
    Feminist – They cannot.
    Man- This is where you are mistaken, Ms. Feminist. You underestimate the male intellect.
    Feminist – We’ll see about that.
    Man – Indeed. Indeed we will. Good day.

    • Ar

      David King, a moderator on Avoiceformen, is a white knight and a self-confessed Equity feminist.

    • Mark Wharton

      The thing is rape hysteria hurts real rape victims also. These feminists don’t care about those raped, they just want to demonize men, pure and simple.

    • Auntie Alias

      “If anything, that’s superiority.”

      LOL

  • Bluedrgn

    “I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.”

    Yeah… that is clearly not rape. Remember rape is a horrible crime, second only to murder in severity… it’s not something you allow to happen simply because you’re tired and want to sleep. Can you imagine letting someone dismember you simply because you were to sleepy to argue about it? Can you imagine letting some steal your TV or murder your dog simply because you wanted to sleep? No? Then you can’t with any reasonable sanity say “I let him rape me because I was too tired to say “no” again”.

    • librtee_dot_com

      That is really..a staggeringly good point.

  • Roberto Matus

    “protection, all i want is protection from males”

  • Chilangringo

    Oh, I think if you check at the Women’s Studies departments of all these colleges you will find they have the answer. And it is really a simple one:

    All women must become lesbians. All men must become gay.

    Swarthmore should just get it over with and go ahead and put that in their student handbook.

    • Swarthless

      Who are you kidding?
      They already are.

  • John Pettimore

    This is COMPLETELY about money. A place like Swarthmore will settle a Title IX lawsuit for a pile of cash (think $750K) rather than risk a jury trial and also get all the bad publicity. The attorney gets 40%. Swarthmore has a $1.6 billion endowment. These girls and their lawyers want some of it and are happy to lie (there’s never any actual evidence, just graphic accusations and tear-jerking) and destroy some college boy’s life because it’s very profitable. Period.

    • The Pragmatician

      Very good points.

    • Auntie Alias

      You do realize that Title IX is only applicable in the U.S., right? And that rape occurs to people who aren’t in college?

      • The Pragmatician

        You do realize that Swarthmore is in the U.S., right?

        • Auntie Alias

          So “This is COMPLETELY about money” is only applicable to the U.S.? It was a ridiculous, illogical statement.

          • The Pragmatician

            The article is in *Philadelphia Magazine* about a *Pennsylvania* college. Learn how to read.

  • Auntie Alias

    If a person says no and the other person continues, it’s rape.

    • Mark Wharton

      You have never seen a show or book that has a large female viewership where a woman says no once to see if the guy is a real man and won’t take no as an answer. You could consider that rape, but it is definately of a different severity then a violent rape. Just like assaults can be varying degrees.

      • Auntie Alias

        With a large female viewship? I’d say that holds true regardless of the target audience but especially if it’s men.

        Generally, the law assigns a higher degree of severity when there are threats, force, or a weapon involved.

    • Mateusz82

      Not under the law. If a man says no, and the woman continues, it’s not rape.

      • Auntie Alias

        If you’re talking U.S. law and PIV sex, of course it isn’t. It’s still sexual assault.

        • Mark Wharton

          In theory yes, but really hardly anyone cares about a man’s consent.

          • Auntie Alias

            We all should care.

        • cepheid

          Auntie Alias doesn’t think that personhood applies to men. She repeats the hateful assertion that men can’t get raped during PIV intercourse. I truly hope you don’t have a son, because your attitude towards men and boys is disgusting.
          ‘Rape culture’ is a moral panic that’s out of control and which does nothing to help the victims of sexual violence. According to gender activists, women don’t recognise that they’ve been raped until they’ve had the correct political training. That’s how we get fraudulent statistics like the 1 in 4 or 5 lie, and even though its been discredited by rape researchers many times, it gets trumpeted by feminists because it fits their victimhood narrative. Here’s another fact, rape is a relived and despised. No amount of reasoned debate matters though because the existence of rape culture has become a hermetically sealed fact: questioning the existence of rape culture is evidence of rape culture. To say that the women in the article above have been raped is ridiculous and extremely harmful to the actual victims of rape, just ask RAINN.

          • Auntie Alias

            You conveniently ignored that I was talking about the law. Men can’t legally be raped through forced PIV intercourse in the U.S. because the FBI’s definition of rape doesn’t include it. Men can’t legally be raped in Canada because there is no such charge as rape. Rape and sexual assault are repugnant no matter who the victim is. It takes a terrible emotional toll.

            As for the “1 in 4 or 5 lie”:

            http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/sexcrimes/sas/statistics.php
            “A 1984 study found that one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted during her lifetime. (J. Brickman and J. Briere, “incidence of Rape and Sexual Assault in an Urban Canadian Population”, The International Journal of Women’s Studies, Vol. 7 no. 3 1984)”

            NISVS 2010 Summary Report
            The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey
            http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/2010_report.html
            “Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives.”

            An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales (2013)
            http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/Statistics2.php
            “1 in 5 women (aged 16 – 59) has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16.”

            Serious question: What’s your definition of rape culture?

          • cepheid

            The CDC study is based on terrible methodology and has been discredited, most recently by Christina Hoff Sommers in her factual feminist series, you should check it out on youtube.

            The 1 in 4 myth originated from an infamous 1985 survey by radical feminist Mary Koss, and has subsequently become a factoid that wont die. It’s a preposterous statistic (recently repeated by the White House!) but it fits the hard line feminist narrative so it’s become un-P.C to question.

            http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2014/04/the_white_house_joins_the_war_.html
            As for the legal morass that punishes male victims of female rape, guess which groups fight against justice and equality for men? Guess which groups want to abolish women’s prisons and reduce women’s sentences even further for identical crimes? Gender feminism has become a hate movement that’s a sad shadow of its former self. How do I define rape culture? Certainly not one where less than 1% of men are responsible for all rapes and rapists are despised, and where the incidence of rape is at a historically tiny number. 1 in 40 (or 50?) women being the victim of sexual assault is still far too high, and victim blaming is evil and needs to be stamped out, but it doesn’t help to perpetuate male vilifying myths that have no basis in reality.

          • Auntie Alias

            I see. So the CDC is wrong when it supports what feminists say but when it suits the MRA agenda, it’s right. I’m not interested in anything Christina Hoff Sommers has to say.

            I cited two other sources, none of which was the Koss study.

            “Guess which groups want to abolish women’s prisons and reduce women’s sentences even further for identical crimes?”

            That is one of the most bizarre claims I’ve heard. The only ones I hear talking about it are MRAs.

            Rape culture isn’t about the frequency of rape; it’s the attitudes about rape and that includes victim-blaming.

          • cepheid

            Well right back at you. You’ve cherry picked ‘activist research’ from the International Journal of Women’s Studies (what are the chances that Mary Koss’s survey appears in the footnotes?), and now you’re bizarrely claiming that rape culture has nothing to do with the frequency of rape! You’re not interested in facts or data because it never was about evidence, just some ineffable culture that can’t be disproven.

          • Auntie Alias

            And the UK study?

            Re rape culture, not everything in the world has to be scientifically proven to be valid. We can’t prove or disprove the existence of racism either. That doesn’t make it any less real. The ones who deny racism exists are the ones who don’t want to held accountable for perpetuating it. The people who deny rape culture don’t want rapists to be held accountable.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            As any logical person could see, the study is designed with a gender biased views in the center, obviously a result would suggest a strong gender bias but if a gender neutral survey is designed then a different picture emerges, the one, that says human beings are imperfect and people are not bad but individuals are bad and the problems are human problems not gender problems. You can see the dishonesty here, where “insertion, vagina” is defined as sex assault but “enveloping, penis” is not. It is as if, people already have the end result in mind and they merely designed a survey to fit their result. If you say equal and equal terms then why you would not approach it in equal and fair terms? This is called intellectual dishonesty and one can clearly see these intellectually dishonest people belong to a particular ideological belief system where bias against opposite gender is rampant and sits in the core of that belief system.

            It has run its course since it is currently being run by extremist group of people who are taking it to extreme at an exponential rate that feminism is on fast paced to meet expiry date as it happened in history in these situations. Unfortunately feminists can not engineer future since nature has its own way of reacting back and eventually history would repeat itself which is people would stand against unfairness, injustice, dictatorship, etc. And what is great is that both men and women are taking stand against it as it happened throughout the history, the same men and women who took care of each other throughout the history and that something can not change, because its nature’s forces at work.

          • Auntie Alias

            Wait, the CDC did quantify “made to penetrate” and categorized it as sexual violence. How is that biased?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Read the full report, http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

            Page 17:

            How NISVS Measured Sexual Violence
            -
            Among women, rape includes vag*i*nal, ora*al, or ana*al penetration by a male using his p*e*nis. It
            also includes vag*i*nal or ana*al penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
            -
            Among men, rape includes or*aal or aa*nal penetration by a male using his p*e*nis. It also
            includes ana*al penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

            Not biased, yeah right!

          • Auntie Alias

            I realize that but it does account for cases of “made to penetrate”. The numbers are there so what does it matter how it’s classified from a statistical standpoint?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Say what ???? Are you crazy or something? If men penetrate then it is rape and women force men to penetrate i.e. envelopes men’s penis then it is not? One is charged with rape and other is charged with sexual assault. You are a rape apologist just like Adele Mercier.

          • Auntie Alias

            I can’t help how the FBI and the CDC define rape! The numbers for “made to penetrate” are available in the study so they’re not hiding anything.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            “That is one of the most bizarre claims I’ve heard. The only ones I hear talking about it are MRAs.”

            Harriet Herman, and she is not MRAs, the most bizarre, eh?

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-crooks-should-not-be-jailed-299895

            http://www.standard.co.uk/news/womens-prisons-should-all-close-within-a-decade-7240659.html

          • Auntie Alias

            Those articles show that two women think that way. The original question was, “Guess which groups want to abolish women’s prisons and reduce women’s sentences even further for identical crimes?” Your articles don’t prove that feminists AS A GROUP endorse the idea.

          • BozoerRebbe

            “rape culture” – a term invented by misandrists to criminalize men.

  • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

    Woman said no. He raped her. He didn’t respect the FACT she said no. NO means NO. Here come the MRA’s from A Voice for Misogynists to whine and bellyache about male sexuality being demonized by uh, teaching consent! Amazing how that works innit? Consent is something men don’t want to deal with because they know they coerce women. That’s what they’re all upset about. I say we teach consent everywhere. No finally has to mean no.

    • RiseOfDivergents

      Hey Feminist, you are not a rape expert yet you claim to be one. You know nothing about coercion, women are coercing men in almost equal numbers. The citation for you and for others:

      Four-in-10 U.S. high school boys and young college men say they were
      coerced into sex or sexual behavior and 95 percent said a female
      acquaintance was the aggressor. 18 percent report sexual coercion by
      physical force; 31 percent say they were verbally coerced; 26 percent
      describe unwanted seduction by sexual behaviors; and 7 percent say they
      were compelled after being given alcohol or drugs.
      http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2014/03/25/4-in-10-high-school-boys-young-men-report-coerced-sex/3421395770501/#ixzz2xBABG5Bf

      and the time article: http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of-young-men-say-theyve-had-unwanted-sex/

      False rape accusation is close to 40%:
      http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/05/02/false-rape-accusations-may-be-more-common-than-thought/
      http://ncfm.org/libraryfiles/Children/rape/greer.pdf

      Let people decide how sexist and bigot you feminists are.

      • Auntie Alias

        “women are coercing men in almost equal numbers”

        One study in which less than 300 boys and men participated and no equivalent study where the same questions were put to girls and women do not prove your point of equivalence.

        “False rape accusation is close to 40%”

        1. Fox: “Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing.”

        Only a small percentage of cases are referred to the FBI so the Innocence Project figures can’t be extrapolated to all cases. Nowhere does the writer claim false accusations are close to 40%.

        2. Loyola: Nowhere does the writer claim false accusations are close to 40%.

        “Let people decide how sexist and bigot you feminists are.”

        Let people decide how sexist and bigoted you MRAs are.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          Fox: “If the foregoing results can be extrapolated, then the rate of false
          reports is roughly between 20 (if DNA excludes an accused) to 40 percent
          (if inconclusive DNA is added).” Author does say false rape cases is 40 percent when inconclusive DNA is added.

          • Auntie Alias

            “If the foregoing results can be extrapolated”

            https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

            It must be stressed that the sexual assault referrals made to the FBI ordinarily involve cases where (1) identity is at issue (there is no consent defense), (2) the non-DNA evidence linking the suspect to the crime is eyewitness identification, (3) the suspects have been arrested or indicted based on non-DNA evidence, and (4) the biological evidence (sperm) has been recovered from a place (vaginal/rectal/oral swabs or underwear) that makes DNA results on the issue of identity virtually dispositive.

            Notice the part about the absence of a no-consent defense? These cases involve the identification of suspects so naturally the exclusion rate by DNA analysis is going to be high. Most victims know their rapists so identification is not the issue; consent is. That’s why the results can’t be extrapolated to all cases.

            “Feminists are know for lying not MRAs”

            LOL. I’ll just address your point about RAINN: They (erroneously) said:

            In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming ‘rape culture’ for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

            Note the part about systemic barriers. That alludes to rape culture. They aren’t denying it but they are claiming it’s not responsible. Most feminists think that statement is garbage.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          Regarding the coercion of men and women, there is parity, here you go:
          30% of Men and 32% of Women reported se*exual coercion by their most recent heteros*exual partner ; 2.1% of Men reported forced vagynal s*eex vs 1.6% of Women ; 2.4% of Men reported forced ora*al or ana*al sex vs 1.6% of Women.
          http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1022456626538

          Obviously people would decide.

          • Auntie Alias

            I don’t have access to Springer articles and I don’t see what you’re quoting in the abstract. It’s a study conducted with men so how could it have stats on women’s experiences?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Then get the fking access. I pay money to read peer reviewed research articles because I am interested in truth. Also, look on Google, it has been discussed on the web. Now move your lazy ass.

          • Auntie Alias

            Don’t curse at me because I’m not willing to spend money to review the study you pointed to.

          • BozoerRebbe

            Who made you the language nanny? You accuse men of the vilest crimes but get your panties all in bunch over a word? You’re a totalitarian supremacist.

    • Mike Powers

      Yeah, that’s the thing I don’t get here. She said “no” and he kept trying. Why is this being held up as an example of How Awful Things Have Become? When she says “no”, you’re done, bro, get the hell out of bed.

      Acquiescence is not consent. Refusal to struggle is not consent.

  • Auntie Alias

    The fatal flaw in this article is the focus on the victim’s actions instead of the perpetrator’s. She said no. He ignored it and carried on. <– That's the part the courts care about.

    • Bluedrgn

      “In the context of rape, submission due to apprehension or terror is not
      real consent. There must be a choice between resistance and
      acquiescence. If a woman resists to the point where additional
      resistance would be futile or until her resistance is forcibly overcome,
      submission thereafter is not consent.”
      Source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/consent

      It’s clear in the example above that she did resist until such resistance was futile. She could have kept saying “no”. She could have gotten up and left. She could have kneed him in the nuts to make her point… Instead she consented to sex so that she could go to sleep.

      Rape is a horrible and violent crime… you don’t allow horrible violence to be done to you simply because you want to go to sleep… Saying that this example is rape trivializes the experience of real rape victims.

      • Auntie Alias

        While the following case isn’t the same, the court’s findings included:

        “To be legally effective, consent must be freely given.”
        “The mens rea of sexual assault contains two elements: intention to touch and knowing of, or being reckless of or wilfully blind to, a lack of consent on the part of the person touched.”
        http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1684/index.do

        In my non-legal opinion, once the woman quoted in the article said no, it was incumbent on her partner to ensure that a change of heart on her part was clear and unambiguous. Judging by her description, her partner was wilfully blind to her lack of consent.

        • Bluedrgn

          From the same source I linked above.. “Consent is either express or implied. Express, when it is given viva voce, or in writing; implied, when it is manifested by signs, actions, or facts, or by inaction or silence, which raise a presumption that the consent has been given.”

          The bottom line is, a person doesn’t just allow horrible violence to be committed against them just because they want to get to sleep. If I was on a jury, I would have to rule that there was implied consent because she had many other options other than letting him do his thing, just so she could get some sleep..

          I can agree that he should acted poorly and he should have stopped…. but this situation just doesn’t rise to the level an extremely violent crime that warrants sending this young man to jail for years and years.

          • Auntie Alias

            Whoa, can we agree that a legal dictionary isn’t the final word on the subject? The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled there is no such thing as implied consent. I don’t know about how that’s treated in the U.S. but don’t imagine things are that much different.

            You keep mentioning how extreme and violent rape is. Rape is violent because it’s a violation of one’s body. It’s not necessary to threaten or restrain or beat a victim for it to be a violent act. The act of unwanted touching is also sexual violence. I certainly hope you aren’t going to claim it isn’t.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            “can we agree that a legal dictionary isn’t the final word on the subject? ” yet, you guys bring dictionary definition to define your feminism when actions say otherwise.

          • Auntie Alias

            If you see me do it, be sure to point it out.

          • Bluedrgn

            The supreme court of Canada is hardly the authority on law in the USA. It’s about as valid as if I quoted a legal decision from Russia.

            And no, I don’t think unwanted touching is necessarily “violence”. Touching someone’s shoulder to get their attention is NOT the same as punching someone in the face. To say the situation in the article is the same as violently assaulting someone is like saying picking up a $5 dollar bill off the sidewalk is the same as robbing someone at gunpoint. Or that calling someone a bad word is the same as attempted murder. It’s absurd.

          • Auntie Alias

            I’m talking about unwanted SEXUAL touching, not a tap on the shoulder.

      • Mike Powers

        “you don’t allow horrible violence to be done to you simply because you want to go to sleep”

        You don’t give people fatal electric shocks just because someone told you that it was an experiment and they’d be OK, either.

        Oh wait, actually, you do (Milgram Experiment).

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