Let the Debate Begin

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Like it or not, the quarterback debate will dominate over the coming days (at least). Michael Vick‘s injury allowed Nick Foles to creep back into the conversation, and the second-year quarterback did enough in his spot start Sunday to keep that conversation churning –right into Dallas Week.

Let’s try to get our heads around the situation before the madness sets in.




Where We Stand

LeSean McCoy's quote immediately following the Eagles' 31-20 win over the Bucs seems like a good jumping off point.

"Nick Foles can play. Mike is the starter," he said. "Coach Kelly made that clear, but if he needs Nick to step in and make some plays, he'll do that. He's shown that. Mike's the guy we go with. He's the starting quarterback, no matter what the town says or the outsiders want. It's Coach Kelly's call and that's the call he's made."

Kelly held a quarterback competition this summer and Vick won it. When he did, Kelly proclaimed that Vick was the "starter for the season." There is an understanding within the locker room that Kelly is committed to Vick. McCoy did not lose sight of that despite Foles' strong showing in Tampa.

If healthy, the starting job likely still belongs to the the veteran. But Vick is not 100 percent.

Who Starts Against the Cowboys?

I asked Vick at his locker on Friday if he could guarantee that he would be back for the Dallas game. He said yes. Vick mentioned that there are only so many opportunities to play the Cowboys and he didn't want to miss out.

It all boils down, of course, to whether the hamstring cooperates. Vick is still not all the way back and suggested to Comcast that "it's going to be a long road" to get to 100 percent.

It's a big game, no doubt, but it's difficult to picture Vick starting against the Cowboys unless he is playing without restriction. If nothing else, Foles' strong showing over the last game-plus gives Kelly confidence that he has a QB who can hold it down until Vick gets right.

By the numbers

Passing

Name
Completions
Attempts
Comp. %
Yards
TD
INT
Michael Vick7113254%1,18552
Nick Foles416167%54260

Rushing

Name
Attempts
Yards
TD
Michael Vick333072
Nick Foles631

Quality of Competition

Two of Vick's three losses were to the Broncos and Chiefs -- the only two remaining undefeated teams in the NFL. The bulk of Foles' work has come against the Giants and Bucs, who are now a combined 0-11.

New York's defense is one of the league's worst. Tampa's, though, was ranked fourth in the NFL in yards allowed coming in and was yielding 17.5 points per game. No team had scored more than 23 points against the Bucs this season before the Eagles put up 31, thanks in large part to Foles' four-touchdown day (three passing, one rushing).

"I don't think it would have mattered who started this game," said Jason Kelce. "I think we would have came out on top. I think Nick obviously did a great job, spectacular throws downfield. But I think Mike can make those throws as well."

Red Zone And Turnovers

Many in the Foles' camp will pitch their tents here.

Vick has thrown two interceptions and is credited with a pair of fumbles lost. Foles, in significantly fewer snaps, has yet to turn the ball over.

"If you do throw a pick you always have to come back firing," said Foles, "but I think it's just really understanding what's going on with the defense, going through the reads, not trying to force the ball and just being smart with it because turnovers, as you all have seen, can be a big determining factor in the game so just trying to be smart with the ball."

The Eagles entered Sunday's game ranked 30th in red zone efficiency but went 2-for-3 against Tampa. With Vick at the helm, the Eagles are 5 for 14 (36 percent) in the red zone. With Foles they are 4 for 7 (57 percent). But again, a much smaller sample size.

"It's tremendously important to be sharp in the red zone. You really want to get those points," said Foles. "I think the big thing is preparation; you see what they're going to do and you really have to take advantage of it. You have to be on time. You have to be sharp on your throws, precision, accuracy. And you can't hold onto the ball too long because that's when bad things happen down there because everything is faster."

DeSean Jackson, who has never been much of a factor inside the 20, has two red zone touchdowns over the last two games. Both passes were from Foles. Sunday was also Jackson's first two-TD performance of his career.

Bottom Line

The organization was prepared to move on from Vick this offseason but all that changed when they landed Kelly. If Vick was to have a resurgence it would be in this offense, so they rolled the dice.

As hoped, Vick's athletic gifts allow this offense to hum the way its creator intended...at least until it unexpectedly clunks out.

Foles is not necessarily the most natural fit for this system (it 's still strange watching him run the read option from time to time) but there are elements that match his game. The up-tempo, quick strike approach appears to suit him just fine, for example.

Though the preference is to have a mobile quarterback run the show, the Eagles will take a franchise quarterback no matter what his style is.  They don't know if Foles has what it takes yet. If they were convinced he was the guy, Vick wouldn't be here. If they were confident he wasn't a franchise player, he'd likely be in Kansas City right now.

As it stands he's in Philly, serving as the backup to the 33-year-old Vick. Kelly has left himself some wiggle room, but looks at Vick as his starter when healthy.

We have seen the best-laid plans go awry before. When you get hurt, someone else gets an audition. Sometimes the audition goes so well that the  job switches hands permanently.

It doesn't feel like we're there yet. But if the audition continues and continues to go well, the powers that be will have more and more to think about.

 

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  • Loke1988

    Good morning Vick lovers. 7, BB&AS etc…

    This just in:
    Riley Cooper actually CAN get open.
    The screen game is back off the milk carton with Foles at the helm.
    Desean Jackson really is a red zone threat
    Foles can score with his legs too

    I could go on but…it really just speaks for itself.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      “Riley Cooper actually CAN get open”

      lol. That’s funny.

      • Justin

        You didn’t watch the game, then?

        • Wilbert31

          I watched it. I saw that “worthless” #2 WR go for 100+ and a TD. Weird right?

          • Justin

            I want to be clear that I’m not sure Cooper can do it consistently, but he did yesterday. And I don’t think Vick takes the shot Foles did.

          • Brent E. Sulecki

            yeah I agree. Coop wont have days like that too often. but if you get 4 or 5 catches for 50 or 60 yards. which is middle of what he did yesterday. it opens other guys up. I will take half those stats from yesterday and be happy with it from Coop.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            So Vick isn’t taking a shot to Riley man on man verses a rookie corner? Do you watch the games? Vick took that exact shot in the KC game (I beleive) and Cooper didn’t make the play.

            Cooper had a good game. And the likelihood you see that from him again…regardless of QB…is slim to none.

    • anon

      Let’s wait for the all 22. I think the Bucs played zone, which for Kelly is like taking candy from a baby.

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        It is. I was scratching my head like…eh? I know they are a zone team, but I can’t beleive they watched game film and came away with the idea that playing zone against this O was a good idea.

        I mean dudes were wide open all over the place. Kelly must have squealed like a little girl when he saw that. lol

        • anon

          Yeah I know revis has been playing a lot of zone which is kind of dumb b/c you paid dearly for the best cover CB in the league.
          Also you have great safeties in case your CBs get beat there will actually be people there to lay the smackdown. I’m just glad all of our players missed the Goldson island.

      • Loke1988

        But no for Tom Brady or Drew Breeze? Im confused.

      • ztom6

        if it had been Vick at QB they probably would have played man.

        • aub32

          Against Kelly everyone needs to play man regardless of QB. Watch out Kiffin.

          • anon

            Agree — if we played against zone teams then only way we would lose if our defense.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Naw..they are a zone team..I assumed they would switch up…I was wrong. But that’s just an example of how being stubborn in your ways and refusing to make adjustments will hurt you.

          • aub32

            It was so stupid to go get Revis only to have him pass off our best receiver to someone else in zone coverage.

    • Brent E. Sulecki

      go on. I want more

      • Loke1988

        OK heres another:

        The entire Philly media has their collective head up their arses not seeing how crystal clear it is that Foles is the guy outside of one Jeremiah Trotter. Admittedly I dont read and watch everything but from what I’ve observed that’s the case.

        • Nicholas Disilvestro

          hold me <3

          • Loke1988

            awe come here litty Nicky.

    • Nah__Roots

      And we should expect similar results the rest of the way, right?

      • Loke1988

        Why not? You have a young QB who survived the season of hell last year with a team that quit, virtually no o line and no McCoy for the most part who is maturing, and making big strides confidence wise right before your eyes. Did you see his demeanor in the PC after the game? Something has clicked. Tampa’s D is no joke. Brady and Breeze didm’t do as well as Foles did against them last week in humid 86 degree Tampa weather with the Buics desperate coming off a bye.

  • Loke1988

    Oh and McCoy is an idiot. Not that we didn’t know that after his Twitter outburst etc. Correction, I shouldn’t say “we”. Considering some of the posts I’ve seen on this board I’m pretty sure many others wont agree. I saw him walking off the field in the tunnel right next to his pal Vick with a concerned look on his face. His mouth was moving really fast, my guess uttering words of encouragement to Vick about his job security or should I say, lack there of.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      “Oh and McCoy is an idiot…”

      Do you read what you write before you write it?

  • Wayne

    This is what the Buccaneers defense looks like: Jets 18, Saints 16, Patriots 23, Cardinals 13, Eagles 31. Foles and the Eagles hung more points on these guys than Brees or Brady.

    It’s stunning how much better Foles is in the red zone. He is crisp and efficient, and able to convert. And he threw a couple of bombs in the long-range game.

    Whether or not he’s the long term solution, we need Foles next Sunday against the Cowboys. When you’re facing Tony Romo with a defense like ours, you must win the turnover battle or you’re toast. Vick is too turnover-prone and we can’t risk that. If Shady continues to be #1 RB and DJax can retake #1 WR we can win it, but I think Foles gives us the better chance.

    • Loke1988

      Thanks for doing that. I was prepared to use that as a defense but you did it for me. Hats off!

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      O_o

      What’s Vick’s record against Dallas as an Eagle? What’s Foles?

      I’ll wait…

      • theycallmerob

        I thought the past didn’t count in all the arguments against Vick? Remember how nothing was ever his fault? If that’s the case, what’s his record as a starter the last 2 years? I’ll wait.

        • anon

          if foles is the buck hunter vick is the cowboy killer?

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          1. Weren’t you on here crowing about how Foles was undefeated against the Bucs?

          2. Vick’s record as a starter? What’s Foles?

          3. My point was how silly it is to say you’d want Foles against Dallas and not Vick. Say what you want about the man, but his play against the NFC East teams has been stellar in his time here.

          The idea you’d want a guy who hasn’t notched a win against Dallas over the guy who regularly beats them is just silly, regardless of what side of the “debate” you’re on.

          • theycallmerob

            1- no, I wasn’t
            2- Foles has started 8 games. Most on a lame duck team with few weapons last year. And as if Vick is an all-pro? Apples and oranges
            3- nothing about his past play matters. New eagles team and scheme against a new cowboys scheme. I want the hot hand NOW, not in the past, to play next week. That is Foles. Your end rationale just doesn’t make any sense at all. Because Foles hasn’t, he shouldn’t? Weak

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            “Because Foles hasn’t, he shouldn’t? Weak”

            No..because Vick has he should. So Foles is the “hot hand” off of one win?

            It takes so little to impress Philly fans.

          • theycallmerob

            WHAT HAS VICK DONE???? Because it is certainly not “win games”

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            What has Foles done? ‘Cause it’s certainly not win games.

          • theycallmerob

            Sums up your thinking. Im done, I can argue with my dog and get the same feedback.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I’m pointing out what you just said to me…’cause what you said to me made about as much sense as what I said to you.

          • theycallmerob

            Because they’ve started the same number of games? Been in the league the same amount of time? What’s your excuse for why Foles should have more than 1 win this year?

          • Bdawk20

            He knows what he said to you, you just cannot come up with a rational response.

          • Token

            He now has as many wins this year as Vick.

          • Vick Must Go

            Umm… actually he’s won games this year.

          • Bdawk20

            Were you impressed with Vick’s play against the terrible Giants?

          • anon

            I was impressed with the score when he went out. I was not impressed with the score before we got all those turnovers in the 4th quarter.

          • Bdawk20

            The unsustainable runs again. You take away Vick’s runs, which happens, and he won’t make throws.

          • anon

            No throws? We were 7th in passing yds before the Giants game, but keep going.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            So now we’re playing the “what if” subtraction game again. Based on faulty information at that.

            Okay.

          • Andy124

            She was. He was a really good running back that game.

          • Vick Must Go

            Tebow was a good runningback as well. Something else they will both have in common next year… both will be out of the NFL

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            You mean the Giants game where we were up two scores?

            Yes.

          • morgan c

            Okay, now you’ve just lost all credibility, which was already gone anyway but ya… to say you were impressed with 6/14 and 0 TDs, 0 first quarter completions, and fine, about 70 rushing yards that led to ZERO TDs… I mean dude you are just a blind Vick lover now matter what the evidence says. You don’t look at stats and facts and watch the play objectively at all. You just love Vick. And that’s okay, you can love players. That’s what being a fan is all about. But please just don’t try to insert yourself into an otherwise rational debate about the state of the team’s QB play. Seriously, when Vick is let go in the offseason, will you become a Jets or Jags fan just to watch him warm the bench?

          • aub32

            Vick had a 14 yard run that set up a 1 yard TD run. How does that not count as leading to a TD. Context is important. Stop calling people out then omitting key details.

          • Vick Must Go

            Against the worst D in the league… 5/14 for 100 yards. Yes, that game, against the worst D in the league.

          • Nicholas Disilvestro

            do you sleep in a mike vick jersey at night?

          • Vick Must Go

            Vick’s record as a starter since 2011? Foles record as a starter? Go ahead, throw in Foles stats as a ROOKIE and compare.

      • Bdawk20

        You have been proven wrong in every sense of the word, yet you still don’t see it. You are severely missing the fact that Vick is being outplayed by 2nd year 3rd round draft pick. The writing is on the wall, the fact that this debate even exists should tell any rational person that Vick just cannot run an NFL offense efficiently because he refuses to make the throws needed to consistently move an offense. He will always run, which does change the defense, but it doesn’t help him get better as a QB as defenses will contain him and he won’t be able to make the throws necessary. There were throws that even Mike Glennon made yesterday before receivers made it into their breaks that Vick just doesn’t do, it’s necessary for an NFL QB and Vick does not do it for whatever reason.

        • Loke1988

          Your wasting your precious breath talking to her about this.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Where was I proven wrong?

          – That Vick would win the QB comp (check)

          – The the Eagles would win the TB game (check)

          What was I wrong about?

          “Vick just cannot run an NFL offense efficiently because he refuses to make the throws needed to consistently move an offense.”

          How many punts did we have yesterday? To say Vick doesn’t move the offense consistently is funny…how do you think we have the luxury to b*tch and moan about red zone efficiency if we aren’t moving the ball well?

          How are we the #2 ranked offense if we aren’t moving the ball well? If we aren’t moving the ball well, how did we rack up at least 400 yards of offense in 6 games?

          “the fact that this debate even exists”

          The debate exists b/c Philly is in LOVE with the backup QB. Always. That’s just how it is.

          • Token

            lol. So, 26% completions. Thats a loooooooooooot of drops.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            - You going somewhere?
            – Or ’till Vick is gone…b/c you’ve been counting those for awhile…

          • Token

            Vick is gone. You will be gone. Ill pop into the Raiders message boards to say hi from time to time.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Right. Wanna make a bet on that?

            I have no expectations Vick will be here next year. Hell, I didn’t have expectations he’d be here this year. So yeah…keep on wishing..and hoping…and praying…

            lol

          • Bdawk20

            How many punts did we have yesterday? That is your argument? How are we the #2 ranked offense? LeSean McCoy. How are we the worst RZ team int he league? Michael Vick. The debate exists because Foles runs this offense better than Vick.

          • anon

            djax has second most yards in league. pats have beem terrible in the rz too. but i guess that’s b/c brady is terrible. but i’ll let you finish.

          • Bdawk20

            Brady’s receivers are terrible actually. Vick has talent at TE, WR, and RB. He just doesn’t make the throws in the RZ. Djax was shut down until the Giants game after a dry spell and Vick only got him the ball because the Giants DB completely missed the INT. Funny how little we had to see Alex Henery yesterday.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            “Funny how little we had to see Alex Henery yesterday.”

            We only got to the red zone three times.

            “He just doesn’t make the throws in the RZ.”

            So those talented TE/WR haven’t dropped any redzone TDs?

          • Bdawk20

            Why did we only get to the RZ three times? Because Foles threw 2 TD’s from outside the RZ. Receivers dropping TD’s in the RZ COULD be an argument, but this is the NFL, Vick had 3 downs to get the ball in the EZ but didn’t. If you want to count dropped TD passes, you should also count dropped interceptions on throws Vick has made.

          • anon

            what about RZ penalties?

          • Bdawk20

            What about them? Overcome them. There is no excuse.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Oh Jesus…

          • Bdawk20

            If both QB’s can move us in between the 20’s, but Foles is the one who can score TD’s in the RZ, why the argument?

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            He had 1 TD in the RZ last week and 2 this week and now he’s a red zone threat?

            Okay.

          • Bdawk20

            Yes. That is exactly what a RZ threat is.

          • Bdawk20

            http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct Funny how low the % is until you look at the last 1 game…

          • Vick Must Go

            Compare those 3 to Vicks statistics… Even compare them to the last year of statistics.

            I’ll wait…

          • aub32

            Aww man you’re too much. “Overcome them or you suck as a QB”. That’s some stance you have there fella.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            And Vick doesn’t throw TDs outside the redzone? You’re not making sense and that’s not what the argument was. YOU said Vick could move the ball efficiently, and that is factually in correct.

            “you should also count dropped interceptions on throws Vick has made.”

            WHAT?

          • Bdawk20

            You want to count dropped TD’s in Vick’s favor, then you count dropped INT’s against Vick. It’s a simple rule. No one said Vick doesn’t throw TD’s outside of the RZ, I was countering your point of why we were only in the RZ 3 times. You are completely dense and try to twist people’s arguments. It’s obvious Vick throws TD’s outside of the RZ because his RZ efficiency is the lowest in the league!

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I’m not twisting people’s arguments…you’re changing them to fit a point you’re trying to make once it gets debunked.

            What dropped INTs? ‘Cause the bomb to jackson wasn’t a go ahead INT..it was a well placed ball that, try as the DB might (and he trield really, Really, REALLY hard) he couldn’t come down with it. That’s called a well placed high risk throw.

            And you’re trying to say that DROPPED passes in the red zone aren’t a problem. That they don’t contribute directly to RZ efficiency? Come on man.

            You can be pro-Foles all day..but you don’t have to be silly with it.

          • Bdawk20

            It was underthrown, watch the replay.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            it wasn’t underthrown. I’ve seen the replay. But now you’re arguing for INTs that didn’t happen. SMH.

          • Bdawk20

            You are arguing for TD’s that didn’t happen. Dropped TD’s are not TD’s just as dropped INT’s are not INT’s. So you either count both of those or you count none of those. I would prefer to count neither of those, but you insist on counting dropped TD’s.

          • anon

            No one is asking to count dropped TDs, we are saying they were a factor — you never answered my question below.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            No I’m talking about dropped passes…and how that relates to RZ efficiency. You can’t have a convo about red zone efficiency and not mention when a receiver drops a pas thrown right to him..that changes the dynamic of the game.

            SMH

          • Vick Must Go

            I’m not pro-Foles as much as I’m anti-Vick. I’m biased against Vick because I like QBs that can actually throw.

          • #7

            How does a QB be the starter for the majority of their career if they can’t throw

          • Vick Must Go

            Do you think Marino can be a starting QB right now? How about Namath?

            What Vick did in 2004 as a starter is of no consequence. We are talking about here and now. And over the last 2.5 years, Vick’s record speaks for itself.

          • Vick Must Go

            What he did in 2004 is irrelevant. What he did in 2005 is irrelevant. What he did in 2006-2010 is irrelevant. What he has consistently done in the last 2.5 seasons of work is relevant. And yes, in the last 2.5 years he has proven he can’t throw.

          • #7

            So I see how this goes. You’ll be praised and supported by Adam, Richard Colton and Token for being a Foles fanboy yet I will be attacked for supporting Vick.

            I get trolled for my handle while you get praised for yours lol.

            Got it.

          • Vick Must Go

            That does seem to be about the score.

          • #7

            At least you’re honest. Good luck with that

          • anon

            You obviously didn’t look up the facts before making that statement. But i can see you’re operating on perception, which is biased, so i’ll let you finish.

          • Bdawk20

            Sorry, 27th: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

            And if you do the math, you will see we would be lower if not for Foles against the Giants and Bucs.

          • Bdawk20

            Curious as to what you looked up to feel so confident that this was not the case?

          • anon

            PFF had us as 26 w/out Giants game — right after the Falcons, which i’d say isn’t bad company.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Because you’re assuming Vick wouldn’t have scored against the Giants and Bucs. lol. Okay.

          • Bdawk20

            Yes, because I am looking at Vick’s body of work, which is a terrble RZ efficiency. I actually count what has happened, not what you think might have happened because you are blind to stats.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I”m not blind to stats. But to act like RZ efficiency has been all on Vick this year is ignoring the obvious to fit your point. Which you have been doing pretty consistently on this thread.

          • Token

            Explain how Foles steps in and suddenly redzone is great? Same players hes working with. And Vick goes 26%. Explain please.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            You’re still missing the point aren’t you? Geez man..stop commenting if you aren’t going to read what has been said.

          • Token

            explain the point? Theres another point being made other than Vick has proven once again he cant get the job done?

          • Vick Must Go

            Token is my hero. Get her Token!

          • anon
          • Token

            Well, no not really. 1 TD his last 3 games.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            You stay missing the point…

            You can’t argue M. Vick can’t move the offense when we have been moving the ball up and down the field at will. The only way you get to argue about red zone efficiency is if you get there…which means WE ARE MOVING THE BALL.

          • Vick Must Go

            Are you saying Foles didn’t move the ball? So again, if they can both move the ball, but Foles can score… then where’s the argument?

          • morgan c

            No, that’s patently false. Philly was not in love with the back-up QB from 2001- 2005, when McNabb was among the best in the game.

          • Vick Must Go

            Give us a good QB, and we won’t be in love with the backup.

            When Vick is benched, I’m not going to love the backup

        • aub32

          I’m not lumping my argument in with BBaaS, but you are being ridiculous. “Vick can’t run an NFL offense efficiently”. He was leading the #2 offense in the league into the fifth week of the season. The offense has had over 400 yards everygame this season. That’s happened maybe half a dozen times in history. This offense is doing things in terms of effectiveness through the air and ground that have never been seen before, and all of this is being done with one major receiving threat who is 5’10”. Now Vick may not be running the offense the way you want him to, but that’s your problem. He can clearly run an NFL offense.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            My argument is simply you don’t rack up 400 yards of offense into the “fifth week of the season” and not be able to move the ball efficiently.

            And for the record FOLES can clearly run the offense as well. I think we punt more with him there (that’s not a knock just an observation) and with Vick those punts likely end up field goals at bare minimum…but he clearly showed command of the offense and played a good game.

            My issue is the GRAND overreaction to that. He did what a backup is supposed to do, but now he’s the “hot hand” and the consensus starter.

            O_o

          • Token

            Yards are worthless without points. We werent scoring points. Well, imaginary points maybe.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            And you’re butting into an argument missing the point again.

          • aub32

            Where is this notion that we weren’t scoring points? We put up 30 twice and were on pace against NY to put up 30+. We didn’t get 30 against the Chiefs or Denver, the two remaining unbeaten teams in the league.

          • Token

            Vick had contributed 1 TD in his last three games. McCoy will get his regardless. 1 TD and 3 turnovers in his last 3 starts.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            SO that 1 yard TD run against the Giants Vick didn’t contribute to?

          • anon

            So now Vick has nothing to do with the run game. They don’t want to play fair.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Vick apparently doesn’t do anything.

            – Doesn’t score between the 20s
            – Doesn’t move the offense
            – Doesn’t make NFL throws

            I mean damn. However did the man win the QB comp this off season with all his deficiencies.

          • Wilbert31

            He won the preseason QB battle because teams were playing vanilla D.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Well that doesn’t make Foles seem any better now does it.

          • Wilbert31

            Not to you I suppose.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Read what you wrote:

            “He won the preseason QB battle because teams were playing vanilla D.”

            So Foles played against the same “vanilla D” but couldn’t make it happen…yet this makes him the better QB?

            Okay.

          • Wilbert31

            In the regular season above average defenses (KC, TB) start disguising coverages, blitzes, etc. Vick struggles to recognize, call the right protections, make the right reads, etc. Thus, during the regular season, Foles has outplayed vick by a landslide. See the 133 QBR vs TB. What was Vicks vs. KC?
            Not only that, but he has debunked all of the negatives listed by you, #7 and Dutch (can’t throw over 10 yards, Shady can’t run with Foles in, yada yada yada).
            Get it? Didn’t think so.

          • anon

            What kind of defense did Tampa play?

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            A point everyone is missing.

            It will be my personal football fantasy if from now on all defense played zone against us. I’d shout for joy.

            lol

          • Vick Must Go

            Again, regular season stats trump preseason. And Foles is whooping the pants off Vick in regular season stats. Hold onto those 15 attempts that Vick had to win the competition if you really want to.

            15 attempts… in the preseason… whoopadie doo

          • aub32

            Wasn’t Foles going against those same defnses? So why didn’t Foles run away with the competition instead of being the only one of the 2 to turn over the ball.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            I mean, Foles did go 21-25 in the first 3 games of the preseason, so let’s not act like he didn’t play well. He failed at throwing away the ball one time in a preseason game, and that ball got picked- if that is what you’re clinging to at week 6 into the season after real life football in which Foles has dominated, then go crazy my friend.

          • anon

            You forgot about the 3 fumbles and no passes over 10yds. You forgot about the intangibles. But read CK’s PC if you want the full report.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Are you and aub32 the same person? Seems like it today. Anyway, the point is the QB competition was based on training camp and pre-season games. Vick indisputably played great, despite Foles’ having a pretty strong pre-season himself. I don’t fault Chip Kelly for succumbing to the allure of Mike Vick – he can make all the throws! He can run so fast! His skill players all look up at to him! Unfortunately, when the games start against real defenses, he has struggled for his 12 year career and continues to struggle today despite one of the smartest offensive minds calling the plays. Look, I wanted Vick to be great in this new offense, and I think we’ll still score a lot of points if Kelly sticks with him, but you have an unflappable, 6’6, smart QB who has executed the offense better than Vick.

          • anon

            Honestly, I really don’t care V or F. I want to win. Its just the crazy Vick bashing that I think is unnecessary. Foles had a great game. Instead of celebrating that we’re arguing about this.

            Vick has played 100 times better than he did last year. The improvement is remarkable. He’s no longer a liability. Foles has improved from pre-season which is great to see. Plenty of backups look good until Ds start preparing for them.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            ” I want to win”

            And there you have it.

          • aub32

            Can you please define struggle? I wouldn’t call leading the #2 offense in the league struggling.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Trying to copy and paste his stat line for the last three games he played… but struggling is a completion percentage of 45% when Kelly’s offense is predicated on hitting high percentage short routes. Foles is 67% and it seems higher because his incompletions are mostly throw-aways when the line doesn’t block well for him and he is just avoiding a sack. Vick is also certainly struggling in the red zone. I think with Chip Kelly at the helm Vick could still be above average – I’m not saying he is terrible like some of the fringe people – but I just don’t see how someone can prefer Vick once they have seen what kind of QB Foles can be under Chip against a top 5 defense.

          • aub32

            So having TEs drop your passes is struggling in the RZ?

            Vick’s completion percentage is down, but he still picks up yards with his legs. It may matter to you how he gets the ball down the field, but I don’t care. Just move the damn ball.
            ….
            Foles did well, but he did nothing special. There wasn’t a throw that was wow. He played in the confines of the offense. That’s not a bad thing. That can win games, but with this team it’s not going to beat the better teams. Foles would have lost yesterday if Rivers were the QB. That’s why I go with Vick. I think his production and Foles are similar, though they do it differently. However, Vick in the right circumstances can give you a chance in a shootout. Foles is not really a playmaker.

          • Vick Must Go

            Both of Foles TDs in the Giants games were “wow.” The deep passes this week were “wow.”

          • aub32

            A fade in the EZ is wow? Those deep passes weren’t wow. DJax ran threw every zone. The Cooper ball was late and more a good adjustment by Cooper. I tried not to bring this up because I didn’t want anyone thinking I was taking anything away from Foles

          • Wilbert31

            compared to fades from Vick, absoulutely WOW!

          • Vick Must Go

            I haven’t seen a fade in the endzone like that since pre-McNabb. So yes, it was wow. We could have had an incompletion followed by a FG if Vick was in… would you prefer that?

          • Vick Must Go

            A quote from NFL.com on their power rankings:

            “The two deep balls tossed by Nick Foles on Sunday were things of beauty. No offense, but you don’t see that brand of downfield touch from Michael Vick.”

            Not just me, football experts are agreeing with the “wow’ throws. Until you are an expert at NFL.com , I’ll take their word for it.

          • Dutch

            What top 5 Defense? Where are you guys getting these ranking you are so casually throwing out? Did you honestly see a top 5 defense on the field opposing the Eagles yesterday? Tampa Bay is 16th in pass defense and 20th against the run

            These are the top 5 Total Defenses
            1. Houston Texans 252.8
            2. Seattle Seahawks 290.2
            3. Carolina Panthers 299.2
            4. New York Jets 303.8
            5. Kansas City Chiefs 306.3

            Top 5 Passing Defense
            1. Houston Texans 131.3
            2. Seattle Seahawks 188.3
            3. Kansas City Chiefs 189.7
            4. Pittsburgh Steelers 196.0
            5. Indianapolis Colts 201.4

            Top 5 Rushing Defense

            1. Denver Broncos 69.8
            2. New York Jets 75.7
            3. Green Bay Packers 78.2
            4. Carolina Panthers 88.8
            5. Arizona Cardinals 90.7

          • Vick Must Go

            I’ll define it. 54% completion percentage, 34th worst of the 37 QBs with at least 40 attempts. 12th in the league in scoring despite the #1 running offense.

            Vick is garbage. My vote for Foles is 1% based on what Foles can/has done and 99% on what Vick has proven he can’t do.

          • Dutch

            ‘Winning against winless teams is not doing much in the NFL, do you have anything other than that to stake your position? Grand Ma Dutch could have posted the same result had she been summoned to start for the Eagles yesterday.

            it was impossible to loose to Tampa Bay or the Giants, neither are a semblance of a quality NFL Defense. Tampa Bay did not live up to the hype of having a solid defense.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            “Tampa Bay did not live up to the hype of having a solid defense.”

            Yeah. I was surprised. REALLY surprised at how the game played out…no on our end so much, but the ineptness of Tampa’s defense that allowed at least two of those TDs to be possible.

          • Dutch

            Tampa is 16th against the pass, and 20th against the run, I have no idea where these guys are getting the myth about Tampa being a solid defense unless they’re comparing Tampa Bay with the Eagels defense.

          • Adam

            They’re 16th against the pass and 13th against run. And that’s after playing Philly. They were 8th and 10th before this. They held Brees and the Saints to 16 points and Brady to 23. They’re a good defense.

          • JofreyRice

            Not to mention they’re still #6 in points allowed. Although I will admit there were some coverage gaffes for TB, this is just the Vick folks moving the goalposts. There are blown coverages every game, and Foles capitalized on them in the form of points.

            I think the Vick folks were all licking their chops last week, hoping the Tampa D would destroy Foles and end the debate; they’re disappointed.

          • Adam

            I love the way Chip called the game offensively, and I think that lead to a lot of those coverage mistakes. He kept everything short and sweet for the first little while. Dink and dunk and then run the ball. You could tell they had no respect for anything deep and Chip knew it, so then he dialed up a few deep passes that kept them honest. Opened up things for Shady.

            As much as Vick fans like to make it seem like a he makes the system better, it’s the system that makes the QB in this offense.

          • Dutch

            Tampa and the Giants played like winless teams. Which presented the perfect scenario for a back up to come into the game and have success. Now if Foles could manage to duplicate yesterday’s results on a team that has a win or winning record this season then it’s time to imagine some possibilities presently forecast by Foles supporters.

            I’ll say right now, the future of the Eagles lies in neither Vick or Foles arm next season.

          • Andy124

            At one point, end of the first half I think, TB started calling blitzes on every play and getting home with them, really disrupting the offense.

            Chip came out in the second half and called 4 screens in a row. Completely forced TB to play honest. I thought that was awesome.

          • Dutch

            There was as would be expected a lot of hype about Tampa Bay being a solid defense when it was clear yesterday that was the furthest from the truth. Tampa Bay didn’t resemble even a middle of the road defense yesterday. What was impressive, or maybe because it was against the Eagles Defense, but the rookie Gannon was impressive in defeat.

          • JofreyRice

            I think you mean Glennon.

            Dutch, they were better than the #6 ranked defense in points allowed, and the Foles led Eagles rang up 31 points on them. Didn’t you talk about what a good test for Foles it would be? Seems that you’re applying some retroactive curve on that test now that he’s done well.

            It’s tough for you to swallow such a bitter pill as an Eagles win, but you have to.

          • Dutch

            The Eagles avg 24 pts a game with or without Foles, I still say it was a good game for all the Eagles young guys. Specifically for Foles facing a tamable defense that inspires fear in nobody. Simply because they were winless like the Giants before them.

            If your back up can not look good against the winless teams during the weakest portions of your schedule when can he look good?

          • JofreyRice

            The fact that they were winless had nothing to do with their defense. They released their QB and went to a 3rd round rookie. The horrible defense argument made sense last week, with Foles coming in and, tossing TD’s against the Giants.

            Tampa Bay has played tough defense this year, particularly in the redzone. That’s not an opinion. They were in the top 10 in points allowed, and are still at #6. Yards don’t mean squat for the scoreboard or W-L record, points do.

          • Dutch

            That can’t be proven because it’s your opinion. The Bucs didn’t look any part of being some fearsome defense yesterday. And we have different criteria, because in my opinion wins and losses matter.

          • JofreyRice

            No, it’s more than an opinion. It can be proven at pro football reference dot com. I gave you the link before, I’m sure you haven’t followed it. Below that original link, which I’ll repost–showing TB is #6 in overall defense scoring prevention–is the link showing they are #3 in redzone defense.

            http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm

            http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-red-zone-scoring-pct

            You think they “didn’t look any part” because they allowed TD’s to Foles. That’s called circular reasoning.

            “Yards don’t mean squat for the scoreboard or W-L record, points do.” – That is my response to you referencing their pass yardage and rush yardage rankings. They are less relevant than the points allowed, which is the stat you’re attempting to toss out.

          • Dutch

            I know you’ve not defined Circular reasoning correctly, and sure that it’s not what I think about Tampa’s Defense but what they’ve demonstrated early and often against the Eagles yesterday in their contest. The Eagles have a sound offense there is no questions in the league about that. Unlike the Tampa Bay Defense, the Eagles on offense shows clearly they are a cut above and spectacular in action.

          • JofreyRice

            You started with the belief that Foles was a bad QB that could not beat a good defense. He beat a good defense, so you then altered your definition of Tampa’s defense to not disagree with your original premise. You could also call this fallacy “No true Scotsman”. It’s faulty reasoning, either way.

          • Dutch

            We have to agree to disagree, as usual because there was nothing during yesterday’s game, or prior Tampa Games to distinguish that defense as being good. It’s long been known you and I have difference criteria and preferences on talent in the NFL.

          • JofreyRice

            Fair enough!

          • Dutch

            The other guy brought up a good point, If I would have told you before the game that Tampa’s Goldson would leave the middle following Foles look offs and allowed DJax to run across his face going deepest in the routes, would you have believed a Pro Bowl Safety would have made such a novice mistake in coverage not once, but twice on scoring passes to DJax?

            That is not a mistake a good safety on a solid defense makes repeatedly. The Eagles would take that defense every week.

          • JofreyRice

            I think it was two deep, and Goldson was supposed to pass Jackson off to Barron, but Barron jumped on Celek, who was underneath him, on the 36 yard strike.

            Everyone makes mistakes in coverage. It’s easy to say it was a gimme TD because they made it look like a gimme TD. Foles saw it, and pulled the trigger. The ball was delivered on the money for 40+ yards in the air. I’m not saying the guy is the next coming, but I think you have to tip your hat to that, and to the game he played, as a whole, without looking for ways to minimize it.

            I would have liked to see Tampa run some more man coverage. I think it would actually provide a better backdrop to compare Vick vs. Foles, because Vick saw so much man. Considering the way the Eagles O looked against man coverage, and the fact that Vick’s health is shaky, even if he remains the starter, I think we will get a chance to see Foles deal with man coverage, eventually.

          • Dutch

            Don’t mistake everything I say as being negative. Both plays where he looked of Goldson were brilliant strategies and effective. Personally, I would have never believed that a pro Bowl Safety would be stupified by the same look off for scoring plays of some distance twice, not from a solid defense anchored by two pro bowlers in the back end of that defense.

            Whether it was play calling, preparation or instincts by Foles, those were impressive plays that I would hope duplicate themselves over and over again this season. But those aren’t plays that work against solid defenders.

            There is little doubt the kid is paying attention and picking up traits that come in useful.

          • Mike Calabrese

            Hey Dutch direct quote # 2 from you prior to the game:

            Dutch • 3 days ago

            I don’t agree, Tampa has talent and potential, The Front is similar to Kansas City, and the Back End Defenders speak for themselves. this is a quality defense and should not be taken for granted. This miles ahead of the defense the Eagles faced last season. I also don’t have a doubt that gront 4 is going to massage Foles once or twice and play with him on the back end.

            This is a good game for our young guys on offense, Lane Johnson and Nick Foles just to name two….

          • Dutch

            Easily that was a mischaracterization of the Tampa Bay defense. I don’t deny making that projection, but that was way off when we got an extensive view of that defense. That was a defense that Foles could pick apart much like he did last season. That was similar to the Eagles having the troubles they encountered with Nnamdi and DRC in a awkward scheme the last two seasons.

            I still believe that was a great game for the young guys to build confidence. Foles included in young guys.

            However, it doesn’t change my mind that Foles is not the starter for this offense, and doubtful if he’ll have a better career than Casell, Ponder or Brandon Weeden. But I do reserve that he can be a fairly productive backup QB and exploit opportunities in relief where teams don’t prepare to face him.

          • Adam

            Well Mike, that was when it fit his argument. It doesn’t anymore so therefore it’s wrong.

          • Dutch

            A good defense doesn’t let DJax run crossing routes across the safety’s face. This was a Pro Bowl Safety not some schmuck who fell off a turnip truck. That’s not the traits of a solid defense.

          • JofreyRice

            whoooo man. This is ice world. I knew he said some of this stuff, but didn’t feel like looking it up. Holy cow–even mentions the 8th ranked run defense, and today he mentions how they are 12th or 15th or whatever. Just brazenly dishonest!

            Kind of reminds me of that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the dude opens up the box and his face melts off. Except, if that was Dutch, he would have still been in the movie for another 45 minutes.

          • Mike Calabrese

            Dutch remember saying this before the game:

            (Funny how has changed to fit your weak argument.)

            Dutch • 2 days ago

            Pretty good test for the young guys throughout the roster. Excellent game for Lane, Wolff should have his hands full helping out on Williams and Jackson, and shoring up against Martin. This isn’t a give me game for the Eagles. Tampa Bay is strongest where the Eagles are most suspect, Linebacker and Corner, against a quality rusher in Martin, and outside receivers Jackson and Williams.

            Tampa has the 8th rated run defense, better than Kansas City, and Revis and Goldson come with their own pedigree of success. The outcome of the game could rest in the hands of Rookie Tight End Ertz for the Eagles.

            First team to 14 points should secure this game.

          • Dutch

            The very points of the game the Eagles exploited were Revis and Goldson, and Shady up and over McCoy. This doesn’t change what we saw from Tampa Bay yesterday, Goldson was fooled by look offs from Foles leaving the middle as DJax was crossing, a deadly mistake that benefited the Eagles twice. You don’t expect that from a Pro Bowl Safety, never leave DJax one on one crossing deep. That’s a no lose situation for the Eagles every time.

          • Token

            Glennon impressive against our D, Foles not impressive against their D.

            Bizarre fantasy land you live in.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            For the “Vick” folks there is no debate. We have a starter. The “Foles” folk are the ones who seem incapable of accepting that fact.

            “…this is just the Vick folks moving the goalposts”

            Have you read this thread? The only ones moving the goalposts are Foles Fanboys.

          • Token

            You still cant explain away Vicks performance this year and last. You want to make believe his career up to this point didnt matter. Well now hes not very good again and im still waiting on what the excuse is. Seems like you are just sticking with “he is good”.

            I guess I have higher expectations for a NFL QB than 46% completion rate. 1-3. Injured.

          • JofreyRice

            Fair enough, there is some goalpost movement from the Foles folks. Both sides of this are just as likely to commit fallacies because they feel passionate about their guy.

            Trying to frame Tampa Bay as one of the worst defenses in the league, in an effort to downplay Foles performance, is absolutely moving the goalposts.

          • defroe81

            na vick supporters are fan boys and make up every excuse in the world for him like your self… im down to see more vick or foles either vick proves me wrong or foles proves he is good and yall keep complaining either way eagles win.

          • Dutch

            The NFL has them 20th against the pass and 16th against the Run.

          • Vick Must Go

            Really, Grand Ma is better than Brees and Brady? Because both of them had trouble with this D. Is there somewhere we can recruit Grand Ma Dutch?

            Your subjectivity is NOT supported by the facts at all.

          • Vick Must Go

            Brees didn’t get it done against Tampa. Brady didn’t get it done against Tampa. Foles had a much better game than both of those QBs. So you are saying Grand Ma Dutch is better than Brady/Brees? Can we recruit her somewhere?

            Those in the Vick camp have absolutely no stats that will support them. NO passing stats. NONE. That is why they are talking about their grandma.

            Bring up any stat from the last 2 seasons. Shoot, 3 seasons that will support you.

          • Dutch

            No, the 6’6 kid made a few throws, but running this offense is not something he’s good at and flatly there is no way that Chip can consider Foles as the idea candidate to make his option offense premium. Especially considering the level of competition Foles has faced thus far this young season.

          • aub32

            HAHAHAHA talk about using the stats you want. I never even said Foles didn’t play well. The point was that Vick faced vanilla defenses. Foles faced the exact same vanilla defenses and did not look as good as Vick. How does pointing out his stats mean anything. That’s like me playing a one on one game and pointing out I made 7 points and looked good, while ignoring the fact my opponent scored 11 and won the game. HAHAHAHAHA Yet you will call me biased.

          • Andy124

            Had this conversation with BBaaS in the preseason when she complained how big a deal we were making out of training camp practiced and how we were acting like those were so important.

            My response was that they were important because that’s the only data we had to work with. When we had preseason games to evaluate, they would be what we cared about. Then if we got regular season performances to evaluate, all that other stuff would fly out the window. That’s exactly what’s happening.

            I’m sure you’ll agree that preseason football is pretty meaningless. I’m sure you’ve made the point yourself I think. So yeah, Vick won the quarterback competition fair and square, and the Foles camp conceded the point.. Not only were they preseason snaps, the sample size was microscopic. 15 pass attempts?

            We now have much better data to evaluate. It’s both more meaningful and more plentiful.

            Foles and Vick both played the Giants. Foles was demonstrably better in that game. Not debatable.

            Foles and Vick both played 1 very good defense. Vick was awful against KC. Foles was fantastic against TB.

            As I said earlier, logistically, you hold off naming Foles the starter until after the Dallas game so you can get even more data. Hell, see if you can milk it through the Giants game.

            But here, in the regular season, where the games count, with the sample size we have to work with, Foles is winning the quarterback competition fair and square. It’s only fair that the Vick camp concede the point.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            “were making out of training camp practiced”

            No I said why are you making a big deal about running around in shorts. Not when pads were on, when it mattered. Anyone can look good in shorts.

          • Dutch

            In shorts with no defenders going against his receiver. i.e Playing Catch in Fairmount Park

          • aub32

            We agree and disagree on some points. First off the Foles camp never let go that Vick won the competition. Many dismiss it and still ignore it to this day. Look at the comment I was responding to if you need proof of that.
            ….
            You are right in that Regular season > Preseason > Practice.
            ….
            Foles was not so much better than Vick against the Giants. Foles had a better passing day. I won’t argue that, but you can’t throw out Vick’s 79 yards on the ground. Those still count and fall into the realm of “taking what the defense gives you”. Also Foles had much shorter fields against a demoralized Giants D that watched their QB turn ver the ball 3 times. If you can’t acknowledge that starting drives inside the opponents 40 and 30 isn’t going to increase your chances of scoring, then I need not to debate with you any further on the QB topic.
            ….
            Foles looked really good against TB. I really wish they would have shown more man coverage to see how Foles adjusted. However, Foles can only play the D across from him and he looked good. At the same time Vick struggled against the Chiefs (who are better than TB but they are both good). Vick looked like 2012 Vick, and I was worried he’d continue that play. He did not. He wasn’t as bad as people try and make him seem against the Broncos and he was doing his thing against the Giants (even if it was more on the ground)
            ….
            My conclusion is I stick with Vick. That’s just how I see it based on these few things.

            1) Shady will get his yards even if Gabbert was the QB, but Vick takes this running game from good to awesome.

            2) RZ. The biggest difference in the RZ between Vick and Foles in the RZ to me is the receivers made plays for Foles. That Celeck catch was far more difficult than the one Casey dropped. Running is going to be just as effective with either guy in the RZ, maybe moreso with Vick but that’s offset by Foles ability to be a little better with the fade.
            ….
            3) Short game. Foles gets the nod here partly due to accuracy, partly due to play calling and partly due to willingness throw short. That last one is not a knock. It’s big and I give Foles credit for knowing what he can’t do at times.

            4) Intermediate game. I think I give this to Vick. Foles didn’t seem to do much here. He either took the short completion or threw a bomb. His one intermedite throw that stands out was nearly picked. He lacks that zip to fit the ball into tight windows and though he’s improving, his anticiption isn’t so good that he’s hitting these witout being a hair late and setting receivers up.
            ….
            5) Deep. Of course Vick takes this. Foles has improved, but let’s be real. His throw to Cooper was late and he just doesn’t have the talent that Vick has here. He is good enough here that it wouldn’t be something our offense couldn’t do. He can do it. Vick is just a freak.
            ….
            6) Leadership I think we both agree it goes to Vick as long as he’s on this teams. It’s unfair but Foles can’t get from under Vick’s shadow.

            7) Potential: Foles has the potential to be a better QB. Vick has the potential to have a better game. This is where I personally think the debate comes down to. If you see Foles as the future, then by all means start him. However, if the intent is to get a QB early in the draft then go with Vick. Vick and Foles can both win games, in different fashions, but Vick has the ability to become unstoppable. This gives us a chance to win games we shouldn’t. I have no doubt Foles can beat TB, MN, DAL. With the talent we have, I think only Vick gives us a chance to beat GB, SF, NO. Of course he isn’t consistently putting on those performances. However, unlike last year he’s playing well enough in games to win even when he’s not looking like the greatest weapon in football of all time.

          • Vick Must Go

            Vick being a good RB does not take away from the fact that he was 5/14 in passing and Foles threw for double the yardage in NY. And saying that the receivers make plays for Foles and not Vick is misleading. Foles puts those receivers in position to make plays

          • aub32

            So Casey and Celeck dropping TD passes is not Vick putting them in a position to make a play? QBs can put receivers in position all day, but if they don’t catch it that’s not on the QB. I would say the same thing for Foles. However, I doubt you are objective enough to see it that way.

          • Vick Must Go

            Vick 54% completion percentage. Foles 69%. Let’s be “objective” How many drops to the Eagles have this year? If you add all those up for Vick, do you equal 69%?

            Didn’t think so. Be “objective” AUB.

          • Vick Must Go

            Mike Vick has 53.8% completions, 71/132. In order to match Nick Foles completion percentage of 67%, there would have had to have been 18 drops this year.

            Have there been 18 drops?

            Objective data. Give me your subjective response.

          • defroe81

            thats what im saying why are we focusing on how many rushing yards a qb has when passing is what primarily a qb is in the game for…

          • defroe81

            maybe the balls are more catchable when thrown by foles? so you’re saying they are dropping balls for vick on purpose and catching them for foles on purporse? i mean the team itself says vick is the starter so why would they purposely do that to him?

          • Dutch

            If all you have to hold on to is the myth of the Tampa Bay defense as a show of a quality NFL Defense, your delusion will soon be crashing to earth. Nothing about that defense yesterday resembled a solid good defense.

            I kept waiting or them to show up and they never did yesterday. Also, all the myths about Foles Football IQ, and quick release and him defeating NFL Blitz packages was laid to rest.

            He played the part perfectly of a frozen deer in the headlights every time Tampa Blitzed and gave himself up. He was paranoid. He was good hitting 3 and 4 yard passes until Tampa Blitzed.

          • JofreyRice

            Yikes, man, reading this post sounds like you were waiting there hoping TB would rally on D. You are an Eagles fan, right?

            I’m far from saying Foles should be named the starter, but “a deer in the headlights” and 3 & 4 yard passes? Come on. That’s just inaccurate. The guy threw for 3 TDs against the #6 stingiest defense in the league.

          • Dutch

            Where is there evidence Tampa Bay is the #6 stingiest defense? Tampa is 16th against the rush and 20th against the pass.

            In the latter stages of the game, frankly I was waiting on Vince Jackson to cut loose on the Eagles and pull out Tampa’s first victory of the season. Gannon continued to get better as the game went on, it’s a good thing he loss Mike Williams to injury.

          • JofreyRice

            Stingy, meaning they don’t allow points. Here it is:

            http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm

            Overall yardage numbers are relevant, but at the end of the day, it’s what’s on the scoreboard that counts, which is why people rank it that way. Jim Johnson espoused that philosophy.

            Particularly, Tampa Bay had been REALLY good in the redzone. I understand that you’re disappointed the Eagles won with Foles playing QB, but that doesn’t change the reality of what Tampa Bay has done so far this season to limit good offenses.

          • Dutch

            Have you taken time to dig into those numbers, and find out the avg pts of those teams? I’m pretty sure you didn’t . Tampa caught a couple offenses early in the season that weren’t running efficiently and managed to stay close before ultimately folding. Thus their 16 ranking vs the run, and 20th ranking vs the pass on defense.

          • JofreyRice

            Dude, you will shamelessly bend this argument until it fits your warped version of reality. New Orleans is a juggernaut offense. Tom Brady is Tom Brady. They picked off Palmer twice, and held Fitzgerald under 100 yards. “Gannon” got picked off twice in the fourth quarter to giftwrap that win for the Cardinals.

            I don’t know what to tell you. Keep on throwing stuff at the TV if the Eagles win with Foles at QB. Enjoy.

          • Dutch

            New Orleans nor has New England in this young season been the most efficient offense as they are accustomed to proving themselves year in and year out. That’s a dead end argument and doesn’t fit a contrived narrative as you’re desperately trying build right now. You’re even trying to paint the Cardinals as some juggernaut and that’s also a pointless argument.

            As I said, as demonstrated Tampa Bay caught offenses who aren’t efficient at this point in the season. That’s how their mythical reputation as a solid defense was constructed.

            New England is avg 20.8 pts a game, Against Tampa Bay they scored 23, so it is overly exaggerated to suggest Tampa Bay held the Patriots beneath their scoring average.

          • JofreyRice

            New Orleans is still the #6 ranked scoring offense in the LEAGUE, even after being held to under 20 by TB.

            You said yourself that TB would be a good test for Foles. Now that he’s passed, you want to change the parameters of the test. Baloney!

          • Dutch

            You’re Yeasting your boy Foles to no avail. He played a sound game as would any backup QB against similar talent in the NFL. Foles has proven to be a good back up to spring on teams who have little time to prepare for him.

            It was evident that Tampa Bay needs on defense a ton of preparation time to compete which should not be surprising being two of their playmakers on defense are in their first year in their system.

          • JofreyRice

            So after being a top 5 defense for 5 games, all of a sudden, their playmakers forgot how to play in the system? Come on now. Foles capitalized on what opportunities he had. That doesn’t make TB bad.

            I’m really not yeasting anyone. I’m observing what happened, rather than trying to bend it to fit my preference. Like your choice of words, you prefer your own personal inventions to reality. Foles played well, against a good defense that made a few mistakes–as any defense does.

            How much time do they need to prepare anyway? According to you, Foles is a 3 and 4 yard dinker and dunker, deer in the headlights QB that hasn’t won at any level and was buoyed up to being a starter in the Pac 12 by his receivers (none of whom are doing anything in the NFL, by the way)? You’re not even consistent within your own argument.

          • Dutch

            You’ll have to clearly show me their top 5 ranking I’m deaf to that argument at this point. He did well connecting on 3 and 4 yard tosses yesterday more surprising was the 47 yard floater to Cooper and the all he could muster 36 yard heave to DJax. Remarkable throws against busted coverage in that our man could get the ball or noone else. Exceptional.

            One play signifies Tampa Bay’s defensive talent and athleticism, Coopers catch and 44 yard sprint.

          • JofreyRice

            I’ve shown you the rankings. Besides actually coming to your computer and loading up the page and pointing at relevant parts of the monitor, I don’t know what else to do. I could make you some kind of powerpoint about how to look up reference information, but it’s gonna take some time.

          • Andy124

            Why are you wasting your time with that guy?

          • JofreyRice

            He can be pretty funny.

          • Mike Calabrese

            Hey Dutch I just thought you might like to see your comments before the Tampa Game about Tampa having a good defense, You had some serious compliments to pay to them and now all of a sudden to fit your argument that is all null and void.

            Your direct quote: Dutch • 3 days ago

            Those people that haven’t accepted Foles for what he has shown in 2012 are in flat out denial and wishing upon a star.

            It’s amazing to me that there can still be claims with regard to not knowing that Foles has to offer. We know perfectly well what this kid has to offer. We seen it first hand and it wasn’t pretty. If the Eagles score more than 10 points Sunday that will have been a major accomplishment against this Tampa Bay defense and don’t expect much going against that back end defense.

            Be satisfied if Foles comes away with less than 2 interceptions and a fumble.

          • Dutch

            I was completely wrong after seeing Tampa Bay yesterday. Most of the mistakes on defense just in defending DJax was indicative of a winless team.

          • defroe81

            you are just a hater posing as an eagles fan. turn in whatever merchandise you may posses that even remotely resembles anything green and stop posting on this site you sir are a poser rooting against the eagles.

          • Dutch

            No, I’m a long time eagles fan who has learned to expect much more than they are delivering. Being mediocre has never been a starting point with me and, the idea that Foles is the future of the Phila Eagles is a fantasy for those of you seeking mediocre results.

          • defroe81

            such as the results we have gotten oh i dunno the pat two years with vick. when seven games is enough for you to know foles cant be the future i know you have no idea what your talking about. how bad was troy aikmans record his rookie year and how many superbowls did he win? uh yeah based on you they should have gave up on troy aikman the first six games of his rookie season…

          • Vick Must Go

            Are you seriously trying to compare preseason stats here? PRESEASON? We have real stats against real defenses now. Why on earth are you on the preseason?

            Oh, that’s right. Because Foles has outplayed Vick in every sense of the game in the regular season… so you can’t use those stats.

          • aub32

            If you could see past your hatred of Vick for 2 seconds you would notice I didn’t bring up preseason. One of your cohorts did that, but you came at me because you have absolutely no objectivity.

          • Vick Must Go

            Objective: Foles higher completion percentage than Vick
            Objective: Foles higher QBR than Vick
            Objective: Foles higher rating than Vick
            Objective: Foles more TD passes than Vick
            Objective: Foles fewer turnovers than Vick
            Objective: Foles fewer sacks per game than Vick

            Subjective: Vick is better than Foles. <-Makes no sense.

          • Vick Must Go

            Objective: Foles higher completion percentage than Vick
            Objective: Foles higher QBR than Vick
            Objective: Foles higher rating than Vick
            Objective: Foles more TD passes than Vick
            Objective: Foles fewer turnovers than Vick
            Objective: Foles fewer sacks per game than Vick
            Objective: Foles has as many wins in fewer games than Vick

            Subjective: Vick is better than Foles. <-Makes no sense.

          • Vick Must Go

            Actually, Big Butt brought up the preseason. I think she is one of your cohorts, because she most certainly isn’t one of mine.

          • defroe81

            PRESEASON IS THERE TO WORK OUT THE KINKS TURNOVER THE BALL GET IT OUT OF THE SYSTEM. REGULAR SEASON HE DOESNT HAVE TURNOVERS SO…

          • Dutch

            He should not have against the Giants and Tampa Bay.

          • Dutch

            Which of the preseason defense Foles faced was mildly complexed? Where you paying attention to Foles yesterday when Tampa Blitzed?

            He practically gave himself up with every blitz in the 2nd half. He broke out in a full and unmitigated surrender.

          • Wilbert31

            None of the preseason defenses for either QB were complex. That’s my point. Vick was marvelous against them. He has been decent in the regular season as well – between the 20’s and not against KC (a D on the level of Tampa Bay – which Foles shredded to the tune of 133 QBR, 4TD (1 by running), 0 INT, and a game clinching FG). Zero Red Zone Failures. Zero turnovers.

          • Wilbert31

            And he threw the ball more than 10 yards downfield, for 2 TDs. I suppose that’s why you’ve dropped that rhetoric.

          • Dutch

            Part of your argument was the vanilla defenses Vick played against in Preseason that allowed him to look good, well that same holds true for Foles, right?

            Foles played well against the 16th of 32 defenses. Nothing to marvel about. You could clearly see why Tampa Bay was winless based on their defense. Shady did as expected against the 16th rated rushing defense, and Foles was steady against the 20th rated pass defense. In my opinion Foles best plays were throwing the ball away and not trying to force anything on Revis and Goldson.

          • Wilbert31

            Yeah, his throwaways were way better than his TDs.
            And their D is definitely their liability – not their awful O with a rookie QB in his second start. Amazing!

          • Dutch

            the scientific measurements of their defense speaks to how solid or lethargic the Tampa Bay Defense is and, their contribution to the Bucs being winless this season. They played worse than the middle of the pack defense they are.

            They aren’t alone, the Giants plays equally as bad and uninspired.

          • Adam

            The scientific measurements showed that the Bucs were a top 10 D before they played the Eagles.

            You keep spitting out their measurements of AFTER the Eagles game. That’s ridiculous.

          • Dutch

            It’s an accurate assessment of what you saw out of the Tampa Defense yesterday, so how is that ridiculous? Like I told the other guy, Tampa caught a couple teams not being efficient in their offense but they are in no way some stellar defensive machine. There’s no way anybody could come away after the first quarter with any other evaluation of Tampa’s defense.

            It was impossible for a solid back up like Foles is to not have success facing a rice paper thin defense.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Well everyone is giving defensive measurements…after the fact of the defenses we faced earlier in the year.

          • Vick Must Go

            Base defense in preseason. I would take a regular season stud over a preseason hero every day of the week.

          • Dutch

            I would take a regular season stud also, but where this late in the season should we look towards one with the talent?

          • Vick Must Go

            Now. Let’s look towards the one with talent now. The one with the better completion percent, higher rating, higher QBR, more TD passes, less turn overs, fewer sacks per game, higher winning percentage… let’s pick that guy!

          • Vick Must Go

            I think we should look towards the one with talent now. The one with the best completion percentage, QBR, rating, most TDs, fewest turnovers, smallest sack rate, and win rate should be the starter.

            That would make Foles the starter.

            I beg of anyone at all from the Vick camp to use any kind of passing stats to support Vick over Foles from the last 2 seasons. Please, anyone… people out there are mentioning subjectivity, racism, etc of the Foles supporters. So be objective. I would like you to give me any passing stats at all the last 2 seasons to support Vick over Foles. You can even throw in win record from the last 2 seasons. Anyone?

          • Token

            McCoy obviously gets his regardless. You cant put McCoy in a argument about Michael Vick. That just shows desperation.

          • Vick Must Go

            We were a middling offense in regards to scoring points. I forget the stats, but I believe we were the 2nd overall in yards and the 12th in points. So that makes this team very average in regards to scoring points… so yes, we weren’t scoring points. Check your stats.

          • Dutch

            That’s an argument better saved for Foles when he scores against a team that’s actually won a game this season.

          • Vick Must Go

            Your response doesn’t even make sense in regards to my post. Fact, the Eagles were number 2 in the league in scoring with Vick in. Fact, they were #12 in scoring. This isn’t opinion, this is fact.

          • Vick Must Go

            Wins are irrelevant. If the D has given up 18 pts total in 6 games but their O has scored 0 points, is it still not a stout D? What was Vick doing against a Giants team without a win this year? 5/14 for 104 and no TD.

          • aub32

            Are there 12 teams in the NFL now? Do you remember last year. Last year we couldn’t score. Being in the top 3rd of the league is not failing to score. My facts aren’t off. You just hate Vick and will try to skew everything against him.

          • #7

            There it is

          • Dutch

            That’s not skewing, that’s outright good old fashion LYING!

          • Vick Must Go

            You are seriously crazy AUB. There are 32 teams. That means teams #16/17 would be exactly middle. #12 is alot closer to middle than top. By the way, are there 36 teams in the league now? Hmm… guess not… only 32. That means the #12 team is actually in the middle 1/3 of the league… not the top third.

            Get a calculator out moron.

          • Vick Must Go

            Recheck your math AUB. A 2nd grader could do better. 32 teams in the league puts the top 10 (or round to 11 if you choose) in the top 1/3. 12 puts you square in the “middling” category that I stated above.

            If you argue that 12 is close to top 1/3, then I would argue that 12 is also very close to 16, which is exactly middling.

          • Dutch

            Did you go to sleep before the games were complete, What is the Eagles scoring average? Or was that comment made before your brain caught up with you clicking post? The Eagles are 3-3 and not 5-1 simply because of their defense. It is not that the offense is a drag.

          • Token

            16 points against KC. 20 against Denver. Gotta score points in this league. You can have all the yards you want, ill take points. One guy is scoring points. The other guy had 1 TD in 3 games.

          • Dutch

            Your guy is scoring points, which he’s to be commended for doing, however, hold off on the celebration until he actually scores points or drives for a touchdown against a team who has won a game this season.

          • Token

            “my guy” is anyone not named Vick playing QB for this team. Ive seen more than enough to know what Vick brings to the table.

          • Dutch

            Well I am not obviously talking about Vick, so your guy, like I said has not actually beaten any team with a win or winning record this season or last. And that just isn’t something deserving of a celebration.

          • Token

            You missed the point.

            But feel free to post numbers to back up your argument that Vick is a good choice at QB for this team, or any other team. Id like someone to make a sound counter argument. But the only one I keep hearing is basically, hes my idol and his name is Michael Vick so he should start.

          • Dutch

            The Eagles are avg @ 24 points a game, and better than 400 yds of offense, it’s not because of a stagnant offense the Eagles are 3-3, it’s because of their last place defense they’re not 5-1

          • Mike Calabrese

            This is not me saying Foles is better or even knocking Vick. To say Foles did what a backup is suppose to do when he threw for basically 300 yards 3TD’s and 1 rushing TD for a total of 4TD’s on the day. That is more than a backup is suppose to do.
            People can say oh against Tampa but the fact is that is a very talented and good defense. They held the Saints to 16pts and have not allowed a team to go over 20 pts except Patriots got 23pt, They are very legit defensively. That was not a backup doing what a backup does. That performance was an excellent day by any QB in the league. Let’s not downplay his performance.
            I am not saying Vick should be benched just to be clear. I think Vick needs to rest hamstring next week bc he relies on his legs and if he is 75% as a runner I think he needs to rest to get fully healthy. We are in good hands with Foles and no point in letting the hamstring get aggravated or linger. The offense will move the ball either way.

          • pjcostello

            Indeed? Tell that to TJ Yates. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Or Thad Lewis. Or Matt Flynn. And on and on… backups are backups for a reason, generally speaking. I don’t know where you get the cute notion that the Eagles’ punts under Foles would be FGs under Vick — strawman. In six quarters the offense has 6 TDs and 2 FGs. Those are fine, fine numbers no matter how you slice them.

          • Dutch

            Foles did well but running this offense is not something he’s good at doing. That was painfully obvious yesterday. Foles is not Kelly’s QB for this offense. That’s not to say he played a good game against a winless Train Wreck of a Team, but nothing more. It’s not in the Eagles best interest to have a weak armed QB who has no mobility playing the role of an option QB. That is a disaster.

          • Mike Calabrese

            You literally just described Kelly’s 4th round draft pick in his 1st year coaching. Wierd kelly would choose a guy like that if his offense according to you requires a mobil option QB. The fact he choose Barkley when we had a ton of holes in his first draft discredits your argument that Foles can’t run Kelly’s offense. Say anything you want but the knock on Barkley before injury was his arm strength. He has never been known as a mobile QB so your logic is flawed. The kid he picked in his 1st ever NFL draft is a spitting image of what you described in this statement. (It’s not in the Eagles best interest to have a weak armed QB who has no mobility playing the role of an option QB. That is a disaster.)

            Also another one of your consistent theme’s in other posts, is he did it against a win less Buc’s team. While they are not win less bc of there defense. That defense held Drew Brees to 16 points. Patriots had 23 points and they were only team above 20 pts that played Bucs this season. Brady threw for 225yrds with 2 td’s and 1 int. So please stop acting like the Bucs defense is bad. That is just simply not true.

            One more time. Here is your statement.

            “It’s not in the Eagles best interest to have a weak armed QB who has no mobility playing the role of an option QB. That is a disaster.”

            Please explain to us all oh wise one! What about yesterday’s offense was a disaster?

            Why would Kelly draft Barkley if he requires mobility for success?

            Let’s look at your first two lines also:

            “Foles did well but running this offense is not something he’s good at doing. That was painfully obvious yesterday.”

            -Really? Do not try to spin it and say that was not Kelly’s offense and it was just the game plan for Foles. Cause if Kelly played his QB (guy he drafted), Barkley my guess is the game plan would be similar to that versus what he designs when Vick is in.

          • Dutch

            The fact Kelly chose Barkley with a valuable 4th round selection, that required trading away additional picks in the latter rounds is indication enough that he saw nothing in Foles as a candidate to run his option going forward.

            Not with all the obvious holes on that defense that requires talent and additional bodies to fill. You just don’t pick a QB that has no chance to succeed when you have what you believe is a legitimate at back up who is expected to move into the starting role in another year.

            That’s not effective use of the draft talent.

          • Mike Calabrese

            You avoided my point well as usual.

            You said once again:

            It’s not in the Eagles best interest to have a weak armed QB who has no mobility playing the role of an option QB. That is a disaster.

            My point:
            Barkley is exactly that. A weak armed QB with no mobility. You yourself said that is a disaster. See how that means that maybe your thought of what this offense is under Kelly is not correct. Cause it appears Kelly can call a successful offense with either type of QB.

            Your logic that yesterday we saw this offense under Foles is a disaster is completely a joke. If 300yards passing and 3 passing td’s with a rushing td as well is a disaster then sign up most NFL fan bases for that.

            Wow you really only read a sentence or two and pick out an argument even if it has nothing to do with entire premise of comment. I am not spending anymore time trying to rationalize with the irrational.

          • Dutch

            You’re obviously ignoring the deficiencies in that Tampa Bay defense that has a direct correlation to their team being Winless this season. Thus your point was pointless.

            I believe as Kelly seems to believe, at the NFL Level option teams need two Option Quarterbacks to be effective in the event of some contingency. The Eagles offense is not best suited for the game they played yesterday against quality defenders. Using Foles takes away more from the Eagles offense then he contributes and that was clear yesterday. Against a real top defense the Eagles may have loss simply because of the lack of contributions from the other phases of the team.

          • Vick Must Go

            What??? We punt more with Foles? Are you nuts? He hung 31 on this team and 20 last week vs. the giants. How many scoring drives do you need in order to say he doesn’t punt more?

          • Bdawk20

            So you would rather win the yards trophy than the points scored trophy?? Vick DOES NOT run this offense efficiently because he doesn’t get us in the EZ. Vick’s running and McCoy’s running gives us the yardage totals, but Foles performance has given us what we need more than yards: points. Vick against the terrible Giants D is all you need to know about how Vick runs this offense.

          • aub32

            Vick had 30+ against the Skins. He had 30 against the Chargers with TDs dropped, FGs missed, and penalties taking points off the board. He was on pace to put up 30+ against NY. Points aren’t all on the QB. Foles didn’t have receivers dropping passes in the EZ. He didn’t have Henery missing FGs. Like I said you are being ridiculous.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Not to pick nits, but the reason the offense has over 400 yards every game is because Foles came in at the end of the Denver game and took us on the best drive of the game and then destroyed the same Giants defense that Vick struggled against. An objective observer (like myself) would say “Vick had one incredible half of football against the 27th ranked Washington defense and a good game against the 28th ranked San Diego defense – if you don’t count his 3 red zone trips that resulted in 3 field goals – but then struggled mightily in his 10 subsequent quarters against the 29th ranked Denver defense, the 23rd ranked Giant defense, and the 5th ranked Chiefs defense; conversely, Foles’ last three games his QB rating is 155, 115, and 133.

          • anon

            Haha. Ok i can see you’re just trolling. Foles is the best QB ever, go on with the rest of your day.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            The logic fallacies are killing me.

            I’ve learned that…

            – Dropped passes in the endzone don’t count toward RZ efficiency
            – Having the #2 ranked offense doesn’t mean you can move the ball well
            – Setting up a 1 yd TD run means you had no hand in the score
            – 1.5 games is enough to crown a new starter
            – RZ penalties don’t matter either
            – And you get to subtract good games to make the bad games look worse.

            Okay.

          • aub32

            The funny part is that there is enough facts to make this a worthy debate without manipulating the numbers or omitting obvious facts. Some of the “I want Vick gone” crowd would sound much more credible if they just chose to go off the actual performances instead of convincing themselves that anything Vick does well doesn’t count.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Agreed.

            While I don’t agree you pull a starter ’cause the backup had one good game. If you want to make a argument for that, you can do so without making things up or manipulating information to make the other guy look worse.

          • morgan c

            Foles has played two good games. He played the majority of the game in New York – can we admit that that counts as a game? So he’s 2-0. Vick is 1-3. Foles has won more games than Vick in half the games. No manipulation. Even if we count one good game, that’s almost with Vick’s 1.5 good games in over twice as many starts (SD and one half at Wash).

          • anon

            (he did start with the lead in the giants game).

          • Vick Must Go

            Manipulating info? Pull up their two stats

            Completion percentage 67% Foles to 54% Vick
            Passing TD: 6 in only 6 quarters of work compared to 5 in 14 quarters for Vick
            Interceptions: Vick 2, Foles 0
            Sacks: 2 for Foles and 14 for Vick.
            QBR: 127 for Foles, 90 for Vick

          • Justin

            Then let’s let the backup play another game and see if he performs well again?

          • Justin

            Here’s the thing bothering me: We know Vick isn’t going to be here for years to come, and therefore not the future. So why not see what we have in Foles now, in Year 1 of Chip Kelly? Why such adamant resistance?

          • Adam

            For some people it just seems like their love for Vick overwhelms everything else. They resist the idea of any change, which is clear from some people who say they don’t think Barkley/Foles is the option but they also don’t think we should draft a QB. Some people have convinced themselves earnestly that a 34 year old Vick is a good option next year. It’s mind boggling.

          • anon

            2 sides of the same coin.

          • Adam

            Sorry but I don’t see it that way. I’m not sure how a team that has no legitimate shot of a deep playoff run, with a new coach and new schemes, should not roll the dice with a younger QB who’s been playing as well as a 33 year old gimped QB that isn’t in the long term plans of the team. Vick has 1 win this year. So does Foles. so I’m not buying that “he puts us in a better spot to win” BS anymore.

            People’s idolization of Vick doesn’t let them see the big picture for the Eagles, and he’s not in it. So let’s figure out if Foles is or isn’t.

          • anon

            Much of the ire around Vick is b/c of the poor performance from last year. There are other 30 yr old qbs, playing worse than or at a similar level to Vick who are not on the chopping block / and who are in their respective team’s futures. To my eye there’s no reason we couldnt be in shape to win playoff games. Even if we couldn’t it does a disservice to all players and staff to tank. Those guys work hard and risk injury every day. I’m not saying we are tanking by starting Foles. But there was a competition and thats why Vick is playing.

          • Kev_H

            This is dumb. A “competition” based on what? Practice and less than a half of preseason snaps. And that overrules actual, live, game performance. Tell that to Tom Brady and Drew Bledsoe.

          • Vick Must Go

            Anon, name those 30 year old QBs that aren’t on the chopping block you mention.

            Vick #34 in completion percentage in the NFL. Only Fitzpatrick, Gabbert, and Eli are worse. You can’t argue that Fitz and Gabbert have a great grasp on their starting job. And are you really going to compare Vick to Eli… Eli of 2 superbowl victories? Really?

          • aub32

            I don’t see Foles as the future. It’s not that he isn’t good. I think Kelly will want his own guy. If I am right, which I may not be, then you continue this season with whoever gives you the best chance to win games. Vick has been good in this offense. He lost to 2 undefeated teams. It’s not his fault we lost to SD, though it seems you blame him.

          • Justin

            That doesn’t make sense. If Kelly wanted “his own guy”, why would he go out of his way to win games, thus lowering his draft pick next year? Unless Barkley is the guy he wants.

          • defroe81

            because its not about the eagles long term for them its not about the eagles period. its about their favorite qb being the starter and him doing no wrong ever blaming everyone else they are living in the now hoping the new miracle and the new meadowlands happens every sunday. your point makes sense but guess what vick won the job so vick is the starter case closed…

          • morgan c

            Actual performance. The team is 2-0 with Foles playing most of the game, and 1-3 with Vick.
            Let’s go with the guy who has won the past two games, and who limits turnovers and displays intelligence throwing the ball.
            #FACT

          • Vick Must Go

            Actual performances: 54% completion percentage for Vick.
            Actual performance: 5/14 completion percentage for 100 yards and no TD against the #32 defense in the NFL. The #32 defense in the NFL. The #32 defense in the NFL… the #32 defense in the NFL. Is it sinking in yet?

          • aub32

            You forgot 79 rushing yards and 16 points in under a half, but I’m sure that was an accident. It’s not like you would omit somethingjust to help your argument.

          • defroe81

            qb’s really are meant to throw the football so he rushed for 79 and… leave the rushing to the running back and the passing the the quarter back plenty of teams have won superbowls with that type of crazy radical system since you know quarterbacks are measured for their running abilitites… i bet all the vick supporters are hoping for foles to start and fail so bad. im good with either qb though as long as vick doesnt become the vick of last year… but still say foles is a better passer and um thats what qb’s are really supposed to do.

          • Dutch

            Not option QBs. This is an option offense This kid has accounted for 1500 yard of offense so far this season with his arm and legs. It’s utter absurd to suggest he’s not effective in this offense. Had the Eagles had any defense other than the 30th ranked defense they would be 5-1 and not 3-3.

            the pure point of the matter is age is the primary reason vick may not be starting in Philly next year, but the lack of mobility is the primary reason that Foles won’t be around or starting in Philly next season also.

          • defroe81

            sorry dude i dont care what kind of offense it is as far as i can remember qb’s are for throwing the ball running is just that an option but throwing down field is what qb’s normally and have always been about…

          • Andy124

            I seem to recall, and I don’t think it was you, a member of the Vick camp harping on Foles’s lack of touchdown passes last season, ignoring the fact that Foles set up rushing touchdowns with his passing, eventually leading the team to more ppg than Vick last year.

            I’d say redzone touchdowns count, whether they’re run in or thrown in.

          • Vick Must Go

            Okay, lets keep all the games together good and bad for Vick.

            54% completion pecentage, total for Vick. 34th in the league ahead of only Eli, Gabbert, and Fitzpatrick. Argue that.

            And no, dropped passes don’t count towards RZ efficiency. Are we playing horseshoes or hand grenades here?

          • Vick Must Go

            Anon, not what Broadcasting said here. And all the Vick camp keeps acting like the Foles camp think Foles should be in the hall. None of us have ever said that… but I will say that Foles is better than Vick. Better now, and better for the future.

            Chad Henne is better than Blain Gabbert as well. Do you want to send Henne to the hall? Or can I just make that argument that Henne is better?

          • aub32

            Before I respond, I just want to ask if you are serious or just trying to get a rise out of people on a Monday?

          • defroe81

            he sounds pretty serious and accurate but foles aint got nothing on vick right anon! love the loyalty to vick no matter what to his loyal followers he can do now wrong and foles will never be as good as him… team vick is awesome…

          • Vick Must Go

            One of the best posts on here Broadcasting.

          • Vick Must Go

            Completion percentage of QBs with at least 40 passes this year… Vick ranks #34 in the league. Only people worse are Fitzpatrick, Gabbert, and Eli. Foles ranks #6.

            So yes, Vick can’t run an NFL offense efficiently.

          • aub32

            So you’re saying Eli, who won 2 SB rings can’t run an NFL offense as well. That’s what happens when you cherry pick stats. You start sounding mighty silly.

          • Vick Must Go

            Okay AUB, what stats do you want to cherry pick? Turnovers? Touchdown passes? Quarterback rating? QBR?

            Oh, I know, rushing yards by a QB. I’ll let you cherry pick that one, because Foles blows Vick out of the water in every other category. The cherries on my tree are far more pleantiful than the sickly tree you are picking from.

          • Vick Must Go

            Best retort of any in the Vick camp so far.

            So I’ll let you pick the stats. You mention I’m not “objective.” So use some objective passing stats of your choosing… or even team stats. I don’t care about rushing stats (see Tebow). How about rating this year, Foles vs. Vick. Wins? Redzone percent? Completion %? TDs? Turn overs? Why don’t you throw in Foles rookie numbers just to make you feel good? Even with his rookie numbers, Foles blows Vick out of the water.

            The subjective argument of “Vick gives us the best chance to win” doesn’t even hold up to objective win record. Not counting the Giants game for anyone, Foles is 2-5 since last year. Vick is 4-10 in that same span.

            So give me anything objective. I just peppered you with objective verifiable facts. Give me anything at all objective.

          • Dutch

            And this is the comment that subject Philly’s Football Fans to being lumped in with Soccer Fans across the World.

        • Dutch

          Ha, that’s also selective in that you’ve clearly thrown out the FACT, Vick’s faced two undefeated teams of the 3 teams who are arguably the best in the NFL this season, while Foles hasn’t seen action against one team with one win this season.

          Also, Vick has approx 300 plus rushing yards in 4 games this season, or an average of 75 yard per game, on a team rated 2nd in Offense in the NFL. Some where you’ve managed to find that in those stats teams are containing him and the top rated rushing attack in the NFL.

          Are you beginning to see how bizarre that sounds?

          • Vick Must Go

            Don’t tell me about record of the team. Denver isn’t winning games because of their defense. Tampa isn’t losing games because of the defense. Vick only plays in 50% of the snaps. He should kill the Denver D. He should kill the Giants D. And he did not… at all. In fact, he was terrible in both games against terrible defenses.

          • Dutch

            Denver has the best rush defense in the league. Why would you assume their defense is not a contributor to their undefeated record? Because you’d hope it fits your narrative? Well it doesn’t so you’ll have to find something else to hang your hat, Tampa is 16th against the run and 20th against the pass and winless as a result.

            May I also add, Denver isn’t even playing their best Linebacker and, or Cornerback

            Are you yet taking notice how bizarre you sound in your assumptions?

          • #7

            And now they have Von “Beast” Miller back. They will be even better now. Oh, and Champ Bailey is back too. HOF corner

          • Vick Must Go

            Dutch, again you prove your idiocy. Who care about Denver’s rushing D. Arent’ we talking about QBs here? Oh, right… the QB of choice for you is more of a runningback… your argument makes sense now.

          • Vick Must Go

            You are arguing passing stats because of Denver’s rushing defense? Where is bizarre is your assumption?

      • Ron Swanson

        This is irrelevant. Vick hasn’t played the Cowboys since 2011 not counting the game he got hurt last year. It’s not the same team he’s beaten. Foles had to play them as the back-up coming in cold then with a team that had already quit and was without McCoy or Jackson.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          I won’t argue that. But I am a fan of the known…Dallas hasn’t changed that much that I wouldn’t want to stick with the guy who has put up great games against them in the past.

          • Vick Must Go

            2 years ago!!! By your reasoning, that means Joe Namath is still the best QB in the league. We need to sign him. Dan Marino is a free agent, right? Success YEARS ago means nothing. 2010 means nothing.

      • Broadcasting Wisdom

        Foles’ line at Dallas last year with no Jackson, no McCoy, no coach, no defense, and no O-line: 22-34, 251, 1 TD, 0 INT, 97 QB rating, and repeated led the team back against the Cowboys to take a 27-24 lead in the 4th quarter. D couldn’t hold, but Foles was leading us to the winning score down 31-27 when Bryce Brown again coughs up the football that was returned for a touchdown – game over.

        • theycallmerob

          Facts don’t work with her

        • G_WallyHunter

          Well, that was refreshing, What was that about Foles and Dallas? lolol

        • aub32

          Not to detract from your argument, but Foles is in no way even in that game if not for Bryce Brown. It’s sort of like the Romo performance against Denver. Foles’ job was to just not lose that game by dinking and dunking and handing the ball of to Brown

          • Bdawk20

            That’s the point everyone misses. Foles plays within the rules of the offense which makes the offense run efficiently. Vick does not. Maybe Foles is not as talented as Vick, but he knows how to play within an offense whereas Vick reverts back to what made him successful in high school and college. You want a QB that is going to run the scheme, not the one who breaks scheme when he cannot make the throw because the receiver isn’t “open”.

          • aub32

            True but Foles isn’t Mr. Safe either. He has shown some tendency to fumble and he does that stupidest thing a QB can do which is always try to shuffle the ball out when he’s going down. I hate when QBs do that. Up to this point Vick has yet to “revert” into anything. Running and getting down is the same as Foles throwing a check down. Both QBs are taking what the defense gives tham. They just do it differently.

          • Bdawk20

            It’s situational though, Vick turns to run or makes a bad throw whereas Foles will make the throw if the receiver is what Pat Shurmur calles “NFL open”. Foles has a higher completion % with the same receivers, which ultimately scores points for us. If both QB’s can move us in between the 20’s, but Foles is the one who can score TD’s in the RZ, why the argument?

          • Wilbert31

            Bingo!

          • anon

            Numbers don’t come in a vacuum. Gotta look at the type of D.

          • aub32

            Let’s not act like Vick always makes a bad throw or that running is a bad option when you’re getting nearly 10 yards a pop. That’s a first down nearly every time Vick runs. Foles has a higher completion percentage and will likely always do so, but that’s because he throws a lot more screens and check downs. However, look how Flacco won the SB. He wasn’t Mr. Completion percentage, especially compared to the guys he beat in Manning and Brady. Flacco took shots down field because he has the arm to do so.

      • Nicholas Disilvestro

        well since mike’s been in the league for about 12 years and foles has been in it for 2 i’m going to go out on a limb and say he has more career wins.

      • Vick Must Go

        What’s Vick’s win percentage this year? What is Foles? I’ll wait

        • Dutch

          The Question was, What’s Vick’s record against Dallas, the next Opponent?

          Here is a softball question, How many games have Foles won against teams with more than 1 win, or any team with a winning record in his career?

          • Vick Must Go

            Here’s a softball question… how many games has Vick won this year against teams with a winning record? I don’t care what Vick did in 2007, or 2003, or 2010. I care about now. And if you want to throw in last year, feel free. I’ve previously posted Vick’s stats in 2012 compared to Foles. I won’t post them again, but they were nearly identical.

            So if you want to talk wins, talk about Vick’s wins in the last 2.5 years. Again, I’ll wait.

          • Vick Must Go

            How many wins does Teddy Bridgewater have in the NFL? How many wins did Peyton Manning have in his first 7 games? Dude… he’s started 7 games. Since last year, Vick is 4-10. Since last year, Foles is 2-5. That is the exact same win percentage… a rookie compared to a vet.

            I think I sufficiently knocked that softball out of the park.

            Here is a softball question to you, oh cerebral one.

            Who has a better completion percentage, more TDs, fewer turn overs, better rating, fewer sacks per game in 2013?

            Another one:
            Who had a better 2012? Vick or Foles?
            Record: Vick 3-7, Foles 1-5. Of note, the defense was far far better early in the year when Vick got those victories before Castillo was fired.
            Rating: 78 Vick, 79 Foles
            Completion %: 60 Foles 58 Vick
            Yards per att: 6.4 Foles 6.7 Vick
            Yards per game: 242 Foles 236 Vick
            TD:Int – 6/5 Foles, 12/10 Vick

            So if you are at all objective, you can say that Foles and Vick had a pretty remarkably similar year. Foles, a 3rd round rookie had a similar year to a 10 year vet. ROOKIE vs. 10 year vet.

            How on god’s green earth can you possibly think that starting the younger guy is not the best solution here? If Vick had better stats than Foles I would get your position. But Vick had the same stats as Foles last year and Foles is destroying him this year.

            Don’t quote me wins total vs. Dallas. Who has more wins vs. Dallas, Vick or McNabb? Does that mean we should go get McNabb? NO! The last 2-2.5 years matter. Anything before that is ancient history. If we are still counting stuff from 2010, then I want you to start pulling for McNabb.

    • anon

      Haha you say Foles is way better but you’re argument against not starting Vick is turnovers? Aside from turnovers against the best D in the game he hasn’t had a turnover this season. It’s not like 2012 Vick where he was giving up the ball on the 1 yd line every game.

      • Dutch

        He as will those who support Foles will rely on “Selective Reasoning” to drive their points this week.

        • Marcus

          As will Vick supporters will rely on “historical revisionism” for 2010 to drive their points this week.

          • aub32

            Who has brought up 2010 other than Foles’ supporters who bring it up only to say it never happened. Be real.

          • Dutch

            I told you

          • Dutch

            Celebrate a few receptions against a train wreck of a team with no wins in 5 outings this season. Because this is as good as it’s going to get and has been using Foles under center. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

          • Ron Swanson

            The train wreck of a team lost very close games against some good competition. More so, it’s their offense that is no good. Their defense has been very good, even holding the explosive saints to 16 points. Yet Nick Foles torched them. Not a few receptions against a train wreck, an extremely impressive performance against a solid defense.

      • Ron Swanson

        You fail to address Vick’s helplessness in the red zone. He doesn’t have the accuracy or anticipation to succeed once the field gets tight. The big plays are fun and can win some games, but it’s too inconsistent for sustained success.

        Foles might not be good. Maybe these performances are a mirage. The point is the team needs to find that out. Give the kid his shot and if it he continues to play great, we may have something. If not, our next quarterback is currently playing on Saturdays.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      1-5
      2-3
      5-0
      5-0
      0-6
      0-5

      Those are the records of the teams we played. Yeah…

      • Brent E. Sulecki

        I don’t care if every team we played didn’t have a win. as long as we get that W. ask the giants how tough it is to win. or the falcons or steelers..no W is a gimme.

        • anon

          We are 1 win away from our total last year. We are .500 which is a pretty good record in this division an[d] we are separating ourselves from the Skinks / Giants.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Um…who said I cared? I was pointing out how foolish it is to call for a new starter after one game against an 0-5 team.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Because it was against a top 5 defense that both Drew Brees and Tom Brady struggled against, yet Foles came out and lit them up. Statistically Foles is dominant (would be destroying every other QB in passer rating except Peyton Manning’s historic season, with whom he would be tied at 128). And from the eye test perspective, nobody can deny how smooth and effortless the offense looks with Foles in there. It’s just drop back, relaxed, throw an accurate pass, move the chains.

            His statistics would have been even more eye popping if we had needed him in the 4th quarter and if the line could have protected him better so he didn’t have to throw the ball away 5 or 6 times.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Did you expect us to lose this game?

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Given that Brees needed some heroics and only managed 18 points and that Tom Brady only managed 23 points against them, I thought it was equally possible that we lose this game if Foles was not able to match Brees or Brady’s successes and our defense gave up more than 20 points. Fortunately, Foles exceeded what Brees and Brady did against the Tampa D, so it didn’t matter that our defense again was problematic.

          • Andy124

            You predicted us to put up 17 points. If we had, we’d have lost. Nick blew that expectation out of the water. Again, against an excellent defense. I would say that nearly doubling your expectation is more than “doing what a backup should do”.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I predicted us to put up 17 correct.

            I also predicted Tampa to put up 13.

            So if that were the case we’d have won the game..no?

            Or do only half of my predictions count?

          • Andy124

            Yes set an expectation. Foles blows it out of the water. You characterize that as “just doing what a backup SHOULD do.”

            A backup SHOULD blow away reasonable expectations? A backup SHOULD have by FAR the best performance of the season allowed to any opponent of that D?

            No, that’s exceeding expectations. That’s outstanding. That’s what a good STARTER should do.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            My expectation was that we’d win. I was unaware that the details of that expectation was what was important.

            Funny how you ddidn’t comment on the second half of my statement.

          • Andy124

            Ok, so you were wrong about the other half of your prediction too. Feel better? Two wrongs made a right. Whattaya know?

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            lol.

            But was I wrong about the part where I said we’d win?

            No?

            Okay

          • aub32

            Foles did what a starter should do. We have 2 starting QBs. Both Kelly and DJax has said this. I don’t see why argue this particular point.

          • Andy124

            I don’t see why argue this particular point.
            Simply because BBaaS made such an effort to minimize Foles’s performance as merely what a BACKUP SHOULD do. It was intended to be dickish and it was.

          • Vick Must Go

            Big Butt, you are completely idiodic and should be euthanized for the benefit of the chat. The arguement was Foles/Vick. Last I checked, they both played on offense. So you are going to use how much the D allowed as an arguement against Foles?

            If your brain was as big as your butt… maybe you could comprehend.

          • Andy124

            C’mon man… high road.

          • Ron Swanson

            it’s an 0-5 team with a really good defense. Foles just put up 31 on them.

      • Bdawk20

        How did the Bucs D do against the Saints?

        I’ll wait…

      • theycallmerob

        Best offensive game was against the toughest D save for the chiefs.

      • Token

        1-3, 4-10 last two years. Thats been our record with your man at QB. Whats the difference? Do you like watching a losing team?

        • aub32

          So Foles didn’t go 1-5 last year in addition to losing the Dallas game where he was spotted a 7 point lead.

          • Token

            Yes he did. As a rookie. Without McCoy and Jackson. But yea, its the same thing.

          • anon

            BB was doing pretty well. Aside from TOs i don’t think we were missing McCoy in those games.

          • Token

            Bryce Brown exploded in two games then was dreadful. Hes basically been a 3 ypc guy.

          • anon

            looked good in pre-season. Not sure what his issue is but he’s a good runner. I think it’s hard for any change of pace back to get consistent big yards.

          • aub32

            Why is it that when it comes to Foles, the other players on the field matte, but when it comes to Vick you only see things in a vaccum. My point of bringing up Foles’ record is the fact that losing games isn’t on one player. Thanks for proving my hypothesis with your response.

          • Andy124

            Wins and losses might be the only stat that is less meaningful for qb evaluation than espn’s QBR crap.

          • aub32

            agreed.

          • Token

            Ok I will just disagree that a rookie is not the same as a 10 year vet.

          • aub32

            we are making progress. That’s good.

          • Vick Must Go

            Token was arguing against you, you just didn’t understand it. Sad… he was saying that using Foles Stats as a rookie and comparing them to Vicks stats is ludicrous.

            But just for fun, lets look at Foles and Vicks stats last year:
            Completion percent: 58% Vick, 61% Foles
            QBR: 78 Vick, 79 Foles
            Yards per game: 236 Vick, 242 Foles
            Yards per attempt: 6.7 Vick, 6.4 Foles
            TD/Int: 12/10 Vick, 6/5 Foles

            Wow, the Rookie’s numbers look remarkably similar to the 10 year vet. Do you still want to argue blindly for Vick after seeing these?

          • Adam

            He’s now going to point out his record.

          • Vick Must Go

            His prison record. Ha!

          • Vick Must Go

            Aub, you are really holding Foles Rookie record against him? Why not look more recent? How about we compare Foles rookie stats against Vicks? That would be a good debate… NOT

      • Vick Must Go

        Unless Vick plays D, those records don’t mean anything. Put the defenses rankings there:

        Wash: #26.
        San Diego: #28
        KC: #5
        Denver: #29
        Giants: #23
        TB: #16

        The only good D Vick played was KC. So I’ll give you help. Take Vicks KC numbers out of his yearly stats and tell me what you end up with. Oh, still terrible numbers? Thought so.

    • dislikedisqus

      Great points. Height really matters but also Vick’s open field ability is less effective in the rz because the lb’s and db’s are closer to the LOS.

    • Kev_H

      In hindsight, I hear a lot of fans talking like the Bucs are trash. But I thought this was set up to be a tough game. Yes, the Bucs were winless at 0-4 and they lost games by 1, 2, and 3 points. Coming off of a bye, at home…if I was a neutral person betting, I’d have laid money on the Bucs. Foles tore them apart. Let’s see how they do in the upcoming weeks because they aren’t Giants -106 point differential winless. They are -37 point differential winless, which indicates that they are better than their record and due for a few wins.

    • Dutch

      You do realized that Vick has never while leading the Eagles loss to the Cowboys, right? Where then would the idea develope, “Foles gives us the better chance”…… come from scientifically?

      That’s a figment of your imagination. Let’s not forget Foles has shown himself well against two winless teams as the Eagles embark upon the weakest opponents on their schedule. He was supposed to look go considering both were a combined 0-11.

      • Wayne

        Last time Vick led the Eagles against the Cowboys, he left in the second quarter with a concussion. Foles came in but the defense gave the game up.

        Scientifically, I would base it on Foles’s 133.3 QBR which is higher than Vick’s best game (123.4 vs Chargers). Vick was better once in his tenure as an Eagles starter: he had a 150.3 QBR in the 2010 MNF game against Washington. If you think he is about to return to that level, well, you can keep dreaming.

        Foles led the Eagles to 15 more points than Drew Brees against the Bucs defense. That says a lot more to me than 0-11.

      • Wayne

        Last time Vick led the Eagles against the Cowboys, he left in the second quarter with a concussion. Foles came in but the defense gave the game up.

        Scientifically, I would base it on Foles’s 133.3 QBR which is higher than Vick’s best game (123.4 vs Chargers). Vick was better once in his tenure as an Eagles starter: he had a 150.3 QBR in the 2010 MNF game against Washington. If you think he is about to return to that level, well, you can keep dreaming.

        Foles led the Eagles to 15 more points than Drew Brees against the Bucs defense. That says a lot more to me than 0-11.

    • KobraKai7474

      I am not disagreeing, but the Bucs are a team in disarray. While, yes, they have played solid defense so far this year and, with a few breaks, could be a 500 team or better, they could also be on the verge of giving up on their coach (who is about to be fired). If you watched the Eagles last year, you know what it looks like when a team quits on its coach. A team like that can make anybody look good. Again, I am not disagreeing. I am just pointing out that there is another way to look at yesterday’s outcome.

      • #7

        The Bucs aren’t on the verge of giving up on their coach, they already have.

    • Run Eagles Run

      so nick foles is better than tom brady and drew brees? the pats offense hasnt been as great as it usually is this year. The eagles offense was already one of the best (statistically) without foles. your logic is not sound.

      As for tims red zone numbers, you cant compare vick and foles red zone numbers. its not a fair comparison. I would really like to see how many drops receivers have had in the red zone. I seem to remember quite a few.

      Foles looked impressive against a bad team. I am happy for him and happy the eagles have two capable QBs. WHat Im not happy is the pathetic philidelphia media throwing fuel on the QB controversy fire because their media is dying and they pathetically will do anything for a story line.

  • Brent E. Sulecki

    Im all about chemistry. but if Vick is healthy he has to play. if not you lose the locker room. he needs to fail or get hurt in order for a switch to be made. at the same time guys still wont look to Nick for leadership as long as Mike is there. whatever nick or mike did last year is meaningless.. new system new regime. and both have played well. but Vick hasn’t done anything to lose the job. Foles just have to wait and see. I’m sure the folks in the organization are happy with his progress and how he’s handling things. if he can continue it. he will ultimately see the field sooner or later. this year or next. on to Dallas.

    • Justin

      Vick did get hurt though. That’s why Foles played yesterday, remember?

      • Brent E. Sulecki

        Im aware. I was saying for going forward

        • Justin

          I think we should run with Foles the rest of the year. We aren’t making a Super Bowl run this year and Vick isn’t the future. So let’s check for Foles’s ceiling.

          • theycallmerob

            That pretty much sums up the whole “debate”. But I guess some are convinced Vick can win a super bowl this year if we back into the playoffs?

          • aub32

            You’re better than this Rob. No one and I mean no one has said that we have a chance to win the SB with Vick. All arguments have been we have a chance to make the playoffs and a better chance to win games with Vick. Both guys can win games. We all agree there. Some of us just feel VIck gives us a better chance to win games. That’s the actual “debate”.

          • theycallmerob

            But how can that still be the case is what im saying? No longer true. Foles can and has been winning games. Division still sucks. Need to see what he is. End of story

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            He won ONE game. He was gifted 16 in the other – that would be a joint effort. And once again football isn’t a “let us see” sport. He did what a (good) backup is supposed to do. It’s not too much more complicated than that.

          • theycallmerob

            Hey guess what? Vick won 1 game too.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Your point?

          • theycallmerob

            The most simple and clear point of all that you keep missing- there is no reason for Vick to keep starting this year.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            A point you haven’t backed up with anything other than your opinion.

          • theycallmerob

            Go on. You’ve said little about how Vick this year =better chance of winning. Hard to make up those facts, huh?

          • Token

            She has always said Vicks past doesnt matter, only this year.

            Now that he stinks again this year, theres nowhere else for the argument to go but in circles. Just a waste of time.

          • theycallmerob

            whenever I ask that question I hear crickets

          • aub32

            What’s the question? I will answer.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            That’s Vick stinks and he doesn’t give us the best chance to win this year.

            I think.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Well if your starting point is Vick “stinks” you right I don’t have a response to that.

          • theycallmerob

            Never said that. Reading comprehension. I said there is no reason for him to start.

          • theycallmerob

            Go ahead and put words in my mouth. I never said that. I said he gives us no greater shot at points or W’s. Thus, no reason to play him this year. You’ve been ducking that point all morning.

          • aub32

            Vick stinks? Has he really stunk this year? It’s comments like this that are completely void of objectivity and why this debate goes off the handle and becomes more opinion than fact based.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I said that.

            And Kelly said that. l

            I guess it doesn’t count when Kelly says it either.

          • G_WallyHunter

            I’m no extreme on the Vick/Foles Spectrum, and I do have Vick as my starting fantasy QB, and I still support this… It would be awesome to see Foles under center next week.
            My concern is does Kelly just make the switch and tell Vick that it is something he is trying out? How does Kelly start Foles over a healthy Vick and not bring negativity to the locker room? Hopefully Vick is only at 90% so that there is a good enough excuse to put in Foles. I dono, just really seems like the locker room is 100%$ for Vick, especially after those Shady comments, I think pulling a healthy Vick for Foles might do something to the locker room…

          • Justin

            And what does making the playoffs get us if we aren’t winning the Super Bowl?

          • anon

            You’ll never make a shot if you don’t shoot the ball. Think about the Ravens / Giants. They were terrible during the regular season. Sneaked into the playoffs and went on a run. At the very least it validates CK, it’s a nice reward for players that work their a** off all season and it might even make some FAs want to come here for something other than the money.

          • Justin

            I mean, I like Vick. I think he’s a dynamic playmaker but I see no reason to keep running with him at this point.

          • theycallmerob

            Like you’re reading my mind.

          • BlindChow

            I see no reason to keep passing with him at this point. His running has been fine!

          • Brent E. Sulecki

            I would agree with that. but I don’t want to lose the locker room either

    • Loke1988

      You only loose the ignorant ones like McCoy. Most of the team sees it clearly. The ignorant one’s will have no choice but to get on board. Vick is no Wally Pip.

      • Brent E. Sulecki

        shame of it is. the ignorant ones may be our best players. kind of need them somewhat all in..

        • nicksaenz1

          As long as they are producing enough to keep them earning whatever bonuses they have to earn they’ll be fine with whatever happens.

        • Loke1988

          I totally agree. Honestly it makes it hard to pull for the likes of Jackson and McCoy. People will assume I’m racist but the fact is I just don’t like punks that act all ghetto especially after they have been exposed to higher education.

    • G_WallyHunter

      Precisely my thinking, you lose the locker room, I hope vick is only say 80% so that the decision is easier. Good post, agreed, let’s hope CK makes the right decision based on what vibes he’s getting from locker room. Like @Loke1988:disqus just said, maybe it’s mainly the ignorant ones who “grew up watching him light it up in Atlanta” like McCoy and Djax lol

    • Andy124

      but if Vick is healthy he has to play. if not you lose the locker room.
      I talked to some of the players in the locker room and most of them said “I’m not touching that one.” One player did say that, “When you see that way the offense operated today, that should speak for itself.” ~Derrick Gunn

      Honestly, I think there’s really only one reasonable path to take here. You start Foles next week. You say that you’re being cautious with Vick’s hammy. Doesn’t matter if the second part is true or not. That’s what you say. Reevaluate after the Dallas game.

      Also, you play games with the injury report, trying to make it look like Vick might start the Dallas game.

  • dislikedisqus

    What do Vick’s stats look like if you subtract the first half against WAS? My impression is that he’s been in fairly rapid decline since then.

    • anon

      Great against SD, poor against KC, ok against Denver, good against Giants. I think the RZ stats are skewed b/c (a) sometimes we ran the ball in, (b) we had a lot of RZ penalties/drops in the SD / KC game.

      That said I really don’t want to wade into this Vick / Foles debate. Im fine with either. We’ve wasted thousands of comments on this debate and it doesn’t help us support our team, understand film, or do anything else productive. We don’t even spend time breaking down what Foles did well, what the defense is doing better etc. Just generating page views.

      • Brent E. Sulecki

        now how does redzone percentages go. if your 2 for 3 does that mean you scored tds on 2 out of 3. because yesterday on the milking the clock drive. they very much settled for a fg there. which had we been aggressive possibly could have a perfect redzone game yesterday.

        • anon

          Prob fair statement. I’ll also add that its great seeing Foles throw a deep ball, def. didn’t think he could after pre-season.

      • Necessary Proper

        You are right about SD, but his passer rating since then is:
        KC 49.4
        DEN 83.6
        NYC 69.

        • anon

          I think 83 isn’t bad against Denver considering. Does QBR account for the 80 run yds (I don’t know)? I think to beat man CK had him running more to loosen up the D for the passing game. Which i think worked as he put up 100yds passing in the first 10 minutes of the second quarter.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            83 isn’t bad considering what? That Vick only putting up 13 points against Denver’s D is the worst of the year? (and they’ve played NYG, Jax, and Oak – not exactly stellar QBs) That we play Tony Romo next week who sizzled Denver’s D (and will do the same to ours) to the tune of 500 yards, 5 Tds?

          • anon

            we had the all 22 debate on that 2 weeks ago. go read the post if you want to argue about the Denver game.

      • Token

        Why does this narrative that he was ok against Denver always keep popping up?

        51% completion rate. No scores. Is that acceptable?

        • anon

          I was fine at half time. (frankly i dont care if has passing tds or we let our RBs do the work). 3rd quarter obviously went to sh*t. But that was a team loss we’ve discussed on the all 22 their D had us.

          • Token

            Vick has been terrible in the 2nd half overall all season.

          • anon

            too small a data set to make a relevant statement about that. Against Skins they changed the O b/c we crushed them in first half. SD – he was fine. KC he was fine I think. Denver bad.

          • Token

            I have like 10 years of data on the guy. But just talking this season, how many losses does it take for you guys to realize hes still the same guy?

            All you talk about is he should start because he gives us the best chance THIS YEAR. Well, how can you say that? 1-3. Numbers are terrible.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      So no we’re subtracting games to prove points?

      Eh?

      • G_WallyHunter

        U Canadian eh?

      • Necessary Proper

        The element of surprise may have been responsible for some of the offense’s performance in the first half of the first game, and is now gone, so when trying to figure out someone’s future performance, you would be best advised to limit your analysis to games where the element of surprise is gone.

        • anon

          hah what? Haslem was like “I’ve watched every single oregon game”. He studied for that all summer, he’s just not a good d. coord / they don’t have great players.

    • Loke1988

      Actually it goes way back to the Minnesota game in 2010. The first half against Washington was a facade.

    • Eagles4Life

      Do you want to eliminate the 23/36 428 2 TD 1 rush TD performance too? That would also help show this rapid decline you speak of.

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        LOL.

  • anon

    Can we talk about how TERRIBLE the redskins look? Last year RGIII/Shanahans were looking like offensive geniuses b/c they, like Harbaugh, just exploited the fact that no one had seen a read option in pro ball. But i feel like they haven’t evolved their game at all (so glad we have CK!). Their receivers are not good and RGIII apparently isn’t great in a “pro style” offense. Against the Skins they started adding more designed runs, it makes me sad that’s the only way they can generate any offense — i don’t think RGIII will last 5 years at this rate. Hopefully i’m wrong but it feels GREAT talking to skins fans after what happened last year.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      The East is down to the Cowboys and Eagles.

      This is gonna be fun.

  • JamesDDl

    “Healthy” being the operative word.
    If Vick is 100% he starts.
    Anything less than 100%, which restricts his mobility – you go with Foles.
    Foles is a better “not so mobile” QB than a not so mobile Vick.
    If Vick starts and he looks rusty and out of sorts, you pull him for Foles.

    • Loke1988

      wrong

  • G_WallyHunter

    Great Read and Great Analysis, that conclusion, couldn’t have been said better

  • Token

    Based on play, Vick has played himself out of the job.

    1-3. 4-10 over 2 years. 46% last 3 games. 1 redzone TD, 26% in redzone.

    On most other teams, you are sitting down after that.

    IMO Kelly was in panic mode with Vick. Calling more QB keepers than he has all season combined. He didnt know how else to get points on the board with the guy and consistently move the chains. We saw the end result of what happens when Vick runs alot. He hurt himself.

  • Eagles4Life

    Nick Foles played great. Leave it in Chip’s hands. Some of you all’s arguments sound wildly skewed lol. The players seem like they know what’s what already, so that’s good.

  • aub32

    The thread is suprisingly benign given the game yesterday, but I guess that’s because Dutch and GEagle are still in bed. (I kid) Foles looked good yesterday. For everyone that compared Foles to Smith, myself included, at least Foles will take the occasional shot downfield. I really like that when Tampa took away the short stuff, Foles at least had the confidence to chuck the ball down field and his receivers were able to make some good adjustments, especially Cooper on his deep reception. If Vick is healthy, I think he should start against the Cowboys. He’s the starter. The offense wasn’t broken with Vick at the helm. They were still the #2 offense in the league. Many of the RZ woes were due to team mistakes, not just Vick. However, all that being said, I would not have a problem with Foles starting. I think we have two good QBs who get very good production out of Kelly’s system in very different ways. We should all be praising Kelly at this point rather than fighting over our QB.

    On a side note, can we talk about how awful this defense is. If the Bucs had even a decent QB we would have lost this game despite Foles putting on a really good performance. I hope we put some major resources onto that side of the ball this offseason.

    • Eagles4Life

      Amen.

      I agree about the defense to a degree. They are getting better. Third downs it’s like they lose their technique, but I will say the “bend but don’t break” philosophy seems to work at this given time. Big test next week though.

    • G_WallyHunter

      “We should all be praising Kelly at this point rather than fighting over our QB.” … Guys, can’t we all be friends?

      Aub has great points here, I hope Vick’s back, he’s the starter. We just found out yesterday that Foles CAN PLAY. For the sake of the locker room and other intangible aspects of the team that get affected by a QB switch of this nature, I think Vick should stay in until he can’t play because of injury (hamstring), or he has another 3 or 4 turnover game and CK is forced to make the consideration.. Making the switch right now would do more harm than good I think, depending on how Vick’s hammy really feels..

    • theycallmerob

      Agree re: Kelly and the D. But again, it’s clear the D is taking us nowhere. No better year to evaluate a qb than this one. Who on here sees Vick back after this year? What’s the point? Very simple question.

      • anon

        They’ve got 5 turnovers in the last 2 games (hard to believe right). I think it’s better than last year and I think they are improving — though maybe we won’t really know until next week.

        The late game turnovers are especially comforting considering how bad our d has been in the 4th quarter over the last couple of years.

        • aub32

          A lot of those turnovers were given to them. Jacobs dropped the ball untouched. Glennon and Eli threw passes right into the gut of our DBs. The Boykin pick was a thing of beauty, but I think the others were more on struggling players on winless teams.

          • anon

            Gotta be in position to make the play.

          • cliff henny

            beggers cant be choosers. they got’em

          • Brian

            Still, we only gave up 3 points in the second half. Best adjustments from Davis this season.

          • BlindChow

            Eh, we’ve given plenty of other teams turnovers that were gifts. Those still counted. I give our defense credit for coming up with gift turnovers; last year’s D probably wouldn’t have.

      • aub32

        I think it depends on the direction Kelly wants to go. If Foles/Barkley is his guy, then fine. Bye bye Vick. However, if he does decide to go QB early in the draft, then Foles must be traded. Vick can then essentially be the new guy’s Doug Pederson. That makes a lot of sense to me if Foles is not what Kelly wants.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          I’m not convinced Foles/Barkley is the guy…but I’m also not convinced they draft QB early. Such a conundrum.

          But short of a playoff berth I don’t think there is any scenario where Vick is here next year.

        • theycallmerob

          I dont disagree with that. Let Foles play and get either a QB for the future or a matt flynn trade. Win-win

          • aub32

            I say Vick starts if healthy. If not Foles plays with a chance to win the job.

    • cliff henny

      yup, praise kelly. both qbs have major flaws. imagine what kelly will do when he gets top college qb talent he can mold. so far, he made 2 qbs look much better than they did just 1 yr ago.

    • Eagledelphia

      We could probably create a birds 24/7 team and score on the Eagles d

    • nicksaenz1

      I hope we find ourselves in a position where we don’t have to spend a #1 pick on a QB so we can start our draft on defense. MUCH needed.

      • anon

        This what I’m saying if Foles plays great thanks. Let’s not blow draft picks trying to find QBs when we can blow them trying to find safeties and LBs.

        • nicksaenz1

          I wouldn’t get mad about a stud WR, but DT/LB/DB are my first preferred choices.

  • mrparabolic

    I’ve got a brilliant idea! Let’s start Vick and then switch to Foles when we get to the red zone. I foresee no problems whatsoever.

    • G_WallyHunter

      It worked for Staubach right?

  • Brandon Boykin, OLB

    I’m pro Vick, but you always go with the hot hand.

    And Foles has that.

  • Adam

    mmmm Morning Folks. Just a fine October morning. The leaves are changing, the Eagles are rolling.. the crisp smell of Foles is in the air.

    • Token

      Really looking forward to this Cowboys game. Really afraid of what they could do to the defense. Offense probably will need its best game of the year. And ST has to be waaaaaaaay better this week.

      • anon

        How after all that ST work we are still ranked 29th i don’t know.

        • Token

          Its sickening really. People defended Chip for keeping bums like Matthews that cant play defense just because hes supposedly a ST ace. We kept like 10 ST aces. And it resulted in more of the same. They have been awful.

          Johnson isnt a NFL return man IMO. Makes dumb decisions in addition to not really being a threat.

      • Adam

        Yeah the Cowboys are the closest thing to a legitimate NFL team in the NFC East right now. They have a decent offense and defense. I’d say avoid punting to Harris at all costs, just get it out of bounds.

      • aub32

        Dallas has had a scary good return game as of late. I hope Fipp pays extra attention this week.

  • aub32

    I think this whole notion of anticipation throws is so overblown. Let’s look at two different QBs Manning and Flacco. Manning throws with anticipation. That’s because he has to. If he doesn’t the ball won’t be there in time. This leads to “throwing a receiver open”. That’s really good and can be quite effective. The downside is it can also lead to some terrible picks if your receiver isn’t there.
    ….
    Flaaco on the other hand has a much stronger arm than Manning. He can wait half a second longer and still get the ball there at the same time if manning threw it half a second before. That’s a half a second more information Flacco gets to have. Why wouldn’t any QB want that? The downside is that now Flacco has to make a much better throw so it can get there in time. Also, sometimes QBs will overestimate their ability and lose that window by holding the ball too long.
    ….
    My point is both methods have their pros and cons. Both Flacco and Manning each have 1 SB. So can we drop this notion that the only way for a QB to win is to throw with anticipation?

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      Honestly that’s just the new “talking point” in the Vick/Foles debate. One that doesn’t hold a lot of value for the reasons you’ve pointed out.

    • JofreyRice

      I don’t know about your “half a second” numbers aub. I think it would be very hard to put a number on that with any real accuracy. Agreed on the overall point that Manning’s arm is weaker, and he throws with more anticipation.

      When he’s on, Flacco definitely throws with anticipation, though. Do you happen to remember the seam route he threw to Pitta from the shadow of his own goal in the Superbowl? Pitta was totally covered, and he threw it up to a spot over the defender to where only Pitta could grab it, at exactly the time he broke to it. I think even yesterday, he threw to a spot in the endzone for Jacoby Jones while Jacoby was on the 2.

      That being said, I agree that it’s not the only factor in determining if a QB can win a Superbowl. Hell, McNabb was a “see it, throw it” player, and he got pretty damn close. Cutler is the same way, and he made it to the NFCCG.

      • aub32

        Of course I have no stats on the half a second. I have not timed the time it takes for Flacco to throw 30 yards vs Manning. I apologize for any misgivings that that was an actual stat and not just a figure given to help people unsderstand my point that I believed should be brought up. For those I have offended, I apologize.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          You win the day for this comment.

          I laughed. Hard.

        • JofreyRice

          It’s Ok. Don’t commit seppuku.

  • JofreyRice

    Once again, Foles surprised me. He demonstrated poise under pressure last year, but he’s made more NFL throws this year. That being said, I would have loved to see him make some stick throws into tight coverage. Tampa was playing a pretty soft zone, which I think, is why they ran so many WR screens. I think Mark Barron blew both the coverages for the Desean TD’s–another overrated ‘Bama secondary player. Cooper beat Banks clean for the TD. It’s a good defense, in general, but just for informational purposes, I would have liked to see them play man more, to see what Foles would have done.

    It’s funny because I thought Foles was a little slow with some of his reads, but he’s averaging just 2.6 seconds to throw while Vick is at 3.4.

    I have a hard time understanding exactly what Kelly is looking for in a QB. If he really values quick decision making and repetitive accuracy, I think the guy is Foles. But I think the history of Vick winning the job, and being supported by Kelly makes you think Kelly really values the pressure Vick puts on defenses with his legs.

    I still maintain that Vick won the job, and has not done anything to lose it, yet, but I can see the case for Foles. It’s hard to tell what Kelly really thinks of Vick. I think the decision will tell us how much Kelly blames the OLine, receivers and defense for the redzone problems, and let us know just how much important a QB’s running ability is to Chip.

    • anon

      Best comment this morning.

    • Token

      Made posts showing the numbers. From a pure performance standpoint, Vick lost the job. It doesnt even matter who the backup is or how he has played. Vick has not played well. Awful in his last 3 games. 26% in the redzone.

      Now I dont see Foles/Barkley as the future. But that isnt the argument is it? FACT is Vick hasnt gotten it done. What good is this supposed strain he puts on the D with his legs if it doesnt end up in points on the board? Factor in the age, it no longer makes sense for Vick to play. You can no longer say that he absolutely gives them a best chance to win this season. So you have that, in addition to wanting to see if you have anything in Foles or Barkley going forward.

      Now onto Foles yesterday. They blitzed him a bunch. And the line didnt play that well. He managed to avoid probably 3-4 sacks by throwing at the nearby receivers feet. I want to say his arm looks a bit stronger on the intermediate stuff this year. Doesnt have a cannon by any means, but certainly strong enough. He has a way to go to prove to me they shouldnt take a QB #1 next year. But its a hell of a lot more entertaining to find that out than it is to watch Vick fail over and over.

      We are at 4-10 in the last two years with him. When does that end? Let him go to 5-14? What is there to gain there? Aside from the QB debate, its just madness to continue down that road.

    • aub32

      I think you summed up exactly what I was thinking. The only thing I will add is I think Foles average realease time is reduced by the high volume of screen passes he throws. When having to go through his reads, I’d say he takes about as long as Vick. That’s not a knock just what I think since it also looked to me he was the ball for a while when not throwing screens and one option routes.

      • Vick Must Go

        That may be valid.

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        There release times are pretty even.

        Foles was coming in at 2.7 and Vick in the 2.7-2.85 range – both of those are long when ideal is 2.5 or less. As Kelly told a reporter at the half:

        “We need to get the ball out quicker”

    • Mike Calabrese

      That is honestly the biggest question in my opinion. Which style does Kelly want? Now my guess is the qb that can scramble bc it opens up his offense so much. However the drafting of Barkley is what makes me wonder how important it is to him. Yes Barkley in 4th was a “steal” I guess. However this is a team with way to many holes to waste a 4th round pick.
      I think that Kelly has to go back to Vick bc of the locker room and how Vick is viewed as a leader. Kelly has to gain the players trust and benching Vick for Foles is not going to go over well with this group at this point. It’s much easier to stay with Vick and move to Foles if out of contention or Vick plays bad. If go to Foles and he plays bad it’s much harder go back to Vick. However Vick should not come back against Cowboys unless hamstring is over 95% healthy. He is a scrambler and hamstrings can linger if play to quickly. Foles showed he is capable and lets not rush back Vick if he is limited with his legs.

      • Nicholas Disilvestro

        I’m not really sure about the whole “he will loose the lock room if he doesn’t start vick” argument. People on this team respect Foles too.

    • Max Lightfoot

      I agree – Vick has won the job. Even though most folks here realize that it’s a rebuilding year, Kelly still needs to win, period. And that probably means it’s important for both QBs to stay healthy. So while it’s great that Foles played so well, I am also cheering for Vick to get healthy soon – it just makes sense. We need them both this year.

      While it’s tempting for us fans to hope our Eags tank to get a high draft pick in the 2014 QB Derby, that is anathema to Chip Kelly. Whether we do well or implode this season, Chip will know by year’s end what he needs in a QB and draft accordingly, or maybe even settle for what he has. This cat is a complete mystery, and anyone who says they have him completely figured out is just pulling our legs.

      In the meantime, this season is so much better than last year, and it’s been fun to see Chip’s new system. I think the D will eventually catch on to the 3-4. Go Eagles!

  • anon

    ESPN has Vick with the 9th highest QBR in the league. Terrible.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      LOL.

      You know you have to throw that stat out to make room for the ones that show he’s bad. It’s only fair.

      • anon

        I guess the haters have no comment.

    • Adam

      Haha that’s a good point. He’s 9th with a 65.4.

      Nick Foles was 6th (84.6) last week and 3rd (89.8) this week.

      Nice try though.

      • anon

        That wasn’t my point. People are saying Vick is terrible. My point is that he’s been pretty good.

        • Token

          So what you are saying is you dug deep to try and find the one stat that says hes not playing bad? Look at the passing portion of what goes into that stat. Doesnt look so hot. The running portion is ranked 2nd.

          • anon

            No. I was actually googling QB release times, QBR came up so i looked. Frankly I thought Vick would be more toward the middle of the pack, but no. 9 is pretty good. But reading comments from you and others you’d think he was playing terribly. My only point is that he’s not. Maybe he gets Alex Smith’d but he hasn’t played poorly enough to lose his job.

          • Token

            The stat takes into account the Giants game, which was his highest ESPN QBR of the year since he didnt finish. His run QBR was high that game.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            SO it doesn’t count?

            lol

          • Token

            O it counts, like im counting down the days…..

          • anon

            So we should toss out Foles’ highest QBR and call it an outlier? Should we also toss out WAS and SD?

          • BlindChow

            His completion percentage over the last 3 games is less than 50%. That is poor performance. Those are Tebow-level numbers. His QBR number is skewed by his running (it favorably weights plays that pick up 1st downs), but that hasn’t helped the Eagles score touchdowns in the red zone.

        • cliff henny

          credit kelly. he just might be worth 7m a yr. making 2 flawed qbs look top10. if anything, this makes me even more excited to get marioti or hundley in ’14 draft

        • Adam

          So if you put any weight into that stat (which you shouldn’t by the way, ESPN QBR is a flawed stat) you would see that Foles has been playing better.

      • Andy124

        Worthless stat even when it supports my argument. QBR needs to never be heard from again.

        • Adam

          Yep, terribly flawed stat.

  • BigWhoopWannaFightAboutIt

    I usually just read and don’t post, but I had to on this one.

    This is what I will say: Some of the people who post here regularly are crazy. I’m talking bona fide nutso. That declaration has nothing to do with any specific stance one may take on any particular issue. It has to do with the inability to escape painfully circular arguments.

    • Adam

      This is Philly sports. Bona fide nutso is a minimum requirement.

      • Token

        A sane person wouldnt follow these teams, let alone spend time arguing about them.

      • BigWhoopWannaFightAboutIt

        That distinction hasn’t been lost on me. I live by Trenton, NJ where half the fans are Giants fans and half root for the Birds. In conversations with them (Giants fans) I have to CONSTANTLY remind them of two things;

        1) That I know the Eagles have never won the SB, and that I don’t support rooting for a team just because they win

        and

        2) That the simple fact I like the Eagles means that I am little bit crazy, especially given my location. It would make life so much easier to root for the Giants, but I can’t, because I’m craaaaazzz-eeee.

        That said, the arguments on this thread are ridiculous. Everyone knows that Vick is a good QB, but he will never, ever be great. We don’t know that about Foles. I’ve seen people claim that dropped TDs count but not dropped INTs when talking about effective QB play. I’ve seen people claim that Vick can’t move the offense, even though its mathematically proven he can (until he gets to the RZ).

        And just to be clear, I don’t intend to insult anyone in particular because from what I’ve seen nearly everyone who posts here is at least a little bit right, IMO. Thats why its ridiculous.

        • Adam

          I hear you. It’s a volatile mix. Add the internet to that mix and you’ve got a very unstable product.

    • EaglePete

      You should try reading other websites if you think fans here are crazy. Way more knowledgeable nerdy football talk here than anywhere else, not even close. Of course, sometimes you have some crazy back n forths that go off the rails at times but thats expected. Feel free to read philly.com comments, I cant even go there anymore its just all negative and immature. The Eagles site is even worse, super homerism taken to the nth degree, so kind of the opposite. This site stays on point with most of the commenters that have been here regularly for a while. You can also only expect so much from any thread, I find this site to be far better than anything else.

      • BigWhoopWannaFightAboutIt

        I read all sorts of websites, about the eagles, other teams, news, etc. Except I don’t waste my time on the Eagles website. Spadaro just annoys me.

        This site is great because of Tim and Sheil. They may be the best in their business, aside from Ray Diddy. I hope you didn’t take offense to my OP, because none was intended.

        The debate between Vick and Foles on this thread is thoroughly silly, with all the stat cherry picking and QB-homerism. Most people who comment on this site and BGN are knowledgeable, well informed and respectful football fans.

  • Scott J

    I always find it interesting how different the offense looks when Vick is sidelined by injuries and someone else QB’s.

    • Token

      Yea because it usually has better flow and structure. Less sandlot football.

  • Kev_H

    Let me be one to say it now– I am enthusiastic about the Eagles’ Super Bowl chances if Foles is the QB for the last half of the season. The defense is sketchy now, but they will improve. The Eagles are in a weak division that they can take and with Foles, Kelly, and a passable defense, I think this team can hang with anyone. I wouldn’t call them a favorite, but I think they have a shot. I don’t think they have any shot counting on Vick to take them to the playoffs and win 3 playoff games in a row. Remember, the defense should get better. Foles should get better. Vick is what he is. He hasn’t won a playoff game without cornrows and he hasn’t had cornrows for a long time.

    • ztom6

      Vick or Foles, going one and done in the playoffs would be a great year for this team. Right now if the Eagles went on to win the division they’d be looking at playing the 49ers at home in the first round. Then if they somehow managed to win that game (doubtful) the competition would only get better from there.

      • aub32

        Let’s hope the 49ers take that division. We have a chance against Seatlle if they have to come to Philly.

        • anon

          Hah i’d rather play away.

          • aub32

            Not against Seattle. Everyone else, sure.

  • Adam

    Foles has led 7 TD drives in 7 quarters. Vick has led 11 in 17.

    In 1.5 games, Nick Foles has matched the TD production Vick had in 4.5 games at 7 TD’s,

    In his last 248 pass attempts, Foles has 11 TD passes and 2 INT’s.

    The Bucs pass D gave up 5 TD’s in 4 games before meeting the Eagles. Foles put up 4 in one game.

    Among all 2nd year QB’s, Foles has the highest completion percentage, the highest yards per attempt, the best TD/INT ratio and QB rating.

    (h/u to @IgglesNest for these stats)

    • Kev_H

      Foles is also the Eagles’ all-time career leader in passer rating.

  • Scott J

    I think Kelly may regret signing Vick to a one year contract and naming him the starter. If Foles outplays Vick, the locker room could split. A lot of players like Vick, and if Kelly benches him, it could cause problems. It’s obvious that Foles is good enough to run Kelly’s offense. My only question about Foles was the deep ball, which he answered Sunday.

    • Token

      I dont think the locker room is that pro Vick anymore. They say all the right things. But I dont think they care. Jackson has already said things that allude to that. They just want to score points.

      • Adam

        Agreed. I think the locker room is 100% behind Chip. Whatever his decision is they’ll support it.

      • BlindChow

        I agree. They like winning. I don’t think they’ll have a problem with Foles, as long as he keeps getting them into the end zone. If Vick starts again and continues to struggle through the air, they may actually prefer making a switch.

      • EaglePete

        I disagree, I think its def still a potential issue. Look no further than the talking heads and how they talk about Vick vs Foles as recent as last night. Still pro Vick, I even hear radio hosts in Denver enamored with Vick its really kind of nuts I think. I really believe the Vick idol status is more than any other QBs simply from his athletic ability. Then with the fans, its not even close, fans are still crazy for this guy. Other cities and teams and they still think hes special. Now onto the players who idolized him when they were younger. There is no way that just falls off that easily. Not saying it would necessarily cause a rift but I still think a lot of them back Vick more so, Shady for sure and I wouldnt doubt Vicks outspoken leadership qualities are far above Foles at this point in their careers.

        • Token

          Talking heads dont matter. Fans dont matter either, but all polls im seeing what Foles to start next week.

          I think Chip stays with Vick but he only gets one more bad game then hes done for the year.

          • EaglePete

            I agree, I think so also per who starts, that leash just got a lot shorter (really no pun intended, short leash is about the best saying there is for the situation). Like I said, I dont think it will cause a problem in the locker room but I really do believe Vicks leadership qualities will possibly make it uncomfortable at best if/when Foles starts. Reporters and stories will make it worse. Foles will have bad games. This is a different team against good competition, thats why I cant wait to see how they fare against Dallas. Been a while since Ive anticipated a semi important rivalry game, feels like forever.

  • Jack

    Nick Foles has 14 TDs and 8 turnovers in his career. Vick has 164 TDs and 125 turnovers in his. 1.75 to 1.312. Foles has a career 62% completions vs Vick’s 56%. Foles career rating is 88.2 and Vick’s is 81.0. Vick is an 11 year veteran and Foles just started his 7th game in his 2nd year. Foles is already outplaying Vick in every category but running. Not sure how you can argue that Vick is definitely the better option. Vick is 33 and Foles is 24. Foles hasn’t reached his prime and could be a starter in this league for 14 more years. Vick is on his last couple of years. I don’t see a reason why Vick should continue to start for this team. If Kelly decides to stick with Vick for now, it is so he doesn’t go back on his word. After this year, if things stay about the same, Foles should be the starter game 1 of 2014.

    • nicksaenz1

      I’m a Foles guy, but Kelly going back on his work may be the most important point made. He’s got the players’ trust now. If Vick is 100% healthy, he should start, not because he’s the better option, hard to make that case right now, but because of Chip’s words at the end of the QB competition. If he’s 90 or less, he should be active as backup. If Vick is healthy and goes out over the next two weeks and we’re not winning, for whatever reason, he has to switch it up and go with Foles. Keeps the players trust in Chip’s word, which is the ultimate foundation for the team. Lost belief in the coach or trust in the coach, lost the team…. For the record, very hard for me to say that because I completely think Foles has outperformed Vick thus far. But Kelly has to keep the locker room first and foremost, especially the ridiculous Vick idolators in the locker room who happen to be our two best offensive weapons. Have to make them 100% see that Vick isn’t getting the team W’s. They’ll get their stats regardless in this system.

  • Will

    Foles should start going forward he has earned another start and is the QB of the future.

  • EaglePete

    wow, 300 comments in an article posted today, crazy. I want Foles to be the starter, have since the offseason. That being said, I dont think the game and half tells us that much. I refuse to just think that small sample size is as telling as some are making it out to be. That being said, I also dont diminish that Tampa team. I really think Glennon is a decent young QB. His WR was at fault for the pick and they looked like a much better offense with him over Freeman. If their D holds us a bit more, thats anyones game but their top 10 D did not so credit should go to Foles and the offense regardless of record. Same with Giants although thats a bit diminished thanks to Eli.

    Can someone tell me how that wasnt a fumble on that punt in last nights game. The ball hit the defender, so was the call that he was blocked into the ball? In all my yrs of watching, thats a fumble. Is that a new rule? I get that maybe, if hes blocked 5 ft and pushed into the moving ball maybe you dont call it but that wasnt the case, they were both blocking and the ball hit him. Super lame, that changed momentum.

  • bebopdeluxe

    Why do people keep leaning onto the narrative that “Vick won the job in the preseason”? In August, both the offense we ran as well as the defenses we were facing were plain-vanilla…can you HONESTLY compare that to what we are seeing now? Defense are more complex, and they have made ADJUSTMENTS to what Chip ran out there the first couple of weeks. The offense is also more complex – and what Chip is asking the QB to read, interpret and execute is likely more complex as well…right?
    For me, what these guys do in October is WAY more impactful than what they did in August. Vick started out well (WAS, SD), but it seems like teams watched film, made adjustments, and in the next three games, Vick 1) SUCKED versus KC; 2) couldn’t get the ball in the end zone against DEN (something that Romo seemed to have little difficulty doing the following week); and 3) struggled in the passing game versus NYG (and it looked like the majority of the rushing yards he got were not from designed read-option plays, but from runs after Vick couldn’t find anyone open…which IS something, but not necessarily what I want to see from my QB).
    While Foles is not the prototype read-option QB, I think it is WAY more likely that Kelly can adapt his offense with Foles to be more of an 80+ play-per-game, fast-break Brady/Manning type of offense than getting Vick to – at the age of 33 – become a pre-snap/post-snap, read the “hots”, get it out in less than 2 seconds QB.
    For me , Vick is not the future of this team. I don’t know if Foles, is, but I would rather give him the keys to see if he CAN be the future…it is only THE most important question to be answered between now and the draft next April. And even if Kelly is ready to mortgage the future in April for Mariota, perhaps Foles can play his way into being a valuable trading chip (2nd round or even end-of-the-1st round) for a team that is looking for more of a prototypical WCO quarterback.

    • aub32

      1) So just because it’s not what you want to see means Vick’s rushing yards count less than Foles passing yards?

      2) What’s your excuse for why Foles didn’t outperform Vick against those same vanilla defenses?

      3) Wouldn’t playing Foles expose him to being put on film in this offense and allow defenses to scheme against him? If that’s the case why play him? His value is at an all time high right now. If your not going to keep him, wouldn’t playing him potentially ruin his stock?

  • Cyrus Robinson

    I went to the game yesterday, and here is what I saw:
    Nick Foles trusts Riley Cooper. I don’t know if Vick gets flashbacks of the Green Bay game whenever he throws deep to Cooper, but every time I saw a deep ball from Foles going to Cooper, I got nervous. Also, and I’m not 100% sure about this, but a fan by me told me that the CB covering Cooper was one of the Bucs players with MRSA. The whole MRSA distraction may have also led to a downer game by the Bucs.
    I don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade, but the Bucs just had a terrible day defensively. Nick Foles is not better than Drew Brees or Tom Brady and Riley Cooper is a terrible WR2, but Nick Foles put up more points than both of them and Riley Cooper got 120 yards. I think that that points more towards the Bucs playing poorly than the Eagles playing great.
    I don’t know if Cooper is better than I thought or if he just had a great game. I guess that yesterday was a glimpse of what the offense would look like if Maclin was healthy this year, since we finally had two viable WR threats.
    The Eagles’ pass-rush was extremely frustrating. It was reminiscent of the wide 9 from last year: just everybody running passed the QB on a consistent basis.
    Nick Foles’ deep TD pass to DeSean was an absolute beauty. Great anticipation and great location. I like Foles, and I don’t want my earlier comments to seem like I’m discrediting him, but I’m just in the whole “small sample size” boat. If next week’s game didn’t decided first place, I would want Foles to start, but since it is such a huge game, If Vick is 100% healthy, I feel he should start. I believe he would play his best game of the season because he’s highly competitive and would want to squash the whole QB debate with Foles. However, if he isn’t 100% healthy, Foles should start.
    Vick should study how Foles operates in the Red Zone. He has the same receivers available, but they’re being more effective.

  • Nate Ray

    foles and vick are pretty much the same QB when they have time to make thier reads. the major difference is obviously red zone scoring which vick hasnt been able to capitalize on yet this season. and it wasnt completely his fault because celek has had at least 2 TD drops in the redzone this year. but in the long run it doesnt matter who starts because both qbs can run this offense. i think the QB who can help us score the most against a pretty good dallas team should be the QB we roll with

    • BlindChow

      I think most people would agree with your last sentence. The problem is they also are pretty split as to who that QB is.

  • Bullwinkle

    Let’s assume both QBs are able to move the offense equally well at present. Since the Eagles are an extreme longshot to reach the SB in the next couple of years, would it be smarter to play a 24 year old QB with the potential to develop into a very good QB or a 33 year old QB who has has reached his max potential and has a history of missing games each year due to injury?

    • Dutch

      No, given the likelihood that the 24 year old has the same chance at being the Starter next season under Kelly as the 33 year old.

      A lot would have to go wrong for Foles be around and any place near the QB position for the Eagles in 14, this kid is not the QB for a Chip Kelly offense.

      • Token

        And Vick is?

        1-3. 4-10. When does it end? Someone please answer this question. Nobody wants to. What more do you people need to see?

        I realize that you Vick backers have hurt feelings that he let you down once again, another year. You were wrong again. But step into reality. Look at the numbers. Look at the facts.

        I dont think anyone is saying Foles is the future right now. I dont believe that. I still have my eyes on college QBs in the 1st round.

        But that doesnt change the fact that its time to end the Vick era once and for all. You were fools for thinking a 33 year old QB would suddenly change.

        • #7

          LOL

          Why does it take 1 1/2 games for you to determine who’s best? Your QB should have won the job, which goes back to a question you always run from.

          Why didn’t Foles win the competition? That simple question…you still haven’t answered for months now. Months. Now you get 1 1/2 games with Foles and now you’re having a wet dream. I’ve always said to you…it will play out on the field. Thank God that Chip is making the call and not you or we fans

          • Token

            Back to Foles we go I see. Guess thats all you guys have left.

            1.5 games?

            Ive watched Vick for years. I know exactly what he is. Hes been pitiful for the last 2 years. 1-3 this year with mediocre numbers in a offense that begs him to put up big stats.

            Foles play has little to do with my thought that Vick shouldnt start anymore.

            At the start of the year the argument was Vick gave us the best chance to win this year. A lazy argument, but it was made.

            Now thats just not the case. At very least, Foles gives you no less chance to win right now.

            So explain how playing a lame duck QB makes sense?

          • Nah__Roots

            “a offense that begs him to put up big stats”

            hmm…chicken or the egg?

          • #7

            “Foles play has little to do with my thought that Vick shouldnt start anymore.”

            What?? Well why are you cheering him on so hard then Token? Everyday from you it’s the same thing. Just be consistent man and it would be easier to stomach you.

            “So explain how playing a lame duck QB makes sense?”

            Why don’t you try to ask the head coach that and not us? Vick made that choice happen by beating Foles. You STILL have not answered my question.

            STILL. Cmon Almighty Token. Let’s hear it

          • Dutch

            Oh please, Vick lost to 3 of the best teams the NFL has to offer this season, and with a legitimate defense the Eagles may have beaten two of those teams.

            Conveniently you have all but forgotten, against the Charger and Chiefs the Eagles defense couldn’t get off the field late in the game as those team sustained exhausting drives right up the caboose of the Eagles for those wins. That had nothing to do with Vick or the offense miscues.

        • Dutch

          Vick is the 33 year old that is not expected to be back next season as is the 24 year old who will be looking for a new employer. There’s no future in Philly for Vick or Foles. I don’t know Vick has let anyone down, he’s the QB of the 2nd Rated Offense in the NFL, putting up 24 pts a game, and more than 400 yds of offense. I don’t see that to be a disappointment.

          What is a disappointment for this team this season is the contributions of the defense and Special Teams.

          This offense in anything but stagnant, true we have some issues with receivers catching the ball but for the most part this is one of the most dynamic offenses in the game with Vick under center.

          How you can classify an Offense scoring 24 pts a game on 400+ yards every outing is beyond all reason.

          Foles may prove to have some worth in the trade market if some novice General Manager forgets his accomplishments are against winless teams.

          • #7

            That’s mediocre to Token unless it’s Foles doing it. There is no middle ground with him. It’s Foles or nothing.

          • hawaiieaglesfan

            Spot on Dutch. stop all this QB controversey. Vick will start if a 100% healthy. O is not the problem. D is the disapointment this year.

  • BlindChow

    One thing I’ve noticed: this game hasn’t made a difference in anyone’s opinions. You believe after the game what you believed before the game.

    If you want Vick to be the starter, this was just an empty victory against a winless Bucs team. If you want Foles to be the starter, this was a tremendous victory against a previously stout defense. And I bet you’d see little change in that split even if Foles had played poorly; there would always be some “reason” to support your opinion either way.

    Maybe we should try debating abortion instead!

    • #7

      “previously stout defense”

      That’s what it appeared to be to me or they were off that day. Either way, Foles got the job done. A win is a win

  • #7

    1 1/2 games against two winless teams and Foles is the savior again. Not surprised. Nothing against Foles, he did his job and he played well. I can remember back the the Kolb “Era” people were saying that Kolb should be the starter even after recovering from his concussion and now you’re in favor of a person losing their job due to injury.

    I could see if Vick played bad enough to be benched but he hasn’t. Actually he moved the team better than Foles and Foles has done better in the RZ. Vick should start and shouldn’t have to look over his shoulder, as the HC said. If Vick was playing badly and turning over the football I would be for Foles starting, but that isn’t the case here.

    People keep saying on here “that they want to see Foles for the future” but to me it’s just a fanbase that wants something different and is tired of Vick. We have two QBs that can run the offense and the ones that say that Vick can’t are just full of hate IMO. #2 offense in the league says that Vick can run the offense. And you also have to factor in the drops in the RZ (although the haters ignore that purposely).

    And for you guys that say Foles has made Cooper a legit #2 pump the breaks. Tampa played zone the entire game it seemed like and Cooper found the holes in the zones. The best thing that Foles did was TRUST Cooper, which Vick has not done lately.

    I think that Vick is being tentative and not wanting to make mistakes while Foles is letting it rip…Foles has nothing to lose while Vick has something to lose and I think that matters.

    Foles has raised the stakes and I think that’s a good thing. Like I said during the QB comp, Vick responds with his back against the wall and he’s there again. He will respond, which is good for the team overall.

    • EaglePete

      your 2nd to last sentence is spot on. This is not the same as Kolb, not even close. And yes, Vicks age matters and looking to the future matters, no two ways around those facts. That is why you see so much support for Foles. Its that way more than hate for Vick. There may be a little extra hate for Vick, not for off the field stuff but because of his time here. That and constantly reading about fans and talking heads always, always, always creating ways to actively pursue reasons to start him no matter what transpires. When fans have lost patience, that part of it factors in, makes fans reactions a bit intensified.

      I agree he hasnt done enough to lose his job and I also dont think the sample size of Foles is big enough but Vicks back is against the wall. We shall see how it shakes out. Not the worst thing in the world to have 2 potential starters. The question is, are they both just average. Some fans think they have that answer in Vick, some want to find out more about Foles. To easy and early to just dismiss that as Kolb talk. Thats worse than making judgements based on Vicks career stats if you ask me.

      • #7

        Just brought up the Kolb point because it was the same thing. 24/7 wasn’t up and running in 2010 so this battle was going on at philly.com.

        Just clearly remember that people were saying that Kolb shouldn’t lose his job due to injury…and now they want Vick to lose his job. Just gets and sounds personal on here and myself included. I just wish that fans would respect both and be happy that we have two that can play. I’m partial towards Vick for reasons I’ve explained already, but if Foles comes in, he can win a game and the majority of teams do not have that luxury.

        It’s simple to me. Vick should start when healthy, which is what the fans would be saying if Foles was good enough to beat in the QB comp. If Vick doesn’t raise his game, THEN these questions will be fair to ask

        • EaglePete

          ya good points in last paragraph. If this was reversed Foles fans would be saying he shouldnt be benched. Thats kind of why I dont think its a big enough sample size yet. But I am for going young and seeing what you have. Either way, not the worst thing.

          • #7

            We’re tied for first place. Foles should play if we’re out of it unless he takes the job. Foles played well. i give him credit

    • Token

      What exactly is bad QB play to you?

      Did you think Tim Tebow was a good NFL QB?

      Is 46% over 3 games with 1 TD good for a NFL player in this kind of offense? Those are Tebow type numbers.

      Its pretty clear that if his name wasnt Michael Vick nobody would argue against sitting him on the bench.

      • #7

        KC = 6-0 (Best Defense in the NFL..should have won this game)

        DEN = 6-0 (Best team in the NFL..smashing everybody)

        SD = FG kicker missing FGs and people like you calling for his job. Vick 428 yds passing 2TDs 0 INTs. Did everything he could possibly do

        Foles lighting up:

        NYG = 0-6 (Had the lead when Vick went out)
        TB = 0-6 (defense overrated or off day or Foles is that good…we don’t know)

        I really used to think that you had some football knowledge, but here you are turning flips over 1 1/2 games against two winless teams. Not trying to make excuses, but these are facts.

        You pull so hard for Foles and at the same time you say he’s NOT the future put you FIGHT for him tooth and nail.

        ???????

        Confusing, hence your nickname, flip flop. Just wish you would throw your support behind Foles and go with it.

        • Token

          Why does a person who wants Vick out need to be a huge Foles fan?

          Yep, now TBs D sucks. Even though they were a top D going in and played some good teams. I figured that would be the excuse.
          People keep on bringing up that we lead the NY game with Vick. Do you forget they came back and took the lead? We needed the offense to close that game and they did.

          Everyone wanted to forget Vicks past performance before the season, saying it didnt matter. Well, now hes 1-3 and injured while also putting up some pretty bad numbers.

          Pretty obvious the excuses from the 3-4 backers he has left on here are running out.

          Im counting down the days…. Cant wait til this entire topic is over with.

          • #7

            Token…sigh…let me help you out since you refuse to read people’s posts.

            “defense overrated or off day or Foles is that good…we don’t know”

            Where do you see where I say the TB defense sucks?

            “Do you forget they came back and took the lead?”

            Foles was the QB when the Giants took the lead.

            The point is, Vick has not done enough to lose the job and Foles has not done enough to win it. If he lights up Dallas, he helps his chances which will make you very happy I’m sure.

          • Token

            What is enough to lose the job keeps being my question.

            1-8? I just dont know where your cut off point is. 35% completions? Maybe another stellar 15 TD season? I mean, what is your cut off? That would make this a easier conversation.

          • #7

            You’re all over the place man. Sometimes I think you get lost on what you’ve already said lol

  • KobraKai7474

    I am NOT a Vick hater, and, all things being equal, I would say that the starting job is Vick’s as long as he is healthy enough to play. HOWEVER, all things are NOT equal. Vick is on a one-year contract and his future with this team beyond this season is, at best, doubtful. The Eagles are at a very substantial crossroads. If there is going to be a bright future under Chip Kelly, that future is a going to be a year or two (or three) down the road, and Micheal Vick will NOT be the QB when that bright future arrives. As such, it is imperative to learn as soon as possible just what the Eagles have in Nick Foles, and, if it is determined that he can be their QB of the future, there is nothing to be gained by keeping him on the bench this year. He needs to be playing every week so his growth will match that of the team’s, and, if they are to be a real contender in a few years, he is going to need every game he can get under his belt now so he is ready when it matters. Even if playing Nick Foles every week only serves to expose him as the next A.J. Feeley/Kevin Kolb, it is best to learn that this year so contingency plans can be made to find their QB “of the future” in time for the 2014 season.
    Best case scenario, Michael Vick can win them an extra game or two this year, and, yes, maybe he can even help them sneak into the playoffs in the horrific NFC East, but, under no circumstances, are the Eagles a Super Bowl team this year so really what it is the point? A one-and-done playoff appearance gained because of Micheal Vick would do more harm than good because next year would start with the team STILL trying to figure out who the QB will be rather than preparing for the major step forward that many rebuilding teams see in their second year under a new coach.

  • David W

    Efficiency stats can be deceiving. Foles is undoubtedly playing well, but he doesn’t have near the upside of Vick. I think it’s telling that Foles played as well as he could play–an almost perfect game–and the Eagles had their 2nd fewest points on the season. Meanwhile, Vick makes mistakes every game, and leaves points on the field, but the overall productivity is still very high. Some of that is perhaps quality of opponent, but I think it’s more that Vick has significantly more big-play ability and his big arm and running ability spreads the defense out, creating more opportunities for everyone.

    In other words, to sum: an imperfect Vick game is usually just as good, often better, than a perfect Foles game.

    • nicksaenz1

      You don’t even have the correct stats. 31 is higher than the 30 against SD, the 16 against KC, and the 20 against DEN. So what was your point again? Oh, and our highest point total was 36, over half of which came with Foles in the game.

      • Adam

        I’m glad you took this one. I didn’t even know what to say.

        Foles has already matched Vick’s TD production in 1.5 games. Vick had 4.5 games.

        • Dutch

          Against winless teams, Ranked 16th and 30th in the 32 Team NFL ranking…… Come on……….. that’s not a legitimate argument.

          I’ve not gotten no answer to this simple question. If your back up QB can not look good against winless teams ranked in the bottom half of the NFL Defensive Ranking, where can he look good?

          • cliff henny

            true, but you cant hold looking good against him.

          • Dutch

            I don’t, I think Foles played well, and he was expected to play well against the quality of the opponents on Defense. It was impossible to loose to the Bucs because of anything Foles did other than turning the ball over and he didn’t turn the ball over. The Bucs were a good opponent for all the Eagles young guys on both sides of the ball.

            I don’t think he was efficient in running the total offense and still can not believe he’s going to be the starting QB next season given Chip has a chance to outfit the offense with his preferences. I still believe Chip sees the error in his not selecting Geno Smith in the 2nd round of the draft.

            Good game, but there is nothing in that game against a winless team that makes me believe he’s the QB for the Eagles offense in 14.

          • cliff henny

            agree, be shocked if kelly went with foles. part i like is, kelly once again made terribly flawed qb look good. has me more confident whoever is drafted next yr will become quality starter.
            you, qbs and geno, guy tossed 2 more picks plus put one on the ground but not a TO, scoring 6 pnts. guy does nothing for me. about 5-7 options in ’14 draft i’d rather see.

          • EaglePete

            ha Geno Smith, gimme a break, hes an INT machine. He will never be good. I have more faith that Foles will be a better starter than Geno. Bucs are a much better team with Glennon starting than Freeman, had their very good D shut us down more that was anyones game. Foles and the offense deserve credit. Still a small sample size but it was a solid win, regardless of record.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Still counting that garbage time TD against the Broncos huh?

          • Adam

            Hahahaha Ok.

            6 TDs in 1.5 games compared to 7 TD’s in 4.5 games. So much better.

    • #7

      Right on EaglePete

      • EaglePete

        that wasnt me, you have to refresh your list. Its weird how the names will appear everywhere once you respond to one. Sometimes it looks like the same person is responding to their own post.

        • #7

          Well not right on EaglePete lol

    • EaglePete

      what passes the eye test, timed pocket passing or escaping and making plays. Or escaping and staying near the pocket to find an open guy. I think Foles beat that short passing myth this past game and a half with big plays. What youre missing is that when things break down, its a lot harder to find the big play because guys have to break off their routes and find open space. As opposed to a bomb on a go route for instance. Oh and what gets you further in the post season?

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      “and the Eagles had their 2nd fewest points on the season.”

      HUh?

  • Neutral

    For every one saying that 1.5 games isn’t enough to name a new starter isn’t that how Vick got this job in the first place over Kolb

    • #7

      Piggy backing eh?

  • KobraKai7474

    Regardless of health, at some point (and that point is very very soon) the decision MUST become about what is in the best interest of the team IN THE LONGTERM! Yes, an argument can be made that a healthy Vick gives them the best chance to win right now. Heck, one can even argue that a healthy Vick might just help them squeak into the playoffs in the horrendous NFC East this season. Who cares?! If this team is going to become a Super Bowl contender under Chip Kelly, it is going to take a few years, and, even the most blind Vick supporter has to see that Vick doesn’t have more than a few years left in his career. As such, the best thing for the Eagles and their future Super Bowl chances is to start Foles now. He may well turn out to not be the answer, but even if that is the case, it is best to learn it this year rather than next year. Otherwise, we will lose the entire 2014 season finding out if Foles is the real deal rather than figuring that out his year, and if he is indeed the real deal, he desperately needs playing time now to get the growing pains out of the way as soon as possible.

  • lu WILLS

    its cowboys HATE WEEK..FUKK THIS TIRED AZZ DEBATE

  • Run Eagles Run

    There is a reason Nick Foles has had two amazing games against tampa bay… they fucking suck.

  • Jim

    I know this is the wrong type of article but I know it’s a popular comment section what do you think of us trying for Blackmon