Twitter Mailbag: On Foles, Vick And Billy Davis

Every Thursday we select a few of your Twitter questions and provide the long-form answers they deserve. For a chance to have your question published on Birds 24/7, send it to @Tim_McManus.

From @mike_e_kaye: You reported Wednesday that Nick [Foles] and Chip haven’t met in person since he took the job, why is that? Any speculation from org?

Yeah, from what I was told there has been no face-to-face meeting between Kelly and Foles yet, only a “positive” phone conversation. Michael Vick and Kelly have met multiple times, according to someone close to Vick.

There are a couple things to consider: For one, Foles is out west, where Vick owns a home in New Jersey. Much easier to have a sit-down when you live right over the bridge. Second, Kelly’s priority has to be making a decision on Vick. The 32-year-old is due $15.5 million this season. Foles will make $500,000.  In order to chart a proper course, Kelly has to do a thorough evaluation of Vick first. If he wants to keep him, they have to figure out the finances. If they don’t see eye-to-eye on money, then they have to try and move him. It is a bit involved.

Foles’ situation is less complicated. Kelly knows Foles’ game from playing against him on the collegiate level, and has spoken highly of him. Foles is under contract, and would probably play the part of the good soldier regardless of what his coach decides. Kelly will  have to determine how to move forward with Foles, but it is simply not as pressing of an issue at the moment.

Is it at all telling that Kelly, now three weeks in, has yet to sit down with one of the supposed candidates for starting quarterback? You can make the argument, though I am choosing to not read much into it for now.

From WHowald20: why would Chip keep Vick he’s injury turnover prone makes bad decisions in game has limited mobility and is owed big money.

Definitely don’t agree with the limited mobility claim, but I get the overall point.

Here’s why I am keeping the possibility of Vick returning on the table: Andy Reid and Marty Mornhinweg really pushed the envelope when it came to trying to develop Vick. I believe they saw all that natural ability — much of it left untapped by his previous coaches — and felt like they could harness and massage it to create the ultimate weapon. But they likely stretched it too far. By 2012, Vick looked like a QB who was overloaded with information and less in touch with his instincts. (Not a good combination, seeing as his offensive line was a total wreck.) Also, as you may have noticed, Reid likes to throw the hell out of the ball. No balance often equals trouble for the quarterback (again, especially with no O-line).

Kelly leaned heavily on the run at Oregon, and will probably try to do so here. He is not a big proponent of elaborate schemes and ultra-thick playbooks. Define your identity, do what you do, and do it well. How would Vick look in a run-heavy, play-action offense with a little read-option sprinkled in?

He is owed big money, but might be willing to play for less. The poor decision-making won’t be as easy to take care of. But maybe Kelly sees a formula that he thinks can work.

From @patrickcausey: Huh?! Wait… They hired… Who!? Why did it take so long? Underwhelming staff by Kelly #Eagles

Patrick’s reaction to the hiring of Billy Davis is a pretty common one. Between Davis and Pat Shurmur, there are too many former Browns in prominent positions for some people’s liking. And Davis’ track record as a defensive coordinator doesn’t inspire much confidence. To this point, he hasn’t demonstrated much “shutoutability,” to steal Kelly’s term.

So why did Kelly hire him? We’ll find out for sure soon, but my guess is Davis’ scheme preference and philosophy match what the new head coach is looking for. Davis also brings a wealth of NFL experience, which is key given that Kelly and some of his staff are lacking in that department.

This is what Kelly had to say at his introductory press conference when asked about the defense:

“In terms of what we want to be, we’re going to be an attacking style defense. It’s going to be a group of people who dictates the tempo of the game,” he said. “What that spacing is in terms of is it a 4-3 spacing or 3-4 spacing, I think it’s, again, looking at our roster and understanding who I have the opportunity to bring here. I can’t tell you that we’re going to be this or going to be that, but I know the style of football that we’re going to play and I know the style of players that I want to have out there. We’re going to play fast, we’re going to play hard, and we’re going to finish plays.”

Davis’ defenses have not stood out to date but there are other factors to consider, such as talent level at his previous stops. As has been pointed out, Jim Johnson‘s resume as a DC wasn’t tremendous before coming to Philly. It has to be the right fit, and perhaps this is it for Davis. We’ll see.

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  • Run Eagles Run

    Wow, it seems Tim and I agree a lot on Vick and why a second look isnt out of the question. I guess Tim just doesnt know the game either (wink!). I am not a Vick “fan”, I am an eagles fan, and I want them to get the QB situation figured out. I want the guy that is going to give Kelly’s offense the best chance to win. This isnt a rebuilding year, there are some guys with a lot of talent on the offensive side of the ball. Its slim pickings at the QB position. Leave no rock unturned. Whichever road Kelly goes down, I will put my faith in him until he gives me a reason not to.

    • MAC

      You do realize the question was asking why Kelly would consider Vick, not should Kelly consider Vick right? Big difference in questions. He is answering what reasons would Kelly want to keep him.
      It’s not all about last year or even about his 3 years here. It’s about Vick’s career and his issues with fumbling and int’s. He has had the turnover issue throughout his time in NFL along with durability issues. This is not just last year problem or even last 2 year issue but an entire career issue. Where the Eagles are as far as talent and the fact they are nowhere near a super bowl contender should mean that Vick is gone. Be honest, he is 33 yrs old losing a step, and less durable than ever and he has not exactly been durable ever, Even if you think Vick is a good QB (I would say average at best) and you think is best available what is the point of continuing with him when we are years and drafts away from being contender.

      Finding a franchise QB is no easy task and many times requires going through 2 or 3 QB’s to get to right one. So saying that why not exhaust other options that could potentially be franchise QB. Even if think Foles stinks, he is young and should see what has. We can look at A Smith or Flynn or draft a rookie.It doesn’t matter if we try one of them and ends up being bad then we found out now not next year. Instead of after we spent a year playing with Vick to at best end up in middle of pack?

      • theycallmerob

        MAC, just curious- where do you see the Eagles’ starting QB next year coming from? i.e., is it Foles, a FA (Dixon, Smith, Flynn), or a draft pick? And if a draft guy, who? My only concern is using a high pick on a QB, with so many seemingly “average” qb’s in this draft.

        • MAC

          Personally I wouldn’t draft a guy high bc I do not think this years QB’s are a great crop. I would try Foles most likely, but would bring in a little competition. I do not hate the Alex Smith idea, but am not high on it. I wouldn’t hate Flynn for a 4th round pick bc he ran a little at LSU and is accurate has shown glimpses of NFL success. I don’t know enough about Flynn to be honest though.
          I felt, and I understand some disagree, that Foles showed some signs that he could end up being a solid QB. I think some things he did that i liked are important to be successful in NFL. I thought he did good job of stepping up in pocket, sliding around in pocket, and keeping head down field while doing so. He seemed intelligent and did a great job managing clock for a guy with 7 games only. There were reports of Foles learning game plan quickly to back up his understanding of game. His deep ball was bad, but I believe was footwork and that can be worked on. He needs to work on Red Zone, but that is a tight area and hardest place to throw on field.
          Foles probably be my choice, but am open to other options. I just want a young guy that can grow and develop bc we are not close to being a legit contender now IMO, You got anyone you prefer?

          • theycallmerob

            (slow clap). I pretty much agree with you 100%. Especially the Foles bit.
            Your mention of the Flynn-for-a-4th makes sense, I have nothing in particular against the guy, but personally I would like us to bring in as much talent as possible in the draft- if anything, acquire some more picks. And after what happened to RGIII (and having Cousins), I’m curious if teams will really be lining up to trade their backup QBs.
            Now this may be too deep on my part, but I’m also wondering if having all these coaches out of college might make this draft even that more valuable (i.e., finding talent in the deeper rounds, and having some relationships already built coming into camp). Maybe a 4th or 5th round QB that flys under the radar, if for nothing else than camp depth?

          • aub32

            So my question to you is why not consider having Vick and Foles duke it out? Should Vick not be given the job even if he proves to be a significantly better option than Foles in Kelly’s offense? Keeping Vick gives us legit competition for Foles, and allows us to maximize the talent we get in the draft. Also, please don’t use the notion that this is a rebuilding team without the talent to compete. This team has plenty of talent at the skill positions, and HC / GM aren’t allowed to just concede a year. Their job is to win games now. Also, let’s assume Vick restructures.

          • theycallmerob

            I was all ready to write my response….then I read your last sentence. That’s it right there; I have said before I wouldn’t mind Vick on this team, just not with his current salary.
            I still think it’s a rebuilding year, not to say they’re losing games. Just being pragmatic. New schemes on both sides, and I don’t think we’ll have the defense (especially if it gets younger) to really compete in a deep NFC with many talented QB’s and make a deep playoff run.
            Really, when it comes down to QB, the only decision I would be concerned about is trading for Alex Smith or Flynn. I just don’t know what they would bring to the table above-and-beyond Foles/Vick, especially if it costs us a draft pick.

            Also, not sure what their contracts look like, but when you say “assuming Vick restructures”, I imagine it would be in the same range as those two, so $ would be a moot point.

          • GoBirds1

            Even if he restructures to a reasonable number, say 7-8 million, it is way too much of a risk having him as a back up both financial and team chemistry wise. Time to move on. Vick wants to start and make starter money, not happening here.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Vick is one of the most liked players in the Eagles Locker Room and holds martyr status among the NFL players. Vick is probably one of the only active NFL players who is summoned for autographs from newer players in the league.

          • GoBirds1

            What do you base the first statement on? And how does the second have any merit whether he will be good for a young rebuilding team? I felt Vick contributed to the divide in the team because of his mistakes and TOs and they seemed to rally around Foles presence on the field. Let’s face it, the Vick highlight reel act gets old for both the fans and his teammates, its time to move on.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            The $3 Million Vick secured from the Eagles a few days ago says you’re wrong and your feelings don’t amount to much in the Eagles locker room and subject to be crushed. You have no more information about the chemistry in Philly’s locker room than the next guy with a biased opinion. The Eagles moving on isn’t so cut and dried as the Philly media and a hand full of fans have speculated.

          • GoBirds1

            I am sorry if your actually retarded, but you come across as you are. You are the one that made the comment about Vick being well liked in the locker room and I asked what lead you to make that statement. As everyone knows, except for probably you, the $3 million will be picked by any team that signs Vick for next year, so it is very low risk to buy some more time. Personally, I think it has more to do about posturing to get something for him more than anything else or evaluating him as a fit for Chip’s system.

          • MAC

            Bc by the time were legit competitive he will be 35 or 36 yrs old so what is point. I also think as many do that Vick is average at best and the turnover issue as well as durability issue have been a problem since he came into NFL 10 yrs ago. Either way most of us agree we are at least 2 yrs away probably 3 so what is point of continuing with Vick. Can you at least agree with that?

          • aub32

            I have already stated Vick is between 14-20 in regards to starting QBs in this league, which makes him average. However, I disagree that this offense in 2 years away. In fact, I could argue outside of the QB position, this offense will have better skill players, collectively, than most of the league. Therefore, I want the best option at QB running the show. Remember the the Eagles averaged nearly 26 points a game in 2011. If Kelly can get us back to that or perhaps a bit better, there’s hope that the defense won’t allow 30 points a game. I don’t fear any team in our division as currently constituted, and we saw over the last 3 years that you just have to make it to the tournament to have a shot.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            I liked Foles at Arizona and thought he was worth a look. After seeing him in 7 games, and comparing his starts with the starts of the other rookie Quarterbacks that came out, Foles fits in the bottom half of that pack. For some reason the press in Philly loves this kid, as unimpressive as he was in 2012. I don’t see a duke it out process between him an any Quarterback for a few years.

            Foles has horrible footwork but that’s because in college he never received a snap under center, he always received the snap in a shotgun formation, without adequate footwork he’s no where near ready to accept the lead role on a serious NFL Team.

            When in comes to Vick, Andy Reid was trying to put a circle into a square. Why would you used one of the most dangerous threats with the ball in open space as a pocket Quarterback? You’re negating the advantage he provides you by insisting he adopts to the scheme you intended for Kevin Kolb.

            Alex Smith was a horrible Quarterback with the 49er’s until Harbaugh brought in his offense, and under his option Smith did better than he had ever, so long as Harbaugh kept a tight hold of the reigns, but Kapernick when given the chance played much better because of increased mobility. Kapernick’s ability to run freezes defenders, hesitating in coverage against Vernon Davis or Crabtree and Gore can be catastrophic to a defense. Smith or Foles doesn’t give you that same edge. What happen if a defender hesitates against D Jax ?

          • MAC

            I do worry that even if Foles is good enough that he does not fit CK system. one example of my worry about CK not adapting a system to personnel, but getting personnel to system. I hope I am wrong, but interest in Dixon and Vick do scream that. I just hope we understand with change to 3-4, new offense, depth at oline and question on o line bc of return from injury, and secondary being awful, that we are couple off seasons and drafts away from being legit contender. So why keep an aging QB if that’s the case no matter what you think of Vick good or bad?

            I am not this negative fan like many on here believe, I loved McNabb and that entire era and always appreciated that each year we were in contenstion. I respect what Andt Reid did in his time, but knew it was time to go. I just am an avid believer that Vick’s turnover issues have been present throughout his career and that turnovers will prevent a championship in a league based on parody. I also was not a fan of CK hiring, but what choice do i have and trying to be open minded, but Vick talk scares me. All Vick lovers/apologists take that as negative fan or some ho racist or hating on Vick. Every fan who thinks seen enough of Vick to know what brings to table is not racist or hater.

            You think we keep Vick or that CK will give Foles a real chance? Do you worry about Kelly’s adjusting scheme to personnel vs other way around?

          • theycallmerob

            To be honest, I’m not worried about the scheme/personnel thing, especially at this time of the year. There’s really know way to know how it will play out, especially with the defensive conversion. That’s why I’m not bashing the Davis hire yet, since he has experience with converting the defense and playing that hybrid front-7 (which, with our current players, seems like a good idea for a year, maybe two).
            With the Vick thing….as I mentioned above, I just don’t think realistically he’ll be on the team as QB1 next year. He probably won’t restructure to a low enough level for the Eagle’s liking (if they were interested in keeping him), seeing as how he’s convinced someone out there will pay him at a starter’s salary. In a perfect world, I would love for the Eagles to restructure-and-trade him, even for a mid-round pick, but who knows if another team will take the bait.
            Even if Foles is not the next Peyton Manning, I could accept the idea of having him (I think another poster called him “Matt Schaub in the making”) even as a game manager, if this year’s focus develops into really creating a solid defense.

          • Run Eagles Run

            I think the eagles have better players than you’re giving them credit for, but it doesnt surprise me coming from you.

          • MAC

            Hum the only surprise is that you think this team is close enough to compete in next 2 seasons otherwise there is no reason to keep Vick at his age. Yea that seems logical with a QB issue, no o line depth along with questionable returns from injury, at total switch in philosophy on both sides of ball, learning and fitting into a 3-4, and probably one starter in secondary. So please explain what gives you faith in that situation?

            I know you didn’t say you felt we were going to be good in next 2 yrs but I can only assume you must bc even most avid Vick fan has to know he is on decline and looking past 2 yrs is a waste. I would think majority of people would agree we are at absolute best, and this is a stretch 2 years away. So keeping Vick for year 3 seems kind of dumb. It’s tough to disagree that in 3 yrs if Vick is starter at age 36 yrs that is trouble. I am sure at 35 or 36 he will suddenly be durable enough to sustain a read option offense. Right.

          • Run Eagles Run

            dont assume things about me, it makes you look even dumber if thats at all possible. I didnt say anything about vick past this year, you’re basically arguing with yourself.

          • The Guru

            Actually, you’ve been on the Vick bandwagon since Foles came in….wanna try again Gump?

          • laeagle

            I agree with this, although I’m even colder on the idea of Alex Smith. I don’t know how he’s an improvement on Foles at all. I also saw some good things in Foles last year. Not enough to bet the farm on, but some promise. And there really isn’t anyone out there good enough to take at #4 this year. Hell, you could make the argument that as deep as this draft is at DT and S, I’d not even want one of the QBs with a second round pick, and instead use that high 2 for one of those other positions.

        • The Guru

          Assuming Alex Smith is a free agent, he’s who I would go into next year with. As far as trading for him, I wouldn’t give up anymore than a 4th or 5th. But here’s why….Smith doesn’t turn the ball over, he ran the spread option under Urban Meyer at Utah, is only 28 years old, and is only under a very manageable contract for 2 years.

          If this is the style of offense they are going to, I don’t see the point of holding on to Foles or Vick. Neither are your future with Chip Kelly. Foles has a chance to be a Matt Schaub type of player, but not in this offense. Vick has 45 turnovers in his last 23 games. If Vick wanted to play for free, I’d pay him to go away. CK’s QB’s ran the ball 7-8 times a game. Add that to him holding on to the ball too long and his running out of the pocket, he’ll last 4 games.

          If it doesn’t work out, you go get Bridgewater next season.

          • theycallmerob

            what if Johnny football declares?
            can he? I remember something about the minimum age thing, but last I heard that got tied up in the courts….

          • PhEaglesPhan

            Wow!! So this is what a D-bag jerk circle looks like!

            This is seems like the same dude replying to his posts to finally have some one agree to his nonsense.

          • laeagle

            As much as I disagree with Matt at times, I don’t think his response was d-baggish at all. I think he has good points about Vick. There are a lot of concerns there. I don’t agree that Smith is much better. Foles also ran a spread offense at Arizona, so it’s not like Smith has anything on him there. But it’s not unreasonable to at least say that Smith has a better chance of performing moderately well than Vick has of capturing 2010 form. I just don’t see 2010 Vick happening ever again.

          • theycallmerob

            you might be unfamiliar, but this is actually football talk.

          • aub32

            You are making one heck of an assumption that Smith can perform without Harbaugh. Prior to 2011 you would have been considered insane to take Smith over Vick, and I do not feel as strongly that Smith would succeed without Harbaugh or that O line. Also, Smith doesn’t have the arm to get the ball to DJax.

            I get you hate Vick, but for what it’s worth, I would prefer his known strengths and flaws to the mystery that is Smith and his below average arm.

          • Gobirds1

            With Chippah and the current roster the likelihood of quick turnaround is higher with the O than the D. That being said, Smith without a stout D is worthless. If you followed him throughput his career he has a weak arm, cannot throw downfield or the out pattern. Foles has more upside than Smith a thrower. Please no Alex Smith. He got benched for reason.

          • The Guru

            There is a much higher chance Smith can perform without Harbaugh than Michael Vick can re-capture that 2010 form. If Chip Kelly is an offensive guru like you all think, Smith should be just fine. I’d much rather have a guy who takes care of the ball with below average arm than a guy who has 45 turnovers his last 23 games….and only has a chance to play 10-12 games.

          • aub32

            I don’t believe will ever recapture the 2010 magic. No QB in my opinion has reproduced what he did in those stretch of games since. I’ll take 2011 Vick that averaged over 26 points a game, and hope the defense can actually keep the majority of teams under 30.

          • The Guru

            So you’re telling me you want a QB running things who completed 59% of his passes, 3300 yds, 18 TDs, 17 turnovers (2011 Vick stats) and played in 13 games…..that’s who you want?

            My man, I have to question your football acumen if that’s seriously what you want.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Smith has a career 59% completion percentage…. and never reached 3300 yds, only twice in 8 years 16 games.

          • aub32

            Thanks for the assist. I don’t think he was getting the idea that I was referring to Smith’s whole career, not just his stint under Harbaugh.

          • The Guru

            I notice you did leave out his turnovers the last two seasons. Vick has 45 in his last 23 games. Smith has 10 INTs in his last two seasons. Gives you a chance to win every game….

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Smith is/was not allowed to throw more than 10 yards down field the last 2 years. Over his 8 year career he has 81 tds, and 83 turn overs through 3 coaches with the 49ers. What is different the last 2 years is his offensive line and coaching.

            Foles behind the same line Vick was exposed in his first 7 games has 8 fumbles and 5 interceptions with 7 tds.

            So your argument can not be based on, on field production. And neither is an indication they are future franchise Quarterbacks in the NFL nor of the Quality of Luck, Griffin or Wilson.

            Without Vick’s near mvp season in 2010 there is no division title and given any effort by the defense in 2011, the Eagle again are in the playoffs, you can not hold him responsible for a poor defensive performance that saw leads loss by the defense in the second half of games. In 2010 Akers make those 2 easy 34yd & 41yd field goals, the Eagles beat the Packers.

          • The Guru

            Foles is a rookie and can’t be judged the same as Vick. So remove that from your argument. You sound silly if you don’t.

            2011-2012 Smith had his team in the playoffs. Vick did not. On the field, using that argument, Smith is the better option. Thanks for playing.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            So compare Foles to Griffin, Wilson and Luck and the straw still comes up short on production relative to other rookies and your argument.

            2010, Vick took his team to a division title, Smith did not, that is simple patter. You’re not applying the same standards thus your bias is glowing. Why is 2011-2012 a success for Smith and, 2010-2011 not successful for Vick?

            At this point nothing suggest Foles is better than Vick or capable of achieving the success Vick and other 2012 rookies have.

          • The Guru

            I’m not sure why Foles is even in this discussion. With Kelly here, he should be traded. He has no place in this offense.

            My point is Smith is a better option than Vick. And I was just poking holes in your “on the field production” if that’s what you want to base the decision on. Smith has been way more successful than Vick the last 3 years. If that’s the theory you want to base this debate on, then I’m correct.

          • Zachary Kahn

            You do realize that Smith played in an offensive system where he was completely protected by an amazing run game and was asked to make very simple reads right? I actually agree with you that we should bring in Smith as a stop-gap type of guy but don’t make him sound like hes a pro bowler. If he played in the Marty and Andy “7 step drop until you drop” circus like Vick has his numbers would be atrocious.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Alex Smith by his stats with the 49ers before Harbaugh is not the future here, or with the 49ers. He’s a life time band aid and this isn’t the first or second time he’s been relieved with the 49ers.

            Without Harbaugh pulling the strings on Smith, you don’t have a franchise Quarterback with the kid, he’s proven that this year. The 49ers are a vastly different team with an inexperience Kapernick than they were with Smith, and Smith has been throwing to Crabtree and Davis long before Harbaugh became coach of the 49ers.

            These are the same and similar arguments in favor of Kevin Kolb as Dovonan McNabb’s replacement from the same peanut gallery. That more than proved that the base in Phila didn’t understand Football at the NFL level.

          • Guest

            Are you saying Vick is the answer?

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            I said on several occasions here Smith nor Foles is the answer.

          • The Guru

            But, since you’re in love with the Chip Kelly guru, are you saying he can’t have the same type of success as Harbaugh with Alex Smith? Are you saying he’s an inferior coach? Are you saying Vick is the answer?

            I never said he was the long term answer. All I said was he gives you a better chance to win next season than Michael Vick.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            No to both allegations. But it’s reasonable to assume if Smith can show improvement under Harbaugh’s option, Vick can find himself greatly improved under Kelly’s option. Vick, in Philly and Atl was playing schemes not fit for his natural talents. Philly offense was designed for Kolb not Vick.

          • The Guru

            Actually it’s not. Smith was 26-27 when Harbaugh got a hold of him. Vick is 33. Vick played under 3 schemes and 3 coaches. with 3 different schemes. Could it be, that maybe, just maybe, Michael Vick isn’t that good?

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Smith also a product of 3 coaches & 3 schemes, all with the 49ers, has not shown himself to be more than a stop gap back up with a career 81 tds and 83 turnovers.You’er lobbying for a step backwards Smith nor Foles can be the lynch pin in Philly solely based on game production. With the Eagles, Vick through is play helped secure a division title in 2010 and was a finalist for league mvp. Without Vick, Philly is not close to winning the division and came short in the playoffs because of Akers misses at 41 and 34 yds on Field Goals. Akers makes those and Philly beats Green Bay. That Philly D holds leads in 2011 the Eagles are again in the playoffs.

            Without Harbaugh pulling Smith’s strings and reeling him in, Smith don’t give you production or chance simply because he’s not when given the opportunity through out his career.

          • The Guru

            So let me get this straight, in 2010, Vick led his team to the playoffs and lost because he threw a pick with 40 secs left (regardless of Akers). And in 2011, Smith led his team to the NFC Championship and was two dropped punts away from the Super Bowl. And if you want to base this on “on the field production”….seems to me Smith grabbed the opportunity much more than Vick.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            there can be no regardless of Akers, Akers misses 41 and 34 yds the Eagles loose by 5 pts.

            Eagle would not have gotten to the playoffs without Vick, 49ers got to the Super Bowl without Smith.

            Where Vick makes it happen, Smith is an opportunist along for the ride.

          • The Guru

            That’s absurd. You have no basis for knowing or making a claim they wouldn’t have been in the ’10 playoffs with Kolb. The only thing Vick makes happen is 45 turnovers in his last 23 games.

          • GoBirds1

            FYI, the is no such thing as a finalist for NFL MVP, he was candidate. Mr. Vick received exactly ZERO votes.

      • Run Eagles Run

        “How would Vick look in a run-heavy, play-action offense with a little read-option sprinkled in?”

        Does that sound like someone who disagrees with giving vick a second look? I didnt the eagles should definitely keep vick, I said I would trust Kelly’s decision whether he keeps him or not. You’re like a broken record.

    • The Guru

      Actually, this is a rebuilding year. They’re installing a new defensive scheme, a new offensive scheme, and are building through the draft. More proof you don’t know the game. And you’ve stated you are a huge Vick fan….so not only don’t you know the game, you’re a liar too.

      • aub32

        Every team builds through the draft every year, and changing schemes is not indicative of rebuilding. Were the 49ers rebuilding when Harbaugh took over? Did the Ravens rebuild mid season when they switched OCs? This team is pretty much set on offense with the mystery of who will start at QB and an additional OT. We aren’t sure what the team plans to do in regards to the defense. So I wouldn’t exactly call it a rebuilding year, more like heading in a new direction.

        • Gobirds1

          ‘we are set on offense except for QB’, then we are not set on offense. Duh!!!

          • Run Eagles Run

            thats why I said except. do you know what except means?

          • MAC

            Kind of a big except though and not easily fixed so kind of renders your point incorrect about not being that far away.

          • Run Eagles Run

            joe flacco just won a superbowl as a starting QB. Shut the fuck up. You’re dumb. Period.

          • MAC

            LOL what does this Flacco comment mean? You are knocking a guy who beat Luck, Manning, Brady, & Kaepernick to get a ring. He threw 11 TD’s and 0 picks in playoffs. So your telling me that he is not a quality QB? You think guys who beat those guys on the road and with those #’s are easy to find or that it was somehow lucky? LOL Yea I am dumb huh?

          • Run Eagles Run

            before the ravens got hot, what was your opinion of joe flacco? HAHA, probably like most football fans, not very high. His numbers arent great. Yet he played on a well coached team with a solid d, solid RB, solid WRs. And won a super bowl. And cleary you are dumb, mike vick will be in eagles TC. suck my balls moron.

        • The Guru

          Except San Fran already ran a 3-4 and had the personnel on the roster. I have no idea how firing an OC counts as rebuilding…that case is completely irrelevant for this conversation.

          We have no QB, no offensive line depth, no TE, no big WR, no NT, no DE, two OLBs who may or may not be able to play at all in the 3-4, and we need to replace all 4 guys in the secondary. And all of that under a coach with no NFL experience. If that’s not rebuilding, I don’t know what is.

          • aub32

            The mention was the fact that they changed their scheme mid season.

            Using your rational I would say we are rebuilding, but I highly disagree in regards to what we do have. I think getting one starting OT will completely change the perception of the O line. Todd will move back inside, and Watkins and Kelly give us decent depth. I don’t believe you need a big WR. The Giants didn’t have one. Nicks is only 6’1, same as Mac. I think Celeck is still one of the better TEs in the league. We have two 3-4 DEs in Cox and Jenkins, and Cox could be something special. I won’t address QB because we differ greatly on that topic, so we can just agree to disagree on that. That leaves NT and OLB to be addressed with FA and the draft still to go. We aren’t going to have pro bowlers at every position, but we have enough talent to win some games.

          • theycallmerob

            Sorry aub, but I can’t get onboard with Celek being one of the better TEs. I like him as a player, but like you said about the o-line (a good OT would move some Herremans, and move Watkins/Kelly to the bench), I think getting a dual-threat (blocking and receiving) TE, especially in this draft that seems to have a number of them, would allow Celek to fit in better as the backup TE. Get rid of Harbor, and get someone with a little more athletic ability/speed to stretch the field.
            But yea, I don’t think we’re in a complete rebuild mode; we’re already one of the younger teams in the league. Strengthen the defense around the edges (OLB and CB), hopefully draft a decent NT, and pick up a stud safety.

          • aub32

            I can’t disagree with anyone who wants to upgrade at TE, especially after this season. It’s just not a big priority on my list.

          • The Guru

            As far as Baltimore, they did not change their scheme. They changed the play calling.

            Think you’re way overvaluing Celek and Jenkins. Celek couldn’t block my grandmother in a wheel chair. Did Jenkins make a play at all last year? Maclin has never had 1000 yard season in a pass heavy offense. I notice you didn’t address upgrading all 4 DBs….

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            That’s not true, Jim Caldwell tinkered with the Ravens offense when he took the reigns of Coordinator and called a masterful playoff series and super bowl. It seemed as if Caldwell and Flacco were made for each other.

          • The Guru

            You are dead wrong. Flacco came out and said it. All they did was change the playcalling. Look it up.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Celek, is garbage… a Quality Tight End is Tony Gonzalas or Vernon Davis…… Celek can not be mentioned with those Tight Ends. Celek requires no attention as say Withen or Fred Davis of the redskins does and they’re in his division. The Eagles need a WR who can go get the ball and not wait on the ball to fall out of the air to them, they need the talents and skills that TO possessed when he was in Philly, a real physical game breaker.

            until we have a game breaker we aren’t going to win a super bowl.

          • Vick_Supporter

            Alex Smith would be a bad fit in Philly. We all know that you have a personal issue against Vick, but get real man. Alex Smith played behind the best O-Line in football and they ran the football, pretty much Harbaugh protected him…no down the field throws because those aren’t his strengths. Before Kaep took the job from him, there were whispers that Crabtree was a bust, yet all of a sudden, Kaep comes in and Crabtree emerges. Tree was doing ok with Smith at QB, but my point is our WRs here are soft and they do not like to make the tough catches (except Avant and Cooper). If we can’t get the ball deep to jackson, his value as a WR diminishes.

            Vick can get the ball to Jackson with ease, which opens up things for Maclin and others.

            My thing is, why not have Vick and Foles compete (after restructuring of course).

            Vick would beat out Foles with ease. I would love to see that so you would shut your mouth about Foles being better than Vick

          • The Guru

            Here’s how you’re wrong as usual. Based on Andy Reid’s offense, Vick is the better vertical option (and actually Foles is better than both). Based on Chip Kelly’s system, Alex Smith is a way better option. Kelly runs the ball 60% of the time (much like SF did) and Smith can throw with play action once they bring a safety down in the box. In no way am I saying Alex Smith is the answer at QB long term, but without question is a MUCH better option than Vick in Kelly’s offense right now.

            And while the vertical passing game goes out the window with Smith, DeSean would be facing much more single coverage since the safety won’t be over the top every play and he’ll touch the ball more with bubble screens etc. which is a huge part of Kelly’s offense. And if Vick has no problem getting the ball to DeSean, why did DeSean’s TD decrease ever year Vick was QB?

            There’s no point to having Foles vs. Vick competition. Neither fit this offense and neither are the long term answer. But if this were a pure pocket passing competition, Foles wins easily.

          • aub32

            Vick and Desean were a match made in heaven in 2010. DJax quit in 2011, but yet you point the finger at Vick. DJax was on pace for a 1200 yard season before Vick went out this year, and that’s without an O line giving him time to complete bombs. Come on guy. You have the audacity to knock everyone else’s football acumen, and then try to pull this. You seriously have it out for Vick and cannot view any topic in which he is mentioned objectively.

          • The Guru

            45 turnovers in his last 23 games. 2 playoff wins in 10 seasons. How much more do you need to see from the guy? I don’t have a personal agenda with Vick. I just find it hard to believe people actually think he’s a good QB. I’m not pulling anything. That is FACT. All you do is make excuses for the guy. DeSean quit, the o-line didn’t block, Reid passed the ball 40 times a game. Stop. 45 turnovers in his last 23 games…..those are Ryan Leaf numbers.

          • aub32

            You keep throwing out stats instead of looking at what actually happened. You brought up the Vick and Desean combo. How can you just dismiss that DJax quit. I’m a bigger Djax fan than Vick fan, but he quit. Yet you dismiss it as if it’s Vick’s fault. I have never denied your numbers, but you repeatedly ignore legit points that I or anyone else bring up. I am not saying you should become a Vick enthusiast, but at least argue the points that are presented instead of spewing the same numbers. You’re as bad as Skip Bayless whenever someone mentions Tebow. You just go to the memorized stats. There is plenty blame for Vick, and he is not in the top 14 QBs right now, and the argument could be made for lower. However, you do have to include circumstances, and the fact that you can say that the decline in DJax’s production in 2011 is on Vick is all I need to know.

          • The Guru

            So let me just sum up your position on all things Eagles: There’s no one one this roster that needs to be upgraded. From Vick to Celek to Jenkins to Thornton. Vick is not responsible for his failures as a QB in 10 seasons because of “circumstance”. Alex Smith can’t possibly be a better QB than Vick because he can’t win without Harbaugh. Both Chip Kelly and Bill Davis were fantastic hires that should not be questioned. And Trent Cole’s season was just an abberration and he will be back to double digit sacks.

            Do I have that right? Now that you read it, kind of sounds silly right?

          • aub32

            Silly and incorrect. Upgrades are definitely needed. We won 4 games. My point has always been about what to do this offseason with what’s available.

            I love the Kelly hire. If you’re going to replace the franchise’s best coach, then do it with someone who has the potential to be a game changer. Will it work? I don’t know, but I like that they went for it and that they got their guy.

            I’m not blown away by the Davis hire, but I don’t know of any better option. Horton was gone. Maybe they didn’t want him. Maybe they were set on one of the SB assistants that got blocked from interviews. Perhaps the moves that worked on getting Kelly didn’t work with Grantham. I don’t know. I do feel more comfortable after reading about the 4-3 under, but to be honest I was like “Billy who?”. I don’t hate it, but I far from love it either.

            When it comes to personnel upgrades, I base it on priority this offseason. Can we get a better TE? Hell yes. Celeck lost us the Lions game with his drops, and cost us a couple of picks elsewhere. Is Jenkins long in the tooth? You best believe it. However, we don’t have a Safety fit to start. We need at least one CB, and with the defensive scheme switch, NT and OLB lack starting caliber players.

            Cole is due 8 million if cut. I wouldn’t be apposed to a trade, but I doubt you get fair value. He’s going to be on this team, and he’s not going to ride the pine all season given the money and equity he carries. So given that, he at least starts the season as the predator. If he can’t perform, there’s Curry and Graham. One of those three should fit the bill.

            And that just leaves Vick, doesn’t it? I don’t know how to make you realize that I don’t think Vick is a top 10 guy. I know his faults: turnovers, sacks, defenses, injuries, blah blah blah. I will take his faults, in this system, over anyone available “this” offseason. I don’t like Smith. He sucked prior to 2011, and looked good under a great coach, great D, great O line, and good running game. Who can’t succeed in that? Hell Sanchez succeeded in a similar fashion when he first entered the league. Now look at him. Same thing here. Not to mention his skill set is horrible for the skill players on this team, and you will have to give up draft picks to get him, as the 49ers would be idiots to trade him. Vick has struggled, but he has struggled under some bad circumstances. With better O line play, a limited amount of pass plays (15-25), a DJax who’s all in, and an offensive scheme that isn’t so complicated I’m taking Vick over anyone else available. Again, that’s this offseason and this scheme. If we were going to apply a traditional west coast, then maybe I would get the game manager, but we’re not.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Smith hasn’t won under Noland or Singletary before Harbaugh so yea, without Harbaugh Smith can’t get the job done.

            Given Kelly’s addition of Davis, and Shurmur he’s surrounded himself with teachers. Shurmur was QB coach in Philly for a while, his association and work with McNabb here in a nice run more than qualifies him to run an offense in the NFL and return to Phila as OC.

            Davis is noted through out the league for implementing the 3-4 defense and based on the biographies of the position and assistant coaches seem fitting as a DC when implementing the new scheme is vital to a program.

            On both sides of the ball the coaches come well qualified from historically top flight programs in stellar conferences in the NFL and College level over decades.

            Kelly’s hires doesn’t reek of a popularity contest.

          • The Guru

            Nolan and Singletary are two of the worst head coaches in the history of the league…and both were defensive coaches. I don’t hold that against Smith. The guy didn’t get coached. The minute he finally got good coaching, he led his team to the NFC Championship. Kelly has surrounded himself with college coaches and the few NFL coaches he has brought in, they have failed miserably in the NFL.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            You may not hold it against Smith, but it’s his history never the less and fact he’s a career back up not a go to guy. Calling Pat Shurmur failed is insane. Working with Andy and McNabb more than qualifies him to be an effective offensive coordinator back in Philly. He is a product of one of the most winningness team in that decade.

            Davis is pretty much an authority on that 3-4 defense. I don’t think given the talent you can discount either of these guys. Caldwell loss 15 games as coach, and the next year as OC won a super bowl. A few years before he loss those 16 game, he won 14 consecutive games in a season in Indy.

          • The Guru

            Davis is an authority? Shurmur didn’t fail? My man, I can’t continue with this debate if you’re going to be that irrational about things. Look at their stats and records.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            D Jax is a casualty of faulty receiver coaching. Also, DJax is a weapon Andy didn’t know how to use properly, he’s being wasted away in the Eagles offense.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Vick was a horrible fit for the West Coast, the West Coast negated his talents and kept him in the pocket…… you don’t keep a threat from any place on the field tatted in the pocket, you’re assisting the defense. Within a option offense how can’t Vick shine? The option is designed to slow down the defenders, a hesitation could be a catastrophe in coverage on the outside, Coleman demonstrates that when he takes a step toward the line of scrimmage on play action fakes and then can’t recover to aid against world class sprinters on those bombs.

          • The Guru

            So Vick couldn’t win in Dan Reeves complicated offense that rolled him out on bootlegs etc. He couldn’t win in Jim Mora’s offense that was all run based and had him throw the ball 15-18 times a game. And he couldn’t win as a pocket passer in Reid’s offense.

            Kelly offense is about reading the defense and choosing between two plays when the defense shows itself. I think we can agree Vick has a hard enough time calling one play and has no idea what he’s looking at. To think he’s a good fit for this offense is incompetence.

          • GoBirds1

            Stop it with the Alex Smith crap, he stinks. Why would you pay him average $8 million a year for two years when you can ride Foles for $500k and spend the rest of the dough on all the other needs, or bank it until a future QB prospect presents itself.

          • The Guru

            As I’ve explained, he ran the spread option under Urban Meyer in college and doesn’t turn the ball over. He’s a much better stop gap than Vick or Foles.

          • GoBirds1

            Who cares about a stop gap. When a compelling QB of the future presents itself you pull the trigger and run with it, until then go with Foles. Why spend $8-$10 million per on a stop gap when you have Foles for $500K. Also, how is Smith running the spread option 8 years ago at Utah relevant to anything. If Foles sucks, great, now we know, we move on and we have another top 5 pick and get our future QB then.

          • The Guru

            How do you not know Foles isn’t a fit for this offense even a little bit? It’s like putting Tom Brady in the Seattle offense. It’s stupid to even suggest that. I get your point about the money, but if Smith has run the spread option, it’s absolutely relevant because that offense is why he was drafted first overall. It’s obvious that offense is where he’s best.

          • GoBirds1

            Not sure how to translate your double negative in your statement about Foles. Or is that suppose to say Smith. Anyway, my point is you get a free look at Foles for a season while you address all the other needs and install CK’s new O and D. As for Smith, without a great running game, OL, and D he is worthless, and can we agree he is not the long term answer? Practically any NFL starting QB would make you competitive with all the other parts of the team playing at such a high level. I just don’t see the benefit of Alex Smith and I am confounded that Tim Mac is pounding the table to bring this guy here.

          • The Guru

            I’m repeating the same point over and over. Foles isn’t a fit for this offense. Short term or long term. Smith is a short term answer and considering he played in this offense well enough to make him the #1 pick in the draft, I think it’s worth a shot. Is he the long terms answer? Probably not. But I know Vick and Foles are not.

      • Run Eagles Run

        you’re the only liar in this case. please post a link to a comment where I state I’m a huge vick fan. I’m still not sure if you’re a troll or just a delusional idiot.

      • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

        The Eagles have been rebuilding since the 2009 debacle against the Cowboys. They never should have been in the 2009 or 2010 playoffs. Andy was an exceptional coach, he took terrible rebuilding teams into the playoffs even when the Eagles were not good enough to contend the conference championship came through phila.

        Andy should have never been fired……. The pundits in Phila know nothing about Football. Philly in 20 years haven’t had a game breaker except TO, and without a Game Breaker there are no chances for a NFL Championship. Now we have Djax and his talents in philly are negated.

        • The Guru

          And with that statement, “Andy should have never been fired” you will now be completely ignored for lack of credibility.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            The Fact Andy was hired in a manner of hours after separation from the Eagles verifies my sentiment. He had his choice of employers within 72 hours after philly cut ties. Reid was only the winningness coach in the history of the ball club.

          • The Guru

            No it verifies Andy is a good coach. But, if you hire an offensive line coach as a defensive coordinator and base an entire defense around the wide 9….and it collapses the way it did, you deserve to be fired.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            did the defense get better or worse after Juan was let go?

          • GoBirds1

            By that measure, he was also the losing-est. His winning percentage since 2005 is barely above .500. Please become a Chiefs fan.

        • GoBirds1

          You call the last 4 years rebuilding? I don’t think so. It was a series of desperate moves of grasping at straws that resulted in a colossal failure leaving a roster with limited talent. You can thank your ‘exceptional’ HC and Executive Vice President for leaving us with this wake of road kill. Wasn’t it Andy’s responsibility for player personnel, hence on his head for no game breakers. You are both confused and conflicted. Take your man love for AR to KC and be Chiefs fan.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Sure they were, the moment McNabb left Philly in 09 indicated rebuilding, the Eagles were starting an unproven Quarterback and the Next year they brought in a load of free agents. They just happen to qualify for the playoffs in 09. and 2010 won the division.

            You didn’t think in 09 & 10 they were built to contend, did you?

            Honestly what football fan expected Kevin Kolb to lead the Eagles to the playoffs in 2010? The Eagles were loosing McNabb and Westbrook? There was no evidence Kolb, could, would or will lead a team to the playoffs.

          • GoBirds1

            Signing a bunch of 30 something past their prime on the decline is not rebuilding. It is desperation to try to stay in the game. You are brutal and it is painful to read your nonsense.