10 Observations: An Eagles Slant To the Playoffs

NFL: Divisional Round-New Orleans Saints at Seattle Seahawks

The Eagles did not play this weekend, but like many of you, I spent 12-plus hours in front of the TV watching the divisional-round games. Keeping that in mind, here are 10 observations with an Eagles slant.

1. The four winning quarterbacks – Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick and Peyton Manning – completed, on average, 15.5 passes in their victories. And no quarterback threw for more than 230 yards. Wilson went 9-for-18 for 103 yards, completing just two passes in the second half. Brady went 13-for-25 for 198 yards; the 13 completions were his fewest ever in a playoff win he started/finished.




The talking heads like to remind us constantly that "it's a passing league." And in many ways, there's truth to that statement. All four teams still alive finished in the top eight in passing during the regular season, according to Football Outsiders. But it's also true that teams that can find different ways to win give themselves the best chance to advance in the postseason.

Sometimes, that means relying on defense and an explosive run game. Other times, it might mean winning the turnover battle and getting a big contribution from special teams.

And it could also mean explosive plays in the passing game. That just wasn't the case this weekend.

2. How do we view the Eagles differently after the weekend's games? My biggest takeaway is I still can't figure out why the Birds' run game laid an egg against the Saints. LeSean McCoy ran the ball 21 times for 77 yards (3.7 YPC) in that game. Marshawn Lynch, meanwhile, piled up 140 yards on 28 carries (5.0 YPC) against New Orleans. The Eagles had the best run game in the NFL during the regular season, but failed to notch a carry that gained more than 11 yards against the Saints. The tape showed that the offensive line did not play well, and the Saints won the majority of battles up front. But it's still tough to figure out why those things happened, given what we saw during the regular season.

Meanwhile, Nick Foles and the Eagles' passing game come out looking better than they did right after the Saints loss. I wrote afterwards that Foles left too many plays on the field - and I still believe that to be the case - but Wilson couldn't get anything going against the Saints' defense, which had been strong against the pass all season long.

3. You'll hear analysts all the time talk about "tight-window" or "stick" throws. The concept is simple: Some passes in the NFL require a certain amount of zip and precision to fit in between defenders. But you didn't really see a lot of those throws attempted by Foles in the Eagles' offense (especially compared to what we saw from the QBs over the weekend).

A couple theories here. One, Chip Kelly probably deserves credit for his offensive design and play-calling. The Eagles led the NFL with 80 pass plays of 20+ yards and 8.7 YPA, even though you didn't see a lot of those "stick" throws.

I also wonder how much of it comes down to Kelly's overall philosophy and what he's preaching to Foles. During one of his coaches' clinic speeches, Kelly said: "The job of the quarterback is simple. He has to let it happen and not make it happen." That comes down to two things: Avoiding turnovers and avoiding sacks. Foles was fantastic at the first and needs work with the second.

The most impressive part of Foles' season was that he avoided turnovers while still chucking it downfield. He had two interceptions on 317 attempts, but averaged a league-best 9.12 yards per attempt. According to Pro Football Focus, 17.4 percent of Foles' throws traveled 20 yards or more from the line of scrimmage. That's the highest percentage of any QB in the last two years. In other words, this offense took more shots downfield than any other in the NFL.

It's important to remember the 2013 version of Foles was not the finished product. Going forward, it will be fascinating to see if Kelly urges Foles to "grip and rip it" even more on those tight-window throws or if he's perfectly happy with the balance Foles struck in 2013. Stats won't tell the story. Matching last year's numbers will be difficult. But Foles has only started 17 games in his career. There should still be plenty of room for growth and development, especially considering the improvement we saw from Year 1 to Year 2.

4. Marshawn Lynch runs with violence. He seeks contact, runs through defenders and is one of the most difficult backs in the league to bring down. But I wonder how that will affect his longevity compared to someone like McCoy.

McCoy spoke this season about how he never really takes big hits, and having watched all of his carries this season, he's right. McCoy (314) and Lynch (301) were the only backs in the league to have more than 300 carries. McCoy played the second-most snaps in the NFL behind only Matt Forte.

He's only 25, while Lynch is 27. I'm curious about how long each guy can extend his peak years and how steep the dropoff will be for the two running backs down the road, given their vastly different running styles.

5. I wonder how interested the Eagles were in CB Keenan Lewis last offseason. Lewis was a free agent, along with Cary Williams and Bradley Fletcher. He fits the size requirement (6-0, 208) and is only 27. I was really impressed with Lewis - both on tape against the Eagles and on TV against the Seahawks. According to OverTheCap.com, he got considerably more guaranteed money ($10.3M) than Williams ($5.75M) and Fletcher ($2.35M).

The Eagles knew they wanted to replace both Nnamdi Asomugha and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie after last season. They got better-than-expected play out of Williams and Fletcher. But the guess here is they probably sniffed around Lewis as well.

6.  The "screaming at my TV" moment of the weekend came in the second quarter of the Patriots-Colts game. On fourth down, New England set up for a punt, but the snap flew over Ryan Allen's head. He ran back to the 2-yard-line, scooped up the football, fumbled and ended up taking a safety. The announcers criticized Allen for not falling on the ball at the 2 and giving his defense a chance for a stop.

Wrong.

The safety was essentially the best-case scenario for the Patriots. Bill Barnwell of Grantland went through the math earlier in the season. But if Allen had fallen on the ball, he would have given Indy an excellent chance of scoring a touchdown. Instead, the Colts got two points. It's true that they got the ball back, but still, they started their next drive at their own 28.

The biggest mistake Allen could have made there would have been to fall on the ball at the 2 and give the Colts' offense a chance to score.

7. Kelly often stresses process over results. Question him about a call after a game, and more often than not, he'll explain that he wouldn't change a thing if he had to do it all over again.

But it seemed on Sunday like Ron Rivera let the results of one decision affect another. In the beginning of the second quarter, the Panthers faced a 4th-and-goal from the 49ers' 1, down 6-0. They ran Cam Newton on a QB sneak, but he was stuffed, and the 49ers took over.

The ensuing sequence showed why that was still the right call. San Francisco went three-and-out, had to punt from its own end zone, and the Panthers ended up with great field position at the 49ers' 31-yard-line.

Later in the quarter, Carolina faced 4th-and-goal from the 49ers' 2. They were up 7-6 and instead decided to kick the field goal.

The bigger problem facing the Panthers was that they failed to score on seven tries from inside the San Francisco 7. That undoubtedly figured in to Rivera's decision. But I still think he should have trusted the process there and gone for it a second time.

8. Time for the Kapadia Outside The Box Idea Of the Week (who wants to sponsor this?). I see a future in which coaches combine responsibilities for some of their players. For example, after Aiken went down with an injury, Patriots kicker Stephen Gostkowski handled punting duties. On his first try from the New England 40, he booted a punt to the Colts' 7, pinning Indy inside its own 20. He later had a 52-yarder that gave the Colts' offense the ball at its own 12.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of special teams. But I've watched a fair share of NFL practices. I think there's plenty of time for a kicker to practice both kicking and punting. If teams could fine one player to handle both, it would save coaches an all-important roster spot - both on the 53 and on gameday.

The other position that could be combined with something else is long-snapper. If I'm a backup tight end or linebacker, I'm spending half-hour a day in the offseason on my long-snapping and going into camp in the spring talking up my versatility.

This is the NFL of the future, my friends. Just remember you heard it here first.

9. Steve Smith has long been one of my favorite receivers to watch. In the second quarter against San Francisco, he hauled in a 31-yard TD from Newton. 49ers cornerback Tarell Brown had good coverage, but the throw was perfect and Smith did a good job of not tipping his hand until the last minute:

I asked Billy Davis when he taught his defensive backs to turn around and find the ball in situations where they were face-guarding the intended receiver. He said they watched the receiver's eyes and his hands. If defensive backs turn back too early, they lose ground and give up separation. If they turn around too late, they risk a penalty or a reception.

Players often used the term "play through their hands." In other words, if you don't turn around in time, the key is to get your hands in between their's, which makes it difficult for them to hold on to the ball.

But Smith did a great job of making Brown's job difficult on the TD.

10. Did the disastrous sequence in the third quarter of the Panthers-49ers game remind anyone else of the possession that hurt the Eagles against the Saints?

Carolina was set up with a 2nd-and-10 from the 49ers' 29, down 20-10. They had put together an 11-play drive and were in field-goal range. But Newton took back-to-back sacks that lost a total of 16 yards.

A marathon drive turned up no points, and the Panthers were forced to punt.

For the Eagles, the disaster played out slightly differently. Brent Celek lost 8 yards on a screen before Foles took a sack. But still, it's situational football. You can't afford negative plays that take potential points off the board in that area of the field.

EXTRA POINTS

And we close out with some quick-hitters:

* I saw some people Tweet out this NFL.com article that said Andrew Luck played fantastic against the Patriots. That seemed odd considering he threw four interceptions. Luck was spectacular at times, but did a poor job of taking care of the football. Two factions have formed on Luck. One groups thinks he's overrated, while the other believes he's the next great thing. If I had to choose one, I'm in the latter. I think within the next two years we'll be talking about Luck as one of the top two or three quarterbacks in the league. He has the arm, the size and the athleticism. While his decision-making wasn't great Sunday, Luck only had nine INTs in 570 attempts during the regular season.

* If you're wondering why I didn't write much about the Broncos-Chargers game, it's because that was the snoozer of the weekend. San Diego made it interesting late, but for three-plus quarters, Denver was in full control. Overall, while I was entertained through much of the first three games, these matchups weren't especially close with an average margin of victory of 12.3 points. Based on Brian Burke's Excitement Index (hat tip to Derek Sarley of Iggles Blog), this was one of the least exciting divisional rounds in recent memory.

* Saints safety Rafael Bush put a big (illegal) hit on Percy Harvin Sunday. But did you notice the Saints' sideline didn't exactly seem disappointed in his actions?

* During the regular season, I usually Tweeted out announcer assignments for the Eagles each Tuesday. The one pairing that got the most positive feedback was Kevin Burkhardt and John Lynch of FOX. Cool story here on Burkhardt's rise to where he is now.

* What's with the Chevrolet commercial that rips the son for wanting to play "computer games" instead of going camping? I'm not a big fan of either activity. But if I'm choosing between Madden (on my old Sega Genesis, of course) and fighting off bugs/sleeping in a tent, I'm taking the former. Go ahead, call me a Mary. I don't mind.

* On that same topic, did you notice Earl Thomas bailing early when holding the kickoff so the ball wouldn't blow off the tee in the Seattle wind? I used to hate being that guy in backyard football. I always thought my buddy was going to kick my finger right off my hand.

* And finally, we need to find some way to include drawn holding calls and forced intentional groundings in individual pass-rusher stats. Sacks and QB hits don't tell the whole story. In the fourth quarter of the Saints-Seahawks game, defensive lineman Cliff Avril drew a holding call that took New Orleans from 2nd-and-4 to 2nd-and-14. It was a huge play, but he doesn't get credit for it in the box score.

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  • #7

    F Tom Brady

    • Andy124

      He’ll eventually be relegated in the history books as nothing more than the Nick Foles prequel.

      • Richard Colton

        said Grandfather to grandson – “before there was NickFOles, there was Tom Brady.”

        “Was he a three time superbowl champion too?”

        “No, he cheated. And his supermodel wife left him for Eagles all-pro OLB Kalil Mack.”

        • Andy124

          “Grandpa, I just googled Tom Brady. Why did he dress like such a douchea?”

          “Well little one, sometimes you really can judge a book by its cover.”

      • #7

        Yeah right

        • Bird of Prey

          You guys are killing me!

  • jay ray

    Nick’s trade stock is as high as it will ever be. Don’t blink, Howie.

  • TXEaglesFan

    I am not sure of the rules, but if the New England punter had managed to throw an incomplete forward pass in the area of an eligible receiver, even if it was 40 yards behind the LOS, wouldnt the Colts get the ball at the original LOS. That would have been best case scenario for NE. If the punter was trying to do that then good job by him to remember and coaches to instruct that.

    • sprawl

      There’s pretty much no way a ref doesn’t call you for IG at that point, regardless of whether you throw it at an eligible player’s feet.

      Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

      • Broadcasting Wisdom

        What if you hit an eligible player in his hands and he drops it? You’re saying that would be IG because it happened 40 yards behind LOS? I was livid Dierdorf for never correcting himself, even after they were stopped after the safety and it had clearly worked out much better for the Patriots to get the safety.

  • Token

    Play calling on those goal line situation was awful for Carolina. It was obvious they werent running it in.

    Wilson was dreadful. Kaep wasnt much better. And these are the two QBs everyone looks up to? These are the guys you all dream about at night? Im still trying to figure out why that is.

    Foles consistently outperforms both of them and people cant wait to tear him down play by play. Its a strange fan base. I guess Foles doesnt have the swagger factor.

    • jabostick

      Yeah, I’m surprised Wilson isn’t more polarizing. He gets the “he just wins” argument, but he looks terrible sometimes. Kaep too. Both have stellar D’s and running games to cover up their messes

      • anon

        Been saying Wilson if fraudulent. Their whole scheme on offense is terrible if you can stop the run. Lynch is a beast though.

        • Andy124

          Wilson doesn’t put up gaudy counting stats because they don’t ask him to throw very much. But when he does, he’s very efficient. He’s had a rating over a 100 in each of his first two season. That HAS to be a record.

          Agree that the D is the primary driving force behind their wins (same with Keap and Cam).

          • Token

            I ask you to watch more of their games. Anon is actually correct. That offense isnt pleasant to watch. When Lynch doesnt have it, they generally get bogged down overall. Tho I imagine its quite a security blanket having a D that wont allow much at all. Each snap on offense doesnt mean as much.

          • aub32

            You’re right, but if you are watching, then you know 124 has a point. Wilson isn’t asked to do much unless they are down late. Then he comes up strong in big moments. Also, they don’t really have much of a WR corp there. So why wouldn’t they run the ball.

        • BrickSquadMonopoly

          Wilson is no fraud. He has no weapons.

      • Token

        I see a fair bit of Wilson.

        He is one of the most overrated players in the NFL.

        Now with that statement im not saying hes a bad QB. Im saying the level people view him at, most were talking as if hes a MVP candidate, is way above his actual ability level.

        But I think hes better than Kaep. Kaep is just a poor thrower of the football. Poor decision maker. Typical rocket arm without much accuracy.

        I guess it bothers me when people pine for these guys without knowing what they are actually getting. Foles at his current level is at least as good of a option as either of them. Personally id take him over either. I dont want my QB running around. Seen enough of that crap in this town. I want the most accurate thrower.

      • aub32

        Kaep had no one to throw the ball to early this season. Since Crabtree has come back so has that offense. It’s amazing that people knock him for not destroying the best D in the NFL.

        • theycallmerob

          Vernon Davis and Boldin are adequate weapons, better than many other teams have, especially with an excellent OL and very, very good run game. Not to mention a defense that will typically get you a win if you score more than 17-20.
          His numbers were still very pedestrian. His legs and tattoos buy him much more favor

          • Andy124

            Upvote to cancel out the downvote. Maybe later I’ll run Keap’s numbers with and without Crabtree, just to add a factoid to the discussion.

          • theycallmerob

            I don’t get why people downvote with no explanation. Are they saying Davis and Boldin aren’t good? That SF didn’t have a good defense?

          • Andy124

            I downvote without explanation when I feel like it’s obvious. Somebody posts “Foles is teh sux” I’m probably going to click that down arrow and keep scrolling.

            I can only guess that somebody didn’t like your last sentence, but it’s not exactly obvious (to me).

          • theycallmerob

            eh. got the same treatment replying to Aub’s other post below, where he said “but he [Luck] also didn’t choke against one of the worst road teams historically.” I guess Foles’ choked somehow? and the Saints were really concerned with what other teams did decades before them?
            Aub usually has the decency to defend such ridiculousness. I’m just kind of mad Colton gets some stemware, and all I get are anonymous haters.

          • Andy124

            You missed the “rob’s jockstrap” post? There was one, I swear. Me? I get nuthin. I’m must be too nice or something.

          • theycallmerob

            ha, haven’t seen that thing in years

          • RIP illa

            Step your F’n game up Rob!!! Then you too can get an inanimate object of hate. Lol. Great post.

          • theycallmerob

            I want Rob’s Vase or Desk Lamp to start sippin’ on that haterade

          • Andy124

            I’ve got my fingers crossed for Andy’s Misplaced 3.

          • the missing 3

            I’m coming for you….p.s., folles is the sux. Worstest slow qb ever with dummy face.

          • Andy124

            You complete me.
            You.
            Complete.
            Me.

          • theycallmerob

            here’s some for you
            * Crabtree is the MVP; out-of-sight for a WR in breaking tackles and YAC (not due to Kaep). Also, Kaep was one of the worst on 3rd down without him http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1914786-the-49ers-can-ride-colin-kaepernick-and-michael-crabtree-to-super-bowl-xlviii
            * more crabtree love (from our girl ms. Fox!) http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10250880/nfl-playoffs-2013-michael-crabtree-difference

          • Andy124

            So it’s clear then. Keap sucks and all of his success in the passing game is due entirely to Crabtree’s studliness.

          • aub32

            I’d say his tattoos buy him an equal amount of hate. Also, Boldin is very very overrated right now in his career. He gets no separation. Not to mention, Davis spent quite a few games missing time. Frank Gore isn’t close to the RB Shady is, and pat of their success rushing, as a team, has to do with Kaep.

          • theycallmerob

            Kaep’s entire postseason fortunes, save for the GB game where Capers was blown away by the read option, are a product of his OL, Gore, Davis, and Crabtree. Go back and watch his games; there’s no way they beat the saints without Davis last year, and he stunk for most of this year too. GB dropping the pick in Lambeau is the only reason he even got to CAR

          • Explorer51

            You’re kidding about Boldin, right? From USA Today: After Boldin was held without a first-quarter catch, he proceeded to burnish his legacy with one of the best playoff showings of his 11-year career. The titanium-tough veteran responded with a game-high eight receptions for 136 yards to key San Francisco’s advancement to a third consecutive NFC Championship Game.

          • anon

            VD gets TDs — great for my fantasy team.

          • Andy124

            That’s one player we might not want to refer to by his initials.

          • theycallmerob

            unrelated, but Tommy has a good post up. and shah is pulling a classic, with a heavy side of logical fallacy mixed in. figured you could use a laugh

          • Andy124

            Dude is a de-facto troll. Whether trolling is his intent or not, his effect is identical. Completely derails any constructive, intelligent conversation. Those comments are a worse place due to his presence.

    • lewel

      Ugh. I get that we’re all excited about Foles’ potential, but marginalizing the talents of Kap and Wilson while doing so is just silly. I’d take either one in a heartbeat. Did they have phenomenal performances this weekend? Nope. And neither did Foles. Nick had a very forgettable 1st half. Props for brining them back in the end, but he’s not as good as you WANT him to be. Let’s see this play out before we make such definite statements like “consistently outperforming” top tier QBs.

      • evanphilly

        Let’s not forget that Kaep and Wilson have more exp. than Foles as well. People are so quick with the “what have you done lately” mentality that they don;t want to see a QB develop before shipping him off.

        • anon

          RW and Kap both had better “rookie” years than sophmore. Kap was a big part of that SB run. Think sophmore year is actually harder since teams have an offseason to game plan against you.

          • evanphilly

            no doubt, and if Foles drops back down to being a top 15 QB next year, people will call for his head. I think he can be a very good QB for this team but needs that time. No one wants to wait 4 years for a QB to truly develop anymore.

          • anon

            nah not if we’re winning. ppl get plenty of time to develop if they progress and don’t regress.

          • Andy124

            I can’t agree that sophmore years are more difficult than rookie years. Especially for QBs that play as actual rookies (vice Keap and Foles who really took over as 2nd year players).

            I’d say that on average, the amount of improvement from year 1 to year 2 would outweigh the defenses’ ability to catch up. This factor does play a role, I just think it plays less of a role than expected player progress.

            How this will apply to a Foles is a mystery to me since he’s already had 2 years in the league, but this will only be his second year in this scheme and first as the unquestioned starter from day 1.

          • Token

            Kaep had 7 starts last year. And they ran way more option last year. That was a big reason for the run they had. The Ravens decided to just hit the QB on those plays regardless, and it worked. The niners have pretty much abandoned that this year. Harbaugh wants to try to grow him as a passer.

          • bentheimmigrant

            Definitely props to Harbaugh for doing the right thing there. He knows you need a good passer to go with the physical tools he has.

          • anon

            We don’t run a lot of option plays? Agree with what you’re saying. I think option plays work RW is really good at running them for easy first downs. But agree better to try to get him to grow as a passer.

      • Token

        Do me a favor. Go look at Wilson and Kaeps game logs. Since I know you dont watch them, ill just have to go by stats here.

        If Foles’ typical games were like those two guys, he would have been run out of town already.

        I have to assume because their names are on ESPN all the time, people just assume they are great.

        Wilson and Kaep tried quite hard to lose. The difference is they have perfect situations. Top Ds. They can really not make a play all day and not have to worry about it. Because likely, their D isnt gonna let up much.

        Its the flashy athlete factor here. Its the same thing that made many of you love Vick, even tho he wasnt a good QB. People love seeing the QB run around, in this city anyway. You cant get enough of it. You know it fails, but you’re like a addict.

        Didnt help Cam. Kaep ran for 15 yards on 8 carries. Cam got the crap beat out of him.

        • lewel

          OK. I’ll go watch the Eagles game log and note Foles missing a number of big plays that could have changed the game. And you can continue to sit there and believe Kap/Wilson are all flash and no substance. Delusional much?

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Not delusional at all. His point is if you put Foles behind a defense and running game like SF, Sea, and Car have, then he’d be a super bowl champ. Similarly, if you put those QB’s in Philly, they would be lucky to get to the playoffs.

          • R. Colton’s Wine Glass

            You homers make such definitive statements it’s hilarious.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Yes, because had Foles gone 9-18 for 105 yards and no touchdowns, that would have won the Saints game for us? Wilson was bailed out by his running game and defense. Everyone talks about how they can make plays with their feet. Kaep averaged less than 2 yards per carry on 8 carries, and Wilson ran for 16 yards. Anyone who thinks having one of those QB’s would have gotten us any further than Foles did with the defense and O-Line performance is nuts. Oh yeah, Wilson took 3 sacks too.

          • R. Colton’s Wine Glass

            Yawn. You homers are all the same. Your arguments always involve comparing Foles to some other successful QB. Let’s just talk about Foles. Go re-watch the game and tell me it wouldn’t have played out differently had he made plays in the 1st half. Hard for our run game to take off if we aren’t keeping the D honest with big pass plays. Equally hard for the Saints to keep running the ball on us if they don’t have a decent lead.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            Well now that’s a hilarious argument, since the Saints run game was able to take off quite easily without making any big pass plays. Why don’t you go re-watch the tape (I was there so I don’t have to), and see how the Saints were playing two deep safeties on almost every play… yet we still couldn’t run against 6 and 7-man boxes.

          • R. Colton’s Wine Glass

            C’mon, man. The saints were able to run because we gave up a little to stop (or at least, contain) their passing attack. Or are you gonna tell me it was just a massive coincidence their #1 target was limited to 3 catches for less than 50 yards? The Eagles needed to score points for that strategy to work – and they didn’t. Not until it was too late. Watch.the.game.homer.

          • Broadcasting Wisdom

            You’re only supporting my argument further, my friend, that it’s not difficult for the run game to take off if the D is already playing conservatively with deep safeties, as the Saints D was. Our O-Line/TE/RB just didn’t execute, and that is why we didn’t score more points (though we still scored more than R. Wilson against that same D). And our D-Line and LBs likewise didn’t execute, which is why we ultimately lost the game.

            Of things to blame for that loss on a scale from 1 to Patrick Chung, Nick Foles was a 2.

          • Richard Colton

            * makes definitive statement ripping people for making definitive statements.

            Great for cabernet – but doesn’t do irony

          • theycallmerob

            it’s gotta be 7…..note the drowsy intro of “yawn”. whenever you laid facts on him, it was “zzzzzz”. I doubt there are too many sleep-deprived fans of yours out there, Senor Colton

          • Richard Colton

            all the wine makes them tired

          • GEAGLE

            Duh…no one else is THAT lame and in his mind actually thinks is being witty like 7…thought it was pretty obvious from day one

          • Andy124

            I don’t know man. I think I’m a lot wittier than I am. :)

          • Andy124

            #7 will eventually be relegated in the history books as nothing more than the R. Colton’s Wine Glass prequel.

          • Token

            Again, you dont see much of the other two guys. So its hard to really discuss it.

            On most other teams in the league, Wilson loses that game for his team Saturday.

          • anon

            True, but SEA has no WRs so not all his fault.

          • Tom w

            You twit foles completed more big plays as you call it than almost every other qb this season in only 11 games. Try again. Foles doesn’t turn it over and makes big plays w his arm! Two most important factors that consistently lead to winning — along w forcing turnovers and stopping big plays. You couldn’t be more wrong. And foles is doing w a lot less time under his belt

          • theedevilsadvocate

            very much flash is what all you running qb fans are all about you dont like boring pocket passer thats about it.

        • Andy124

          Just my opinion, but I’d say Cam Keap and Wilson are all already more advanced as NFL passers than Vick ever was. These are young guys who aren’t done developing yet.

          No doubt all three get more credit than they otherwise would due to the badass defenses they get to lean on, but they’re not useless in the passing game either. Wilson in particular has done great with the passing attempts he’s given.

          • Token

            I just dont know where thats coming from tho.

            Kaep isnt any better than Vick. Thats for certain. Maybe right on par. Rocket arm, crap accuracy. Bad decisions.

            Wilson is a better passer than Vick. His height will become a increasing problem.

            Cam is tough. Hes pretty near a Vick level passer. Can have awesome throws. And back it up with 5 bonehead ones.

            I dream about none of them being on my team. We have had that QB for what, over two decades now?

          • Andy124

            It comes from watching them, watching Vick, and looking at their career numbers.

            Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying these guys are better than Foles. I don’t think they are. I just think they’re better than you do.

          • GEAGLE

            I really respect Wilson, but I don’t see a Drew Brees type of player in his future….and let’s see how well him and kAp do, when they sign a big money extension and you take 20million worth of talent away from the rest of those two teams

          • anon

            Wonder if we’ll see guys take less money. RW’s gotta know he’s not bringing 20mm worth of production.

        • aub32

          They also played against top Ds this year. They didn’t have the privilage of putting up ridiculous numbers against the likes of the Raiders and Skins. Several of the games they struggled was because they played much better competition with less at their disposal.

          • theedevilsadvocate

            oh lord just admitt you dont like foles and cant accept the fact he is better than you first thought. you, big butt, number 7 and the rest… geez i never heard of a qb do so great but hated by people over their preference for a running qb… ill take foles who didnt have a great D and still performed great this season.

    • jay

      That’s CUZ they make plays. Have you been watching Kaep in the playoffs the last two Years. All he does is make plays when his team needs him too. By your logic Romo is the best quarterback in th league cuz all he does is put up numbers. Foles isn’t a playmaker hence why he is sitting at home. The eagles scored how many pts in the first half against the saints… 7? Foles is Alex Smith 2.0, and not even the athlete Smith is. Foles tore up sorry ass teams. Oakland, lions, bears, etc…. name one good team he beat and plays well against. Arizona maybe but they didn’t even make the playoffs. Winston, Mariotta 2015 for the birds.

      • jabostick

        Kaep threw an easy pick in the GB game that would’ve ended it (and it got dropped). He also threw a (tougher) pick-6 for Mikell and he dropped it.

        There’s way too much circumstance in football to give him that credit. If that weren’t the case, I’d throw the end of the Super Bowl back as argument against him ‘just making plays’. Not that simple though

        • Token

          Crazy how two just missed plays can change everything in this game.

      • Andy124

        The eagles scored how many pts in the first half against the saints… 7?
        You mean, one more than the Saints? How many did he score in the game? More than Keap put up? More than Wilson put up against the same D? 2.4 times what Cam put up?

        Quit trolling.

        • Token

          We have been through how the offense was in the 1st half.

          But Foles left the field with the lead.

          If he had either of those defenses we would have certainly won the game.

          • Andy124

            Yup. Still shocked how ineffective our run game was.

          • GEAGLE

            Yup…my number 1’disapointment from the saints game was our run game..it was the strength of the 2013 Eagles, and they didn’t show up…

            Can’t wait to see how much more this offense opens up in year two..l want to see some 22 personel..2TEs/2 RBs..
            ..
            Saints intricate screen packages come out of 22 personel and two back sets…

          • Andy124

            Wouldn’t mind some 31 here and there. Hold up 3 fingers damnit! He said he was going to. That lying basturd!

          • GEAGLE

            We played some 31 late in the season, it’s just the media didn’t pick up on it…which was the game at the end of the season that we started to send Desean in Ghost motion? Was that the Bears game? Whatever game that was when Desean started using Ghost Motion, we actually started that game with 3TEs on the field…it’s just That the media didn’t report it…..I think our offense this year was NOTHING but a foundation,,,Now that we will return the majority of our offense, I expect so much to be added to it…
            ..
            early in nthe season when everyone was talking about what a bust Casey was! I warned that we haven’t seen anything Yet of what he will eventually bring to this offense,,,his role expanded late in the season, but it’s still nothing compared to how I expect his role to expand next year
            ..,
            Don’t want to pay that. Dude 4mil, but i really believe we have seen I little of what his role will eventually be,,,

            I think we only saw about 20% of Chips eventual NFL offense, and I expect to see it open up a lot in year two

          • Richard Colton

            I can never get enough Ghost Motion in my life

          • Andy124

            Isn’t that what your bowels do after eating a ghost pepper?

          • anon

            Cant run if your line is getting abused.

          • GEAGLE

            If we are being honest, FOles didn’t have the best first half, but he EASILY outplayed his hall of fame counterpart who has a Lombardi trophy and a decades worth of more experience then the young rainmaker

          • anon

            How’s that they scored 3 more points in the second half. Is brady not a good qb anymore b/c he’s got a great run game. I think you have to also look at level of control of the offense. Those guys are responsible for much more pre-snap than foles, who just counts guys in the box. I think Foles will get there but it’s more than just stats.

      • theycallmerob

        man, you’re a whole new level of stupid

      • moesus

        We’re probably not going to be in a position to draft Mariota or Winston next year unless they (or us) have bad years, which I doubt.

        I’m not saying that I’d take Wilson over Foles but I’d like to see what he could do in Kelly’s system. Seattle’s WR corps is not very good.

        I don’t care for Kaepernick, he stares down his receivers too much and is terrible at going through his progressions. Luckily he has his legs to bail him out. Dude definitely has a cannon though.

    • GEAGLE

      Strange fan base? Let’s not sugar coat it, we are an ABSURD and CLUELESS fanbase…actually we are the worst type of fanbase, Dumb as hell, yet we actually think we are a knowledgable fanbase lol

      Cam in the clutch throws an INT directly into a defenders arm…FOles might hold on to the ball and take sacks, but he WONt do some dumb ish like that..
      ..
      luck threw what 7 INTs in two games?
      ..
      Russel Wilson and kAp should be winning SB’s with a top run game and top defense
      ….
      I can’t stand all these silly mobile Qbs…in Today’s NFL, QBs are super protected. All the protection QBs get, I don’t need our QB running around like a chicken with his head cut off, because he will eventually get ROCKED!

      Today’s pocket passers get all the protection in the world, so I’ll take a big, tall, pocket passer any day because in today’s NFL, that type of QB is least susceptible to injuries
      ..
      RGme isn’t even worth talking about anymore until he does something…Shannahan tried everything this year..even when they dummies down the throws he was asked to make,dude couldn’t consistently hit his friggin Check Down…until RGmcnabb does something, he doesn’t even deserve to be mentioned with FOles…
      ..
      The only other young QB I care how FOles measures up with is Luck…and FOles outplayed him all year, without having two offseasons as the guy and without getting 16 games of rookie experience in a healthy situation…but Andrew Luck is such a competitor blah blah blah…he brought his team back, blah blah blah…FOles brought HIS team back in the post season WITHOUT digging them into a hole earlier in the game!!!…FOles damn sure didnt trios game ending INTs like Cam newton who has 40 games of experience

      • Tom w

        Agree w this 10000 percent and up vote about fanbase a million.

      • aub32

        So Wilson and Kaep win double digit games as well as games in the post season and they are frauds? Luck had 7 INTs, but he also didn’t choke against one of the worst road teams historically. I’m not saying Foles isn’t a franchise guy. I am saying that you and token are being ridiculous by trying to discredit everyone else. Let’s take a look at Cam. Cam has done things as a passer that only HOF QBs have accomplished this far into his career. How about Luck? He has sone the same. Both of those players would kill to have the weapons, O line, and offensive coaching that Foles had this year. You and others refer to how Cam, Wilson, and Kaep are carried by their running games, but who had the best rushing attack in the league? How can you continue to call other fans ignorant when you don’t even try to account for anything other than QB and stats? Foles had a better O line than almost any team in the NFL. He played an easier schedule than the QBs that you are comparing him to. He had better weapons and a better run game than the others, which he didn’t contribute much to. Again I don’t say this to discredit Foles. He had an amazing year. However, he isn’t put in that roup because unlike Luck and Cam he did not enter the league with such a high pedigree. He did not take a team to the SB like Kaep. He didn’t have two seasons leading one of the best teams in football. Foles may prove to be better than them all. He also, may appear to be a one hit wonder once film gets out on him and this offense. One good year does not a franchise QB make. Ask Matt Cassel.

        • GEAGLE

          I respect Russel Wilson the most out of all the young QBs but FOles and Luck…but in reality, Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl with similar to what kAp and Wilson are working with..

          those are such STACKED teams man..
          Top defenses
          Top running games
          .
          Friggin Tremt Dilfer and Brad Johnson won SB with similar talent…I think FOles had a better year then Luck, but if luck was working with what Wilson and kAp are sorrounded with! I would expect Luck to win a SB…

          Seahawks and Niners significantly DWARF the 2013 eagles on terms of talent…once we have THAT type of talent, I don’t know about you, but I’ll be judging FOles on Suerbowl or BUST!!!

          Those teams are competing against Teams that have 20million more in Cap space tied up by the QB, and Those teams spent every penny of that extra 20million stacking their roster…I think there are about 20 NFL QBs who could be successful with that type of talent

          • aub32

            Foles doesn’t have a top running game? Doesn’t Foles have better talent on offense? I’d take the Eagles skill players over what the Seahawks have, or the 49ers, especially with Crabtree missing most of the season.
            ….
            Did Foles have an elite defense? No/ However, they did keep most of the teams under 21. They held the Saints in check early and gave Foles 2 TOs. What did he do with them? So I think you are being very unfair about Kaep, Luck, and Cam.

          • GEAGLE

            Uhhh, am I missing something, or did our Run game not just lay an egg against the saints? You damn sure can’t sit here and tell me that FOles got to enjoy the help of the running game And defense against the saints that Russel Wilson got yesterday…even you can’t argue with that….
            ….
            Sure we had a top running game this season, but it damn sure didn’t show up in the playoffs, and with THAT running game, FOles ONLY delivered a better year then any AB in the history of the game was ever able to accomplish with the same experience level, playing in a first year offense…kAp and Wilson are playing with a PROVEN playoff Defense and Run game that is showing up for them..we aren’t there yet! but I think we have the pieces to get there..

            All I ever heard was a BILLION times when people defended their fav QBs was: “this was his first year in a new offense, just wait til year two after he gets a full offseason of work as the number 1 guy”… Well why the hell does all of the sudden that not apply to FOles? Why isn’t he assumed to continue to grow and become a better QB like every other young QB who EVER had a good season? That applied to every one but FOles right?

            kids going up just continue making people eat their words and look clueless..He was a pretty good NFL QB this year, and next year he will be a better..how much better is the ONLY question

          • anon

            You sound like a skins fan last year.

          • anon

            Think they do a better job a acquiring and teaching up talent. People are jealous of our offense b/c we have CK, people are jealous of the SEA secondary b/c of Pete Carroll, both great coaches.

        • bill

          By any meaningful measure, the 49ers oline was better than the Eagles. Some of those “in-depth” sites had the Eagles’ oline as among the bottom third in pass protection; I don’t agree, but let’s not go into fantasy land and proclaim the Eagles’ oline as easily the best in the league. They were solidly middle of the pack, with more than their share of issues, especially on the right side.
          And if you watched any football this past weekend, you’d know that Seattle’s oline absolutely outplayed the Eagles’ oline against the Saints, and Lynch outplayed Shady. Wilson was flat out awful in that game, and got his best receiver drilled not once, but twice because he couldn’t even attempt to look off the safety. He stared down his primary receiver on every single play where he stayed in the pocket. His team was up 13-0 with RW’s stat line of: 5-6, 28 yards. Talk about low risk, captain check-down gameplan. Foles critics would be hopping up and down and screaming about a sub 5 yards per attempt performance like that.
          Kap had a decent game this weekend, but was pretty worthless for the first half. Of course, most Foles critics will say he lost the game with his unproductive first half, but Kap gets credit for “weathering a tough first half to produce in the 2nd.” And he absolutely is lucky that he didn’t throw a game losing pick against an awful GB defense last weekend, after missing badly on several wide open receivers in the 2nd half. And all this with what I consider to be a superior cast of offensive talent, to say nothing of the grand canyon style gulf between the Eagles’ and the 49ers’ D (Foles’s 24 points would have won the game with the 49ers’ D).
          It’s important to point out the double standard that exists. Foles has proven nothing in the NFL. But then, by any reality based evaluation, neither has Kap, Wilson, or Newton. They all have massive flaws that have been covered up by other things. It’s really funny the lengths people will go to build up these young mobile QBs while sticking their fingers in their ears, yelling “Naa, Naa, Naa” every time legitimate critiques are made of them. I don’t need to be a Foles fanatic (and I’m not – I have a sneaking suspicion that Barkley ends up replacing Foles in the end) to recognize that these young mobile QBs are not all that their hype machines have made them out to be.

          • aub32

            As far as Kaep, he played against a much better D than what Foles faced in the Saints. So though he struggled early, he did mount a very nice drive to give his team the lead before the half, and he did not need injuries to the opposing secondary to control the second half.
            ….
            Our O line lost to the Saints. There’s no denying that. However, Foles didn’t do much when given time. I am not saying that means Foles is so much worse than Wilson. I just don’t think that fans can say Wison is crap because he relied on the run game. Our whole season was made thanks to the run game.

          • Andy124

            I disagree particularly with your last sentence. I think it was a much more symbiotic relationship. Everything working together lead to success, vice one element carrying another.

        • theycallmerob

          but he also didn’t choke against one of the worst road teams historically.

          there was no choke. and history has little to do with football

          • aub32

            Choke was a bit of hyperbole. However, history matters when it’s as recent as the Saints being destroyed by the Rams only weeks ago.

        • RIP illa

          Just wondering…did you drop the mic after that post??? You should have!!!

        • GEAGLE

          Last I checked FOles had a better winning percentage this year then any of them….if you think FOles played better then those guys who people prop up because of name value, is it really tearing those other guys? People are comparing and contrasting young QBs..not everyone can get a gold metal…you have to think someone is a better player, but in reality there are far worst things then the eagles having any of those guys at QB, but fot my personal taste, Luck is the only one i would rathe have

          • aub32

            Foles also played a much easier schedule. Do you think we would have won 10 games if we were in the NCFW?

          • moesus

            We get them next year, so we’ll find out a little bit. At least Seattle comes to us. I think the Rams are going to continue to improve as well. It looks rough on paper but who knows what will happen between now and then,

    • EaglePete

      Kaep is the real deal and Wilson is playing within that team. I just think Kaep at his age, with that arm, size and running ability still has many years to work on his reads. How can anyone not think that guy is good? But, ya both have great defenses so it kind of helps.

      • Token

        I dont see it. Kaep just isnt a very good passing QB. At least now. Maybe he improves. But its not often that runners improve drastically as passers. It happens. But not all that much.

        • aub32

          How is he not a passer? Just because the guy can run doesn’t mean he’s not a passer. I can’t wait until he wins the SB so that this myth that you need an unatletic type QB gets laid to rest.

          • Token

            I watch him pass?

            Hes not a accurate thrower of the football. Makes bad decisions too.

  • anon

    On point 8 the problem with consolidation is that if one gets hurt you’re totally screwed. But i do wonder if Donnie can kick field goals.

    On point 6 i’d rather down the ball. If indy scored on the free kick (it was a good free kick) that’s a 9 point swing without NE ever seeing the ball.

    On Luck, i think we discuss a lot about him and his TOs, RWs play as we try to evaluate Foles. I think Foles is better than RW, but i think Luck has way more on his shoulders.

    I was jealous watching lynch run — we do need a back that can run downhill. Look how NE is winning games. That said we don’t have the back or the line to play that way really. But the teams that are left all have that element to their game.

    • evanphilly

      Chris Polk is that downhill runner. Hopefully he gets more of a look in short yardage situations next year.

      • anon

        CK loves shady i don’t think anyone else saw snaps against NOLA. Wish BB was that downhill guy, i really like him a lot.

    • GEAGLE

      Doubt any young QB has to make more decisions at the LOS then what Chip asks of FOles. Doubt luck is getting as many packaged plays as FOles, having to read the defense and pick the right play as often as Nick…for a young Qb he has a high volume of decision making on his shoulders, and how he handled it, usually picking the right play and making the right read is why Chip loves Nick so much

  • evanphilly

    With the clock winding down on Brady and Manning’s career (in March, Peyton has to take a mandatory MRI on his neck), Luck is poised to rule the AFC. I love watching this kid play and he is fearless in throwing the ball down-field as well (a trait I hope Foles picks up. I can live with a few more INTs if it means more TDS). Add another WR (to pair with Hilton and eventually replace Wayne) and a decent RB, and this team will be golden.

    Would love to see a hybrid K/P on a team, wouldn’t be surprised if Chip goes that route. But the danger is him going down with injury, then you would be between a rock and a hard place. I also think a few people on the team should learn LS skills as well. Job security, people!

    If I had to choose between Lynch or Shady having the longer career, I’ll take the guy who has the best conditioning program in the NFL in front of him and who is known for his juking and jiving, not running over people. Lynch may go the way of Shaun Alexander, who was a tank (peaked at 28), but after that, time caught up with him fast.

    • GEAGLE

      Absolutely…both Gore and BEASTMODE can’t possibly have half of what shady has left in the tank..

      Why did my boy say Andy needs to wear a flavor flav clock around his neck while he is coaching? Hahahahahahaha

      • anon

        True, but who would you take on 3 and 1?

        • Andy124

          Bryce Brown.

  • dave H

    i also noticed earl’s quick fingers .. but everyone in Phila would take him!
    ..
    its impossible to see him and not try to assign a numeric value to him on Andy’s mistakes list. ugh. we can only WISH

  • JofreyRice

    Great point, about the “window throws”. I think the lack of those kinds of throws is what’s making me reluctant about Foles. However, as we saw with Luck, and have seen with other really good QBs in the past, sometimes you are going to turn the ball over, trying to fit it in there for a big play.

    What struck me, watching Terron Armstead play a fantastic game against Seattle’s passrushers, was that my mind hasn’t changed since right after the draft: Vaccaro & Armstead > L. Johnson and Wolff. Sorry. And, although Harvin’s impact has been minimal, you have to tip your hat to Seattle for bringing in Bennett/Avril. You can add impact players in FA.

    I thought the official word was that Keenan Lewis to the Saints was a foregone conclusion, because it was his hometown team. I understood, at one point, that the Eagles had pursued him, but that the sway of playing for the Saints tipped the scales. Obv, he’s a much better player than Cary Williams, but if the guy doesn’t want to play for the club, what can you do? The turnaround of the franchise makes the Eagles a much more attractive place to sign this offseason.

    • bentheimmigrant

      Considering Foles’ completion percentage, he clearly didn’t need to make many of those throws to function in the offence. I suspect that if the reporters ask Kelly about it, he’ll ask them why he would want to design plays that forced those throws onto the QB.

      Plus, there were definitely a couple times, particularly in the endzone, where Foles was placing the ball perfectly.

      • JofreyRice

        Yeah, I mean, if you can go through a whole game without having to make those throws, that’s all the better.

        It seems like Kelly definitely did a great job in designing the plays and explaining the reads to Foles. As with just about everywhere else on the team, Kelly looks to be an excellent communicator of ideas. But you have to admit if that truly is the case, then the reluctance to jump on the Foles bandwagon with both feet is somewhat understandable.

        I’m at the point where I realize Foles performance means he’s definitely our QB, I just want to see more.

        • Andy124

          I want to see more too… I love watching him play. :)

        • bentheimmigrant

          Oh, I totally understand the hesitance. A QB has to constantly improve. We can’t know if Foles is up to that until we see him do it for years. I hope he can, and I think he’s got a great starting point. I don’t buy the line that Kelly protected him, which I’ve seen trotted out occasionally. Considering the number of deep throws and the times when he did put it into a tight window (see: pretty much all of his shorter passes to the back of the endzone), I’m happy to believe that it wasn’t smoke and mirrors.

        • Token

          Foles did show he can make those throws I feel. Often, no…. but I think he can make the throws.

          Im looking at next year. Teams have the tape. Shaping up to play some pretty tough teams. And lets face it, as a team we struggled against the good teams this year.

          I want to see the guy improve. I dont doubt his arm. I think its fine. Not a McNabb or Vick level rocket, but not many are.

          I want to see him hitting next year on plays he missed this year. Seeing the defense better. Feeling confident enough in what he sees that he can make those tighter throws. Throw guys open. I feel that can certainly be improved.

          I just get the feeling hes not always confident in what hes seeing out there. Thats the hesitancy in his game. If hes going to be very good, that will improve.

          I think when Foles first got here his pocket awareness was a big strength. I saw a kid making little moves in the pocket, stepping up. Thats a great sign. I felt he wasnt as good this year with that all the time. I expect it to get better as the game slows down.

          I doubt many will agree with this…. but I think the offense got a slight bit out of control as the year went on. Id like to see more efficent plays. More of those 5 yard routes. Quicker stuff. Keep that tempo flowing. I like the long strikes, but I feel it could be toned down some. Id rather have less 3 and outs. More sustained drives that break down the defense.

          • JofreyRice

            Yeah, love him or hate him, Phillp Rivers really has a feel for throwing guys open. So does Peyton, but I think in that particular aspect, Rivers is a little better. I’d love to see Nick add more of that to his game. Get him more help, too. I love defense, but keep bolstering the offensive side of the ball.

            I’m also excited to see him use the tempo surgically, the way Brady does, now that he’s more experienced in it. Brady will just flash through a series of plays, when he knows he’s got you on your heels, while other times, he’ll slow-play it, relatively.

          • Maggie

            I agree the offense seemed to become stale in the last dew games. Second season under Kelly there undoubtedly will be more sustained drives and fewer long downfield pass attempts a la Reid.

      • theycallmerob

        Very well said. big difference between “can he?” and “does he have to?”. He definitely stuck a few in there when necessary (I remember a few lasers in the last DAL game). Also, tremendous overall in the red zone. I know someone, somewhere broke down his individual stats, but I can’t find it; overall, PHI qb’s had almost a 100 rating last year in the RZ

        http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-rating-in-red-zone/2013/

    • Richard Colton

      You know how much I liked Armstead’s physicality pre-draft. I think every one of my wish lists that had Dion Jordon at 4 had us taking either him or Long with pick #2. That said, Terron has played 2 good games. One of them happened to be on a national stage. I’m still not 100% sold. The other thing is the draft itself. No guarantee that he was going to make to round 3. Hell, Im surprised he wasn’t drafted ahead of Menelik Watson.

      When you pick at #4 – it needs to be a star player and fill a need. You and Token have been arguing that in the changing NFL – a safety can be that player. I’ve always disagreed, but after watching Seattle’s DBs this year, my position is softening.

      • GEAGLE

        We liked Armstead…I think there is a great chance we would have went after him had we gotten Dion in round 1…

        All this Armstead is greater then Lane is BS…it might matter to fans, but NO coaches and Front office people give a crap about which draft picks play better as rookies. That not how draft picks are realistically judged…and certain Raw Draft picks are made with the assumption that it will take a few years for the pick to rally pay off…

        Armstead also hasn’t played 16 games, which mean he hasn’t had as much time to have his Warts exposed..what did he play, 4 games? If you take lanes best 4 games and you compare them with Armsteads, probably not much of a discrepancy…Armstead also got to play next to a probowl guard…
        ..
        Fans can continue to trash Lane all they want, but it’s silly because they will be swinging from his Jock talking about what a grand slam he was, 3 years from now…but I do know that we did have Armstead on our wish list had we taken Dion which was the plan…

        Don’t get the fans need to crap on Rookies. Comparing them after a rookie season is pointless..but I do expect BOTH Lane and Armstead to have better careers then Joekel and Fisher(sorry mike Kaye! but your scouting is a joke lol)

        • Richard Colton

          slow down…nobody is saying he’s better than Lane. Silly at this point based on his body of work. But let’s look at JRs hypothetical. Lane and Wolff vs. Vaccaro and Armstead. Strikes me as even.

          • GEAGLE

            What is the point in comparing a 5th round rookie safety who played half the season, with a safety drafted in the top 25? I would HOPE Vaccaro played better then Wolff
            ..
            There is LITERALLY nothing LANE can’t do as an OT, NOTHING! so give the kid the time he needs to grow into a BRILLIANT draft pick…now if lanes dad groomed him to be an OT since he was 5 years old like Joekel, then I would be having SERIOUS issues with lanes rookie play

          • Token

            Hes comparing the hypothetical scenario…..o nevermind

          • GEAGLE

            Compare the 15’player chosen with a safety drafted over 100 spots later?
            .,.
            personally I think a teams 1st and 2nd round pick SHOULD be BETTER then a teams 1st and 5th round pick…
            ,..
            Now if you want to compare Lane/Ertz with Vaccaro/Armstead, that would make more sense to me

          • Richard Colton

            yeah, if we’re strictly talking draft value I agree. Although it would be Lane/Logan & Vaccaro/Terron

          • JofreyRice

            haha, well if we’re going into that level of depth, I would have signed Pot Roast Knighton instead of Sopoaga. Check the posts, I was advocating this!

          • Richard Colton

            just had to google it. For the record, I am 1000% in favor of signing anyone with the nickname “Pot Roast”

          • JofreyRice

            Exactly. Great nickname, and a Temple alum, to boot.

          • GEAGLE

            Would have loved him…pretty sure he had a better year then RJF who we targeted instead of him…

          • theycallmerob

            Pot Roast was a favorite of mine as well.
            A few things happened around the Soap signing that may me more optimistic at the time. First, he came over with Gamble, so I assumed Gamble knew his abilities and figured he’d get us at least 1, maybe 2 years as a transitional/glue guy. Second, many of us thought we’d be playing more of a 43 under; the immediate shift to 2gap left him as our only true NT. Logan filled in admirably, which allowed us to move him and get some value in return. But I can’t get too upset unless I’m wearing my stunner hindsight shades.
            And as Geags said, very happy we didn’t get RJF

          • GEAGLE

            Yeah coming over with Gamble is what made me feel a lot better about him. He also actually played pretty well from them during ther Super Bowl run last year..

            I actually Love the way it worked out. Signing Soap, let our Young Dlinemen get exposed to how a real veteran who has sustained his NFL career prepares and carries himself in the meeting room…ATleast Cox had someone like Cullen..I think Soap was probably real good for Logan! ATleast that how Logan always made it sound..and we were so under the cap that it doesn’t hurt..we are picking later in every round then we expected this year so I like that we have two 5th rounders..then again, I probably wouldn’t be this jovial if the pats didn’t take him off our hands….

            Obviously it would have been nice to add a guy like Potroast who will actually contribute to our cause for a few years, but thanks to those dirty pats, No harm,No foul, we get a mulligan to go for shopping for BEEF again this offseason

          • Richard Colton

            Unicorns…show ponies…where’s the BEEF?

          • GEAGLE

            Hopefully some HAGEMEN Beef is on the way, wouldn’t mind some tasty Samoan Beef….last years batch of Beef(soap) had mad cows disease, fortunately Dr. Howie was able to treat it, and we will have learned a thing or two that will help us choose our beef better this offseason….we got a pretty darn good deal on the young Beef…but we need to chose our veteran beef better this year

          • JofreyRice

            I’m talking about two players they added to the roster to improve the football team. I think the two guys the Saints added are going to contribute more. That doesn’t mean I’m launching a personal attack on the guys the Eagles drafted. It’s not a terribly nuanced argument, yet you seem to be missing the point.

          • GEAGLE

            See above post, not trying to be confrontational mate..you should get my tone by now

        • Andy124

          Anthony Munoz will eventually be relegated in the history books as nothing more than the Lane Johnson prequel.

          • GEAGLE

            God i love that dude..one of the meanest “punchers” in the history of the game…That dude needs to be an Oline coach

          • bentheimmigrant

            I fully expect this to be your new post format from now on.

          • Andy124

            bentheimmigrant will eventually be relegated in the history books as nothng more than the benthenative prequel.

          • theycallmerob

            *benthenaturalizedcitizen

        • anon

          I don’t think anyone’s crapping on him, just wondering if the FO get the best value at the draft position. That said i don’t think there’s anyone at 4 who would have been irreplaceable by someone later in the draft. After last year we needed line help, LJ fits the scheme and seems to gel well with our other OL personnel so i think it’s fine.

    • Token

      Yea wanted Lewis too. But your right he wanted to go home.

      And the second paragraph is right on too. Just going by the 1st picks. Vaccaro without a doubt in my mind would have had a bigger overall impact on the team than LJ.

      I do wonder if the common knowledge thinking that taking all these tackles in the 1st round will start to change. I think its a outdated thought.

      But you watch Seattle, man o man do those safeties make an impact. Wow. Ill take that over a RT. Especially when there are so few really good safeties.

      A 2-5th round tackle has just as much chance of becoming very good as a #4 pick does IMO. You need a good coach at that position. Looking for a specific body type and set of skills to mold. I continue to say they arent as high of a impact position as many think.

      • JofreyRice

        I mean, I thought Lane was solid. He’s not a horrible pick, like Danny Watkins or something. He improved throughout the year and looks like he’ll be a productive player for the offense. But I, like you, just don’t see the value in it. I thought it was idiotic that KC picked Eric Fisher #1 when they had Albert manning LT very capably, for them.

        And I don’t hate Wolff, either. I think Chung’s incompetence is overselling his value a bit, but I thought he handled himself pretty well for a rookie playing one of the toughest positions to step into as a pro.

        The bottom line, for me, is even if Lane ends up better than Armstead is he going to be 70 odd picks better? Hard to say that, but I don’t think so. The Saints told you how highly they rate Vaccaro. The guy was moved all over the scheme and deployed when they needed big plays. And he delivered. I think that combo is just going to end up affecting more on their side of the ball.

        • Andy124

          But weren’t there significant questions about his coverage ability leading up to the draft? He’s panned out great, but I don’t think it was a sure thing it would play out that way.

          • JofreyRice

            Not for me, but I don’t think that was an issue with anyone else, either. He covered Tavon Austin one on one and did a fantastic job. I don’t know what else he could have done–that guy was the hardest cover in the nation.

          • theycallmerob

            Two other factors go into the Lane and Vaccaro discussion, IMO:

            (1) NO defense is set up to accomodate a guy like Vaccaro. I think Lewis is a better CB than any of ours, and they also had a far better pass rush than ours overall this year (particularly Jordan and Gallette). Hence their unbelievable turnaround in defense from ’12 to ’13, and being right near the top in DVOA and yards. Vaccaro’s transition was much, much easier than it would have been in our scheme. I also think Rex Rob Ryan is a very good DCoordinator, and that helped his development a ton. I’m not trying to take too much away from Vaccaro’s own strengths, I just think they were catered to from the get go on that defense. Not sure it would have been nearly an ideal situation here, nor would he have looked as good.

            (2) LJ also filled a much, much bigger need for us. We may have only gotten him in the first place because Dion was gone (say what you want about him), but LJis the exact specimen of tackle that Chip needs for this offense. Armstead had way more experience at the position and is in a pass-first offense, and had the benefit of playing next to an all-pro guard (while Herremans struggles often hurt LJ as well). I’m not saying he couldn’t succeed here, but if the Eagles had risked waiting that long for an OT they may not have gotten one at all. Who’s to say where our offense would have been if Herremans or Barbre played RT all year.

            I agree that NO nailed those 2 picks, but they also only had 5 to work with and a much better situation inherited (Payton and Brees coming back, the two most important positions). IMO, we had great picks in rounds 1-5. Now that we have our coach and QB as well, I expect big things from this draft.

          • Richard Colton

            Agree. I’m not huge on the “X is a great player, but you could have had Y” argument. Did you draft a pro bowl player at #4? Great pick. Solid player at #4? ehhh. Bust? Pack your bags.

            The Rockets could have had someone better with the first overall pick in ’84, but I’ll never rip them for taking Hakeem Olajuwon.

          • JofreyRice

            You make a good point about the overall impact in the first year–Ryan knew what he had in Vaccaro, and maximized his impact. However, I really liked Vaccaro’s traits before I even knew where he’d fit, so for me, the overall quality of the player is more important than what kind of numbers he put up for the Saints D. That piece of it was more vindication than proof his quality as a defender. I think Vaccaro would have had a good year in many places he landed, but going to a very good coordinator, in a good scheme, that realizes his worth put him in the best position to succeed.

            I agree we needed an athletic tackle. I think Armstead could have filled that role at about the same level as Lane, and we could have gotten him later. I was pretty adamant about not taking a T in the top 5 when they did it, so I don’t think my opinion should shock anyone.

          • theycallmerob

            It doesn’t shock me. I liked Armstead as well. But we absolutely needed a T, and a guy who was going to start from day 1. You can’t hedge your bets that the 1 or 2 guys who fit that description in the later rounds (particularly for such a specialized offense) will still be there.
            The fact that the Saints didn’t start this “unbelievable” specimen, as some might be prone to describe him after 4 career starts, from day 1 is clear that they took him BPA and from a more developmental standpoint. LJ didn’t step in at a pro-bowl level, but for a guy playing the position two years to come in and play at the level he did is impressive enough, at least for me.

            Not drafting Dion may have been the blessing in disguise of that whole draft

          • JofreyRice

            I think there’s a lot to like about Lane Johnson’s game. Amazing athlete for his size, unique perspective on the game as a former QB and TE. Seemed to improve a lot in the second half of the season. Less “up and down” and more “up”. The arrow is pointing in the right direction.

            I thought most of us were “OK” with Herremans as the RT. They had really just signed him for that role before the ’12 season, right? For all I know, Kelly prioritized getting an elite athlete at T the day he walked into the facility–and Herremans decline has shown that to be a wise choice–but I don’t remember people here screaming for a T that could start right away with the #1 pick. We all knew Watkins was a miserable failure, but I feel like more of us envisioned an upgrade at RG, rather than a draft and swap.

          • theycallmerob

            Coming off injury, I think it would have been a lot to ask for him to start at RT. And anything spent on a another G before round 5 would have had pitchforks at Howie’s door before the season started. No one saw Barbre coming, and I didn’t trust Donkey Kong Kelly to start. For where we were drafting, I was ok with LJ, moreso than I would have been with Fisher or Joekel

          • Richard Colton

            As I recall, you were high on Sheldon Richardson at #4 as well as Vaccaro. I wouldn’t have taken Vaccaro that high. Still probably wouldn’t.

            Just as a fun what-if…What if we had gone Richardson 1st, Kiko Alonzo 3rd, Honey Badger 4th?

          • theycallmerob

            where would Richardson play? and who would Kiko replace?

          • anon

            Kiko & Meco at ILB.

          • Andy124

            Kendriks at safety. Everybody’s happy!

          • Richard Colton

            Sheldon at DE. Kiko would be an upgrade at either ILB – not a knock on Kendricks or Meco, I like them both. I think Kiko has future defensive MVP written all over him. At the very least, he provides enough depth at ILB, no one would mind cutting caseymatthews.

          • JofreyRice

            Oh yeah, loved Richardson. Fantastic athlete. I think he’s another former running back. Kind of a similar situation to Vaccaro, in a position to make a huge impact because of the guy at the controls.

            All you had to do was watch Richardson against Alabama, to be convinced the dude was a baller.

            Ah, man, your scenario would be awesome. I really think they were committed to beginning the construction of Kelly’s offense, though.

          • anon

            Letting Kiko go really surprised me considering he came from Oregon and he’s a beast — but we have a MLB and didn’t have a NT — i guess they were drafting for need.

          • twatkins

            Kiko went in the second not third … we took ertz in the second logan in the third

          • GEAGLE

            Vaccaro was a much more finished product. Lane was drafted as a raw kid we would have to be patient with.

          • JofreyRice

            Lane had some ups and downs, but overall, I’d say he was less raw than I would have thought. He’s got a high ceiling, sure, but his floor proved to be pretty solid. as well.

          • GEAGLE

            Same!! I actually expected him to have to take even more lumps then he did this year, that’s why I’m so high on him. As rough as some of the season was for him, I expected worse

          • Andy124

            Rob Ryan.

          • theycallmerob

            thanks

          • Andy124

            Rex Ryan is a great DC too. Maybe not so much as an HC.

          • anon

            No QB, yet still went 8-8 crushing the saint and the pats? In a year when everyone predicted 0 wins? Players played for him all year despite it was almost certain that he was getting fired (see Eagles giving up on Andy last year). Think he’s a pretty good HC that needs a QB.

          • Andy124

            You make a good argument.
            On the flip side, offenses seem to wither and die under his reign, much like his father.

          • anon

            Very true.

        • Token

          Maybe they get Byrd and it works out just fine.

          But ill take the stud safety over the high pick tackle every time personally.

          I think you put it just right. If Lane turns out to be great. If hes a top 5 tackle. Is his impact on the team that much more than a Armstead(or whoever) if they are only a top 15-20 tackle? I just dont think so. I dont think its worth it.

          Peters is great right? Did it matter? Did Joe Thomas transform the Browns?

          Really hope the Eagles stop taking that position lightly. Byrd would of likely had a impact in the game vs the Saints.

          • GEAGLE

            Joeffry: You make valid points, but crapping on KC for drafting an OT is short sited, especially considering ALbert won’t be a Cheif next year and KC has been having issues with his agent for years. I crap on KC for the OT they chose, not for choosing an OT…if you trust your coaches player development skills, then drafting Joekel and Fisher, when it didn’t take an expert to know that Armstead and Lane had a significantly higher ceiling was a mistake. I Genuinly have no idea how you can draft Fishier instead of Lane who dwarfed him in terms of potential…
            ….
            I heard we really liked Armstead, and considering Dion would be an eagle of Miami didn’t trade up! there was probably a good chance of us seriously targeting Armstead…but you can’t just over draft a kid like that…Even if your player evaluation is right and every other team is wrong, you still have to play the board or you look like the idiot Dallas Cowboys drafting a center they could have gotten 3 rounds later. the kid didn’t play bad, but it can’t be deemed a good pick when you could have added 3 talented players and then still got him…

            Now I like Vaccaro and Armstead a lot, always did…but I think 3 years from now, when we see the eventual players Lane,Ertx and logan become, I doubt we will be looking back at this draft like 2011 wondering what if we would have drafted so and so…

            Even a skeptical dude like you has to be giddy thinking of Ertz future…I refused to even discuss or watch Film of Ertz this time last year because I thought there was no shot n hell that he would fall out of round 1, so I thought we had ZERO shot at drafting him…You have to admit that if Lane,Ertz and Logan fill their full potential, this will be an A+ draft….Considering our coaches seem like they can develop the hell out of young players, and all 3 of those kids are high Charecter kids who live for the game..I like the chances of all 3 realizing their potential..
            ..
            We can argue about whether Logan should be a N or DE, but I think it’s fair to think that he will be a valuable top 5 rotation guy with a chance at being a starter

            Lane showed more Raw ability then any OT in the history of the combine and no one even is a close second. IF THATS not a probowl ceiling I don’t what is…If his daddy had been grooming him to be an OT since the age of 5 like Luke Joekel, then I would be a little concerned with how he performed this year..

            Ertz…you have to see this kid run in person to really drool over his ceiling. TV doesn’t do him justice, Everyone who goes to Live Eagles games next year should get their early enough to just watch him run around in pre game warm ups…In August I worried about his hands, if we are being honest..but the catches he made all year completely eliminated all those concerns for me…he actually even improved as a Blocker. I think it’s fair to say he has potential to not be some incapable sissy wimp of a blocker like JImmy jam Graham..

            We can argue about what position Logan should play, but it think we both can agree that the Front of Cox,Ced and Logan player the run better in year one then even a Rosey optimist homer such as myself would have thought. If Logan an put on weight and get strong enough to continue to even be credible against the run, we can really screw with opponents by switching back in forth between all sorts of defensive fronts, which I believe to be the plan. If Logan can be credible against the run like he was this year and improve on it, he will provide more pass rush then 90% of his NFL NT counterparts…the kid was already chasing QBs around with those stretch Armstrong arms all year
            ,,,
            I like what we saw out of Wolff so early in his a career, but Kenny should and will be a better safety. However, 4 years from now, just how you think there probably won’t be a 70 spot difference between Lane and Armstead, I DOUBT there will be a 150 spot difference between Vaccarro and Wolff..Vaccarro can become a top safety! But you can’t say that Wolff doesn’t have a chance to be a Quality starting NFL safety, while a few of the safeties drafted I between Wolff and Kenny won’t even still be in the league…

            And if Barkley actually can grow into a guy who can have two good games like Kirk Cousin and We end up flipping him for better value, and if Kruger is actually good enough to be a rotation guy on a good NFL defense, then this draft really becomes a master piece…..nothing to do, but wait and see and hope these kids continue to progress.

        • anon

          Agree i wonder if they tried to trade back but couldn’t

        • Tom W

          Vaccaro is out for the year right? kid has injury concerns. that is pretty important for a safety.

          moreover you like vaccaro and armstead over lane and wolf .. well what kind of comparison is that?????? a first and third compared to a first and fifth??

          To get who you wanted we wouldve passed up on logan who I think showed he is good flexible nt-de in the 3-4. So if wolfe and logan turn into starters for 4-5 years and lane is a stud … that clearly outweighs a starter in armstead and a probowler in vaccaro (if he recovers).

          And most importantly .. Armstead hasn’t shown squat yet .. in 4 games he has given up 5 sacks … that is more than a sack a game … that’s horrible … and armstead sat on his ass for 14 games … isn’t it telling that Sean Payton didn’t think he was good enough to start for 14 weeks? Armstead played at little shit college x and was considered uber raw when he came out. Whose to say he couldve started and right tackle day one and instead we may have ended up w kelly or herramins and barbre at guard. Lane was ready day one as has played great. Wolfe was playing well before his injury. Throw in Kenny Stills … and we will see the outcome in a few years.

          • JofreyRice

            Injury concerns? Absurd. I think he missed one start in 4 years at Texas. It’s football. People get hurt, sometimes seriously.

            PFF has him at 4 games/4 sacks. 2 of them against Carolina–not exactly a piss poor defense, and 1 apiece against the Eagles and TB. Zilch in the playoff game. Lane Johnson, incidentally, gave up 4 in his first 4 games; albeit three of them in the disastrous KC game. To say he’s played “great” is a bit of reach. He’s been up and down, and improved late in the year.

            How many 3rd round OL step into LT, unless there is a major injury or the franchise is in the toilet at that position? None of the Chiefs, Jaguars or the Eagles asked their top picks to do it. Of course he was going to have to adjust, coming from a tiny college. That doesn’t mean he can’t put together a similar career arc to Johnson, at a much cheaper price.

      • Tom W

        Impact as a rookie maybe, but a future stud ltackle is way more valuable than a stud safety — its why they get paid so much and are considered a premium position. and dont tell me the left right thing is overrated … its not about where defenders are rushing from its bc the left side is a right handed qbs blind side.

        The eagles would have gotten destroyed if they took Vaccaro at 4 and that sounds like what you and joffrey wanted ….vaccaro wasn’t rated nearly as high as berry or thomas so for the eagles to take him there would have been silly. maybe if we traded back, but there were no takers ..chip said that in his press conference .. the taker was miami who jumped us.

    • cliff henny

      how many qbs are asked to make those window throws, and then out of that, how many are turnover machines? foles can throw into tight windows, at the goalline. seen plenty of it. bewteen the 20’s, think kelly want non of that. guess if foles becomes rodger manning brees or brady, sure. but think other qbs that can make window throws, like cutler romo stafford probably should stop trying.

      • GEAGLE

        The throw FOles made to Coop for a TD in the redzone against the Saints was as great of a thow as you will see in the playoffs

        • anon

          I guess at this point you just say whatever and hope some of it sticks.

      • JofreyRice

        You may be right, that Kelly discourages him from that kind of thing.

        I think Greg Cosell has referred to Foles as a “safe” passer–saying that he likes to really be sure of what he’s seeing before he pulls the trigger. I think Cosell is overstating it a bit–having seen Foles put up 50/50 balls a few times a game– but his job is literally breaking down tape and analyzing it, so it’s hard to dismiss his opinion without consideration.

        It’s always a balance between being overly aggressive and being too tentative. I don’t know the right answer. The numbers sure make it look like Foles and Kelly do, I’ll give you that.

        • GEAGLE

          Wouldn’t it be a safe assumption to think that once a young QB gains more and more experience, he should become better and quicker at diagnosing What the defense is doing? I dont think it’s that crazy to think that FOles will start to open up, take more chances as the game slows down for him and he is seeing defenses better and faster?…..he can’t possibly be seeing defenses as well and as fast as how he will after he has another 20 games under his belt,..and I don’t know about you, but I LOVE that as a young player he didn’t force anything…I don’t want him playing less “safe” until he has the seasoning and has improved enough to where he can open and up and take more shots, while continuing to not hurt his team with crucial turnovers…

          We see success, but in reality this kid isn’t even close to developing into the guy he should develop into. Considering history shows he is AHEAD of the curve, I can’t tell you he will be the next Peyton Manning, but I think what he showed is extremely promising and that he is 100% worth continuing to invest in developing him…Fastest way to have him reach his ceiling and provide us with the best QB he is ever capable of becoming is to play him and let him take his lumps…

          • JofreyRice

            Yes, I think that’s very safe to assume. I agree with you that they should be committed to him 100% and continue to help him with weapons and protection. Like I said in another post, I want to see him run the tempo the way Brady does, striking in an instant when he knows he’s got the D in a bad personnel grouping. I think that will come with experience.

            If I had my druthers, I’d use the offseason to get 1 big WR that wins contested balls, 1 WR/RB/RS player like D’AT or Dri Archer, or Dexter McCluster, and 1 developmental OL to bring along as depth behind Mathis/Herremans.

          • GEAGLE

            I think all those would be good additions..
            ….
            Chip has shown to be able to do some serious damage with those DAT:McCluster types. I think we absolutely have to increase the overall speed of our skill players. We need a blazing fast athlete like Cordarell Patterson to help Desean stretch the field vertically. Chips offenses have always worked well with those DAT/mcLuster types that stretch the field horizontally…adding both types of weapons would create even more space then our offense created this year, and since our coach is all about isolating mismatches in space, I think it’s probably a fair assumption to think Chip has those types of additions on his mind…
            .Just think at how Ertz was able to take advantage of certain matchups like in the Arizona game. He will be scary as he improves and has more space to beat you, because the defense is spread more thin by all our speed

            I think Chip is all about fast, athletic, explosive Youth…we have little in our stable of WR, and the young athletes we do have, Damaris and Maehl, don’t seem to be the answer….so I would be pretty darn surprised if we don’t add some young speed at WR this year..and sooner or later Chip is going to want his DAT/Sprouls/McLuster type, so we might as well yt it out of the way…since we both agree we don’t have that type of player, I wonder what we think about trading Bryce or polk

          • anon

            Thanks to scheme / personnel / defense he doesn’t HAVE to win games.

    • #7

      Been saying this all season, but it’s a knock when I say it even though it’s the truth

  • Tom w

    If my memory serves me, eagles went after Sean smith at corner (went w bit more money from chiefs) and Keenan Lewis before signing Cary Williams. Eagles actually offered Lewis more money than saints too. But Lewis is from New Orleans and always knew he wanted to play there. When the opportunity arrives he turned down the eagles and others for a chance to play in his hometown near fam for less money.

  • PaoliBulldog

    1. Keenan Lewis is a New Orleans native (I’m a resident), and I have read that he really wanted to come home and play for the Saints. Of course, the Saints offered Lewis more guaranteed money than the Eagles gave Williams & Fletcher combined, but unless the Eagles had offered Lewis significantly more than the Saints did, he probably would have signed with New Orleans anyway.

    2. Foles needs to learn not only how to avoid a sack but also how to throw the ball away without getting flagged for intentional grounding. Maybe Kellyshould increase the number of designed rollouts so Foles gets outside the tackles better.

    3. From my preseason comments: “If [Clay] Harbor could long snap, he wouldn’t be on the bubble.” Cheers, Sheil! I agree fully, giving a roster spot to a one-trick pony doesn’t make sense, even if his wife is hot.

    4. I don’t think there has been a kicker/punter in the NFL since soccer style replaced straight-on. Could that be a reason punters don’t kick and kickers don’t punt? Different mechanics?

  • Corey Dawson

    Totally agree with you on that last point. Intentional grounding has the same exact effect as a sack, placing the ball where the ball was thrown from with a loss of down. Drawn holding calls too, though there’s no loss of down but that’s made up with losing more yards (10) than would likely be lost without the hold. The person who forces each should be credited. Off season project to go back and relook at how the pressure stats change with that stuff included? I think it would make a good article.

  • EaglePete

    “According to Pro Football Focus, 17.4 percent of Foles’ throws traveled 20 yards or more from the line of scrimmage. That’s the highest percentage of any QB in the last two years.”

    wait, I thought all Foles did was dink and dunk and rely on screens?

    • NickS1

      Captain Checkdown

    • anon

      Foles throws on avg. probably 25 passes a game. He takes 4 shots downfield a game. It’s not that crazy.

  • PaoliBulldog

    Also, FWIW:

    Lou Groza was not only the first star placekicker in the NFL, but he also played offensive tackle most of his career.

    Gino Cappeletti was a wideout and placekicker for the Patriots.

    Bill Bradley punted and played DB for the Eagles (he wasn’t a very good punter, though).

    • distantfires

      Randall Cunningham was, though.

    • Maggie

      Jerry Kramer.

  • distantfires

    …do away with the punter, as SK suggests, and you’re still not going to save a roster spot — who’s gonna’ hold on FG tries?

    • theycallmerob

      anyone with a finger can hold a football. At least when I played (both HS and college levels), we had a number of guys who would just put their finger on the ball in practice to get snaps in for the kickers.
      although if Howie wants to fill that roster spot, I’ll gladly do it for the veteran’s minimum and unlimited smoothies

      • distantfires

        Rob, you’re funny! And I was J-K. Out.

    • Richard Colton

      more importantly, once the team’s three specialists stop, you know, specializing, what do you call them? Hybrids? Generalists?

      • theycallmerob

        miscast soccer players

    • Broadcasting Wisdom

      Backup QB – or Tony Romo if you’re the Cowboys. Detmer used to hold for Akers, even made a big stink about how his timing was off when Rocca had to hold for him. All it takes is practice, though, and backup QBs apparently have less practice time on holds than punters.

  • aub32

    I find it so funny how some fans are dismissing the successes of other QBs in order to boost up Foles. The excuses about how Cam, Kaep and Wilson would be nothing without their run game and defenses are crazy. Do we forget how well our D did this year holding teams to under 21 points? Do we forget that we had the number 1 rushing attack in the league. How is that any different. Do some of you even consider strength of schedule? How about looking at what the other QBs had to work with. CAR has nothing better than average outside of Steve Smith. SEA had below average skill players across the board, excluding Lynch. Kaep turned the offense around after getting Crabtree. Some of you really need context. Also, for those saying you would take Foles over Luck (I know it isn’t many) you all are football ignorant. Do you have any idea what Luck would do with these weapons, a good O line, and the NFL’s number 1 rusher? You guys couldn’t be bigger homers.

    • EaglePete

      not all of us. Its hard being objective. Im a big Kaep fan, dude getting to maybe 2 super bowls in a row and is young, still time to learn but not a bad start eh. Theres no need to knock the top guys in order to boost your guy, they are all products of their team, scheme, coaching etc. Its only when they choke in big games do the labels start to stick and actually mean something.

      • GEAGLE

        While that’s admirable. That’s not really really the true dynamic…people feel the need to a knock those guys because OUR QB still doesn’t get the respect that those guys get…when good young QBs get discussed we would be lucky to even hear FOles name mentioned after all those guys….if our QB was Luck, we wouldn’t even care about kAp and Wilson, because Luck get the respect already….
        ….
        Other Teams QBs come into the argument when people won’t treat Foles how they treat those other guys simple because he doesn’t have the sexy name brand, and he isn’t today mega athlete..

        • RIP illa

          It was the same w/ Brady before he and Belichek started dominating Super Bowls and the division…which was very ver quick for them. Foles will get that consideration from the outside and even some “inside” fans when he follows suit or does something similar!!! So until then…who gives a F!!! He’s our QB and we should be the only ones worried about how well he is playing instead of worrying about if the media is blowing him enough!!! He’ll get his due when the time comes…and even if he doesn’t…once again, WHO THE HELL CARES??? As long as he’s winning us games/playoffs/super bowls and shows that no other QB on the roster is better than him!!! No need to tear down another team’s QB and pretty stupid to do when those other team’s QBs are standing where we wish we were!!!

          • GEAGLE

            I don’t disagree, but I’m talking about DEFENDING FOles from OUR OWN FANS!! You are talking about not caring about defending him to others….people who bring the other QBs into the discussion are doing it to defend him from alleged “Eagles” fans who still can’t appreciate just how damn lucky they got

          • RIP illa

            Yeah every fanbase has their share of those fans. And not trying to be confrontational, so take as you want, but you drool over almost every player on our roster. It’s just two sides of the same coin. And although they are trying to “defend” Foles, the manner in which they do so can be pretty messed up, skewed, and complete biased at times. Only to serve, making their arguments seem less credible…or just as credible as our own fan’s arguments ripping Foles to shreds (which is not credible at all). We did get lucky that Foles had the good-great year that he did. Everyone should know that and if they don’t, then there’s not too much of a point in trying to discuss it further w/ them…they’re pretty much hopelessly gonna be stedfast in their way of thinking despite any evidence to the contrary.

          • anon

            Upvote if anyone here things Foles is a bad QB? I can tell you now it’ll be no one.

        • anon

          I don’t think Kap got a lot of respect until he won a bunch of playoffs games in his first year as a starting QB. RW has won a stupid number if games in a tough division and showed an amazing amount of leadership (but i think he’s regressed as a second year) given his draft position. Luck is luck, you lead your teams to wins over Seattle, SF and Denver and you’ll get respect too.

    • southy

      “How is that any different.”

      In 2 very important ways.

      1) Our Defense is nowhere close to as good as SF or SEA. It just isn’t.

      2) In what you allege to be a similar situation, Foles came out and threw for more TDs (in 5 fewer games), more yards/game, a higher completion % and a much higher yards/attempt with a tiny fraction of the turnovers.

    • theycallmerob

      Do we forget how well our D did this year holding teams to under 21 points?
      yes, and Foles went 7-1 during those games (of course, the one he lost we definitely gave up more than 21)

      I think the argument is getting mixed up a little. I think all of those guys are good QBs. Also, they can all run. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive; I think the point is Foles can succeed at that level without having to necessarily be that athletic.

      • RIP illa

        Good post and you’re right. But just like w/ the Vick v Foles debates…there alotta Pro-Foles guys, that post on here, that make it a very bad and annoying habit of trying to tear down other QBs so that they can prop up Foles!!! If it would just maintain as a Foles discussion then that would be great and the points of support for him would be obviously valid and pretty indisputable!!!

        • Richard Colton

          as great as Foles played, I really don’t get the “Foles over Luck” thing. Yea – he had a crappy playoff game, but that guy is a can’t miss elite QB.

          • GEAGLE

            Yeah I don’t think FOles belongs higher then Luck..but I do believe FOles had a better year then luck. FOles made as many big plays as anyone! did it in less starts, less experience and hurt his offense less. But One year doesn’t trump the other 5 years luck outplayed FOles just yet..

            But if Luck is the reference point, to some degree you have to like where FOles is so soon in his career and experience level both in the NFL and this offense

          • Richard Colton

            I will say that I think Foles is the best QB in the NFC East. That’s not too homerish? Is it?

          • theycallmerob

            OMAHA

          • Andy124

            Yeah I don’t think FOles belongs higher then Luck..but I do believe FOles had a better year then LUck.

            Good, important distinction.

          • anon

            Hurt his offense less? Donald Brown is their running back and their best WR tore an ACL mid-season. I think it’s pretty amazing doing what he did with what he had this year.

          • RIP illa

            For real!!! That’s truly being a homer!!! Makes me sorta glad to live in “Bills” country. Very little homer-ism up here. Even when people try, they’re instantly smacked back to reality by fans. And it’s the same way on the radio too. It’s actually pretty hilarious when a sports talk host has to bring fans back too reality and they always do.

            I see Luck’s flaws, and don’t mind the picks, outside of the last playoff game, but it’s kinda obvious just by watching the kid, that he has everything imaginable to over come them and be an elite QB. He makes you kinda feel at ease, when watching. Like no matter the (negative) play or outcome, you just brush it off and are like…’it’s Luck, he’ll be alright’. Must be great to be a fan of that team and be able to feel like that. I’m not their yet on Foles and certainly wasn’t that way w/ Vick.

        • theycallmerob

          Sure. But I don’t think it’s discrediting those guys to say “if Foles played on that team with that talent, he may have gone further”. Just as Foles is a product of the talent and scheme around him, those guys are just as guilty. They just still happen to be playing on Sundays.
          Rather than put Foles on those teams, turn it the other way; is anyone absolutely convinced, beyond a doubt, that having Kaep or Wilson on our team for the Saints game would have led to a W? I don’t think so. Let’s just give them their kudos, hope we draft better with the higher picks, and come back and destroy them next year when we play them.
          Personally, I hope Manning wins it, if only because I hate Brady and I don’t want these guys to win (it’ll be endless Kaep/Wilson vs. Foles crap if they do, “but he won a ring!!!“. Plus, SEA and SF will be in cap hell soon enough when those guys get their $ and the talent around them depreciates.

          • RIP illa

            Agreed w/ it all. Yet all you have to do is scroll up to see the statements in which I was speaking of. I’m a Manning lover and a Pats hater. Would love nothing more to see him trounce that team. Kap pissed me off w/ his celebration yesterday…to contrived to pointed. And I follow that w/, I think players should be allowed to showboat a little bit more. But that just rubbed me the wrong way. So here’s to a Denver v Seattle Super Bowl!!! And yes, if Wilson wins it playing the way he has been lately (w/ the Hawks D), then he’s way more Trent Dilfer than Brady and will always have that knock until he can prove otherwise…IMO.

          • theycallmerob

            Ha, dumb posts never go away. I just downvote or move on.
            Regardless of what 7 may think, I’ve tried to be as pragmatic about Foles as possible. He had an amazing year, and hopefully will only improve (not necessarily stats-wise) so long as Chip is here and there’s talent around him.
            But any real fan with a brain knows that it’s the defensive talent keeping us from super bowl potential

      • aub32

        I don’t disagree. Foles definitely showed he can start and perform well in this league. I don’t think has shown more than Kaep, Wilson or Luck. Foles has skills, but he played smallest in the biggest games. That’s not to say he was bad. He just had poorer performances in the biggest games. (The two Dallas games and the Saints). On the other hand, the other 3 QBs each beat at least one of the top 3 teams in the league and won at least one playoff game against better teams than the Saints (on the road).

  • jon h

    The Saints kicker picked the wrong week to start missing field goals.

  • theycallmerob

    That’s the highest percentage of any QB in the last two years. In other
    words, this offense took more shots downfield than any other in the NFL.

    the nail in the “checkdown” coffin

    • Richard Colton

      unless your third read, 25 yards downfield, counts as a check down

    • anon

      Think the prob against nola is that he wasn’t taking the checkdowns (think that’s a product of us playing from behind). Hopefully in the offseason we’ll get balance.

      • theycallmerob

        ha, it’s funny you say that, since last week plenty of other posters thought he didn’t take enough shots (early on, to Djax, and that corner route to Celek which Sheil showed on the all-22).
        having a decent run game would have helped plenty. and, if by balance you mean a WR who Foles can trust to move the chains on 3rd down (like Boldin for Kaep), then absolutely!

        • anon

          I mean when you take an L as a QB you’re probably going to take a lot of blame. But second half there were some times (esp. on the sacks he took) where there were checkdowns there but he wss looking down field. I think as he learns to read Ds he’ll know better pre-snap what will be there or he’ll move quicker through the progressions. But comes from behind in your first playoff game i’m not surprised.

  • CrackSammich

    The benefit of having two kickers/punters on the roster is that when one goes down, you still have another one on your bench. That’s what allowed the easy transition this weekend. Combine those positions to one roster spot and you’re left with whoever on the team is an athletic freak and hasn’t practiced a field goal since high school.

    I’ve read that coaches like having the long snapper, punter, kicker roster spots so that they can practice off on their own without, for example, a TE on the bubble losing their TE to long snapping.

  • Maggie

    Sheil, During the Carolina-San Francisco game, at @13:12 of the second quarter, a member of the Panthers wearing a headset seriously interfered with a play between the receiver and defender. Boldin(?) made the catch, but it looked like the coach got almost in between the players. Most of the Panther players were standing on the white sideline and a couple were actually across it. Did anybody get a $100,000 fine?

  • GEAGLE

    Someone needs to go back watch the saints game and do an analysis on just how much our Nickle defense gave up in the run game, and how much we gave up when Benny was on the field in your base defense to saints running backs..
    ..
    Convrsly we need to know how many passing yards we gave up with our base defense. If they were completing passes every time we were in our base defense! then Billy really didn’t have much choice but to play Nickle and hope they wouldn’t get trampled on by Saimts running backs….I think it’s safe to assume that we are better at stoping the run, when we take Boykin off the field and stick Logan in the middle of our front

    • Tom W

      Yes I was saying the same thing the day after the game but the dopes and talking heads were calling for new nosetackle and logan’s head and new ilbs. They basically played nickel the entire game … logan wasn’t even on the field alot of run plays .. but truth be told he did get owned on that last drive but even then … we were in base and not short yardage bc we were fearing play action (which the saints did do twice).

      Chip already said he wants logan to get up to 320. Square needs replacing. We need a quality safety so we can play base against teams like the saints and broncos.

      Aren’t far off … Edge rusher early in draft … vet safety like Clemons or Hitner ….. young safety early in draft to be able to play dime … backup nt over square…. corner 4-5 to develop as starters …. if they wanna take that monster from minnesota in rd1 okay w me .. bpa bpa bpa

  • KobraKai7474

    Regarding your outside the box idea, you are 35 years too late. In 1979, the Saints drafted 3-time All-American punter/kicker Russell Erxleben in the first round (11th pick overall!). They considered him well worth such a high pick because he could save them a roster spot while handling both kicking and punting duties. Oh yeah, for their trouble, the Saints got a mediocre punter for 5 years. Over the course of those 5 seasons, Erxleben kicked a few PATs and FGs, but he was never their regular kicker.

  • Bleeding Green Nation

    FYI, Aiken is the long snapper for New England and Ryan Allen is the punter.