Eagles Wake-Up Call: Pass-Rush Rankings

Eagles DE Vinny Curry helmet off at practice looking at cameraThrough nine games, the Eagles’ pass-rush remains a work-in-progress.

Last week against Oakland, Billy Davis’ unit took advantage of a QB in Terrelle Pryor who was anxious to escape the pocket all game long.

Overall, the Eagles rank 22nd in Football Outsiders’ adjusted sack rate, which takes into account pass-rushing opportunities.




Granted, numbers don't tell the whole story, but here's a look at pass-rushing production from a statistical standpoint. Sacks and hurries are tracked by Eagles coaches.

Pass-rushing opportunities are courtesy of Pro Football Focus. And I calculated pressure percentage, which is sacks/hurries per opportunity.

 
Sacks
Hurries
Chances
Pressure Percentage
Vinny Curry361028.8%
Fletcher Cox3163405.6%
Connor Barwin382694.1%
Brandon Graham131004.0%
Clifton Geathers03803.8%
Bennie Logan221353.0%
Trent Cole172852.8%
Cedric Thornton162862.4%
Damion Square00350.0%

Notes:

* Vinny Curry continues to make the most of his pass-rushing chances. He's only had 102 opportunities to get after the quarterback but is tied for the team lead with three sacks. Curry's snaps continue to increase, and Davis went out of his way this week to mention the improvement the second-year player has made against the run.

* Connor Barwin has broken up seven passes, according to coaches' stats. That's easily the most of any front-seven player on the team.

* Trent Cole had probably his most productive game of the year against Oakland, finishing with six tackles, a sack (his first of the season) and two hurries (also a season-high).

* Brandon Graham has been quiet with one tackle, no sacks and no hurries the past two games. But he did draw a holding penalty with one pass-rush. That doesn't show up in the numbers here.

* Fletcher Cox is tied for the team lead with three sacks. He also leads the Eagles with 16 hurries; no other player on the team has more than eight.

* A couple weeks ago, Chip Kelly identified Cedric Thornton as the team's best pass-rusher. So the tape and stats don't necessary align here. He's been one of the team's best and most consistent players on defense all season long.

* Bennie Logan gets a bump in playing time, starting for Isaac Sopoaga. His focus is on the run game, and Logan did well in that aspect last week, finishing with four tackles, the most of any defensive lineman.

WHAT YOU MISSED

An All-22 look at Logan, two-gapping and 'no-run day.'

The injury report has updates on Thornton and Bradley Fletcher.

The national media roundup has Kelly getting "snookered" by Bill Belichick on the Sopoaga trade and Nick Foles being a one-hit wonder.

T-Mac takes a look at how Foles is winning over his teammates.

WHAT THEY'RE SAYING

Chris Burke of SI.com gives the Eagles a B- through the first nine games:

The idea of "Chip Kelly: Miracle Worker" has been replaced by a more conservative line of thinking. That said, the Eagles have turned on the afterburners on occasion (i.e. that Oakland game mentioned above), enough to stick within a game of first place in the East. The arrow is pointing up, even if the record remains below the .500 line.

Tommy Lawlor of Iggles Blitz talks about Bryce Brown in his game review:

Ran for 32 yards on play at the end of the 1st Qtr. There were 6 in the box. Foles gave BB the ball on a simple inside run. He broke a tackle by Woodson and then got wide. Excellent size/speed play. My only complaint is that he went out of bounds at the end. Had 2 defenders to deal with, but I’d prefer the big backup RB punish those guys instead of just going out of bounds.

COMING UP

We'll hear from Kelly and talk to players down at NovaCare. Plus, it's Birds 24/7 on 97.5 The Fanatic. Stop by Smiths in Center City between 6 and 7. McManus is buying.

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  • DirtyWaters

    I like to pretend that the coaching staff knows more about football than a bunch of commenters on a blog; but Curry being inactive those first couple games blew my mind. It really set in yesterday with the “no-run day” article. That put it in perspective and made me get it.. Glad to see Curry improve that aspect of his game and at the same time be tied for sack leader with limited playing time.

    • damrvrhunter

      I down voted you because the Coaches had been saying all along that Curry sucked at anchoring against the run. Shooting the gap i.e. “getting after the QB” is not the main task of a 3 4 end on early downs.

      • DirtyWaters

        Ok. Maybe I still have the foul taste of the wide 9 in my mouth. I must’ve forgotten that stopping the run is still a priority in this league. I just felt that after the preseason Vinny had that there would be a spot on gameday for him.

  • Bullwinkle

    It’s easy for Tommy Lawlor to say Brown should have “punished” the 2 defenders rather than running out of bounds. Lawlor doesn’t have to deal with the long term effects of “punishing” other players. Earl Campbell was great at dishing out punishment. He now suffers frome dementia and can barely walk. The scribes used to get on Franco Harris for running out of bounds rather than putting his body at risk taking useless hits. Franco can still walk and function mentally.

    • Adam

      If Brown doesn’t do it, they’ll find a guy who will. That’s life in the NFL for an UDFA, whether it’s pretty or not. He’s not playing well enough that he can afford to cut corners.

      • Bullwinkle

        He’s not an UDFA. I just heard a story on the news that Tony Dorsett has now been diagnosed with CTE. The list of players with chronic brain injuries continues to grow. This is creating a black eye for football at all levels. I would think the Eagles would want have a healthy Bryce Brown reach his full potential.

        • Adam

          What about a RB lowering his shoulder into a defender creates a black eye for football? It’s part of the game.

          And listen, in this league there’s no difference between a 7th round pick and an UDFA. They’re a dime a dozen and are expendable. That’s just the way it is. Backup RB’s in this league have to go the extra mile to proof their worth. This is especially true for a guy with Bryce Brown’s size and skill set. He’s big but he’s got burners, and to compliment the skill set of LeSean McCoy the Eagles are expecting him to be a downhill runner, lowering the shoulder and making DB’s pay for trying to tackle him. That’s what’s expected of him. As I said before, if he can’t do it then they’ll find someone who will.

          Bryce had a good season last year but he hasn’t even come close to living up to his potential this year. When you’re as low on the totem pole as him (almost no resources invested into him) he needs to do more. If that’s punishing defenders or learning to run between the tackles, or north/south instead of east/west, then he needs to start doing that.

          • Bullwinkle

            Lowering the shoulder can easily result in a blow to the head, depending on how the other player reacts. That’s why so many players have brain damage. Such damage can be caused by a major blow or a series of continuous hits over time. I don’t think that any person in any occupation is expendable to the point of risking serious injury and permanent disability when there is little or nothing to be gained.
            I agree that BB needs to learn to run N-S. I don’t agree that he should not run out of bounds when pinned in on the sideline.

    • damrvrhunter

      Taking on defenders when close to the end zone or the first down marker are about the only times to initiate “unnecessary” contact.

  • Token

    When you sit and think about how awful Barwin and Cole have been at being disruptive OLBs, its even more impressive that the D has held teams to few points over the last few weeks.

    I think its something that cant continue though. Its hard to be consistently good when you consistently cant get to the QB.

    • JofreyRice

      Totally agreed. I’m really surprised that they have played as well as they have. I am very impressed with the run defense. Despite giving up 100 yards on the ground and 300 yards in the air to Terrelle Pryor, the D did a great job on third downs, for the most part. Hats off to Davis for these last few games. At the risk of sounding like a wet blanket, this feels a little bit like those last 4 games in 2010, when they beat up on a bunch of backup QBs. I’m trying, but I just can’t shake this skepticism of the D, and Davis, in general. Like many others, I would have liked to see them face an upper-echelon NFL attack.

      When you remove Aaron Rodgers from the GB offense, it’s a different team. After Foles performance last week, you have to think Capers can’t totally sell out to stop Shady, so even if Foles isn’t as sharp, maybe this will be a chance for Shady to get back to breaking big runs. I think they’ll win.

      • nicksaenz1

        I don’t necessarily disagree with the points made by you and Token, so I’ll play a little devil’s advocate. Could it be that because we’ve become good at stopping the run that teams are in more predictable passing situations, allowing for certain defenses to be called to help limit damage in passing? No, we’re not getting sacks, but as we saw in the last few games, we’re moving the pocket and making the QB move, which typically results in less accuracy from the Qb. And our coverage hasn’t been as dreadful as in the last two years.

        • G_WallyHunter

          Coverage has looked the best it has since before (dare i say his name) Nnamdi, how about that!

          • nicksaenz1

            Probably the best it has since Sheldon & Lito were manning the corners. Not that they’re at that level, but they’re not too far behind so far.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Yup, definitely. I miss those days. Lito and Sheldon with the one and only manning the middle…

          • Token

            Eh, I dont think so. We are just easily impressed after watching Aso play. They are still allowing yards through the air. Still getting embarrassed at times. I think Fletcher has played some pretty good cover corner. His ball skills are just bad. Williams just cant cover very well.

          • nicksaenz1

            Bend but don’t break. That’s philosophy. Yards will be surrendered. Numbers without context make it easy for “They are still allowing yards through the air” to sound damning. 150-200 of the yards in the Raiders game came in garbage time with second stringers.

          • aub32

            Too many people only look at numbers and forget all about context. Thanks for bringing that to light.

          • nicksaenz1

            No problem. I love my stats as much as the next guy, but to rely solely on stats w/o context makes for very misleading arguments/statements.

          • Andy124

            Besides, 83% of all statistics are made up.

          • aub32

            I’m guessing this falls into your supposed 83%

          • Andy124

            Yeah, that’s the fun part. And it’s a line stolen from somewhere, How I Met Your Mother maybe.

        • JofreyRice

          Jeez, Terrelle Pryor is a tough yardstick for me to measure against. He’s just not a developed passer at this point. We know that sometimes the guy bails early, to try and make a play with his legs, and moves into pressure, unnecessarily.

          I thought Eli and the Giants moved the ball against the Eagles in the air pretty well. They were dreadful in the redzone, because I think the zones that Davis is calling to avoid getting beat over the top compress a little. Eli’s a good QB, but he’s trying to do a lot this year, without a running attack.

          Neither Cole nor Barwin get to the QB. I mean, the #’s don’t lie. They are just not productive when they’re asked to rush the passer. I think the inside pressure from Cox and Curry has been pretty good, but I still just don’t see Barwin or Cole making plays in that realm, unless they are unblocked.

          • nicksaenz1

            There’s lies, damn lies, and statistics. The problem with statistics is that you can generally make them say what you want, or close to it. Which is why I raised the argument. Getting QBs out of the pocket is certainly pressuring the QB. No, it’s not a sack or a hurry, but it’s pressure. We may have been fortunate to not have been killed outside the pocket, because Pryor has shown glimpses, and Manning/Romo can make just about any throw, but they still aren’t easy throws outside of the pocket on the move.
            I completely agree that we need a replacement for the Cole/Graham situation. Has to come through draft, because at least one of those two is staying because of dead money. But I’m not as willing as some to say that the pass rush is just awful because I don’t see the numbers.

          • JofreyRice

            Agreed the #’s don’t always tell the whole story, but I think improving the formula by taking combine hurries, hits, and sacks and dividing it by opportunities (i.e. when the player would be measured as “successful” by generating those plays) kind of gives you a better overall feel for how productive a player is.

            My bone of contention with that formula is that sacks are weighted the same as hurries, but IRL, have a far more powerful impact on the game. I think you need some kind of weighted average, divided by the opportunities. As Adam said above, taking the QB to the ground really does affect the game more.

          • nicksaenz1

            I can get with that. If we throw in broken/busted pockets it’d be even more complete of a statistic. Weight those the same as hurries, QB hits a little more, sacks the most. Maybe throw in batted passes at the line? Barwin’s bread and butter right now. It’s no sack but it’s effective.

          • Andy124

            And count Intentional groundings as sacks.

      • Token

        Im not nearly ready to crown Davis. I still have pretty much no faith in the guy personally. But Ill give him credit for a good few week span here. You obviously dont wanna see 500+ yards given up to the Raiders, but the points were kept down.

        Pryor really just looked awful. I expected to see more of a weapon. Guy just looked brain dead on every drop back.

        I really wanted the D to get Rodgers. Just as a test.

        I think at this point Davis’s job is safe for next year regardless of what happens from here. So, ill just hope for the best.

        Theres still a bunch of upgrading needed on D. It would be great if Foles ends up being amazing so they could draft D, but Im not very confident. They probably are out of reach of Mariota already tho. So D might be the pick anyway.

        Throw money at Byrd. Have him and Wolff start. Draft another safety at some point.

        Draft the best OLB rusher you can. Barwin is serviceable as the second fiddle I guess.

        Get a thumper at ILB.

        Get a lane clogger for NT. Though I think Logan is who they are eyeing up to play NT. But cant hurt to get another big body, doesnt have to be early.

        That would be a good start. Id like to see another CB. But they can probably get away with what they have. Williams is who id like to see swapped out.

    • Dominik

      That would be the great thing about not having to draft a QB in the first round. You could really focus on a pass rusher early on. Barwin is a great No. 2 OLB imho. Good against the run, active with his arms so he can deflect passes, and he gets a sack from time to time. And: he’s a pretty good cover OLB.

      Our Defense is generally good against the run. If you can add a guy like Demarcus Ware (I know, that’s over the top, but for the sake of the argument) this Defense would make a huge jump. The D-Line + Barwin + Ryans negate the run and our first round Pass Rusher hunts the QB. Cox and that guy could be like the two Smiths in San Francisco last season (one can at least dream, right?).

      Yeah, we also need help at Safety and probably one CB, but the No. 1 defensive priority should be the pass rushing OLB. I like Cole and he brings all the effort, but he’s just not a No. 1 pass rusher that opponents fear anymore.

      • UncleCarm

        I’m curious which CB you think we need to replace? I like Williams attitude and Fletcher has been surprisingly good. I’m not saying this pair is top flight, but it does not feel like an area of ‘need’ to me.

        • aub32

          I wouldn’t say it’s an area of “need”, but it’s definitely an area that can be upgraded. I get some fans like CW’s attitude, but I’m sure they’d like a guy who can cover and isn’t good for a PI call or two every game even more. We definitely have bigger concerns on defense, such as OLB and S. Personally, I hope we look at an upgrade at ILB too.

          • RIP illa

            So far I think we have only one definite “need” on this team and that’s OLB. Not saying that every other spot is locked down, but they are being manned pretty competently at the present. So CB is right up there to the top for me along w/ MLB. Cause as this team is shaping out (and I don’t see too many major foreseeable set backs) we are really going to need those two positions, IMO, next year or the year after if I’m being optimistic. It’d be better to address those areas now, than waiting until they become a need, when Cary and Mecco get into their 30s. Definitely better than having to depend on a rookie to come in and play up to those levels.

          • aub32

            Agreed. The only thing I will throw in is that I would rather upgrade a spot where we have someone competitive than to reach for an OLB who is turns out be a mediocre pass rusher. I think the new regime showed us something when they spent a 2nd round pick on Ertz. They seem to be comitted to going BPA in the draft and finding good players to fit the holes through FA. I think this is the way to do it.

          • RIP illa

            Yeah I hear ya, and that’s what I’m afraid of, them sticking to the strategy from last year. I get the BPA thing, but this team has a chance to shave a year or two off their rebuild. I don’t think we took advantage of it this past draft and hope we do so a little more this draft. Not saying they have to pull a Jarret, but even a miss on an elite pass rusher and have him turn out just to be decent will help our sack numbers and pressure a lot. I think th chances of us nailing the luck of OLB in the 1st are pretty good. Meaning if we choose one we’ll get a good to elite pass rusher. The only two prospects I have reservations about are Beasely (size and I need to see more tape) and Hubbard (really mediocre right now) and only Beasely is projected to go in the 1st. And as cliff said, we’re not gonna get the guy via FA.

          • aub32

            I hear you, but I don’t have any problem with the 2013 draft. I’ve said before that I think Cyprien would have been the pick over Ertz if available. However, I like the Ertz pick. Look at some of the most unstoppable weapons in the game today: Witten, Gonzalez, Gronk, Graham, Davis, and others. We know at some point we are going to have a young guy take over at QB (Foles/Barkley/rookie) Why not allow them to grow with their security blanket already in place.

            I get the need for an OLB. I really do, but I don’t want to reach for one at the cost of losing a stud elsewhere. Look at the effect players at CB, MLB, WR, and NT are having in games. I would rather take special players young and fill in the holes with serviceable FAs than breed a team full of decent players who were taken too early.

          • JofreyRice

            If they were committed to going BPA, they would have gone with Gio Bernard, Keenan Allen, or Kiko Alonzo, to name 3. Those were the best players. IMO, like all teams, they are drafting for need–they perceived a need to have a second TE that could eventually take over for Celek, and they thought Ertz was that guy.

          • aub32

            This is how you grade out, not them. Also you obviosly don’t draft at a position where you are more than set for in RB. However, you nor I can’t say that Ertz didn’t grade out higher than those 3, and looking at them now is just hindsight.

          • cliff henny

            vick loves ertz, algae crumpler love…AC was a beast…till Dawk took out about7 ribs!!!! that bs tri-mester garabage really set him back. he’s really just ending training camp.

          • theycallmerob

            he’s my sleeper fantasy pick for next year. book it

          • cliff henny

            say vet top tier safety playing next to wolff is #1 need.

          • aub32

            I’d have to disagree. Who is the game’s top safety right now? I think I would take a Von Miller over whoever you could name.

          • Andy124

            Brian Dawkins… still.

          • aub32

            LMAO.

          • cliff henny

            need that eagles can get. top rush OLBrs dont make it to free agency. Byrd or Ward will be available. like WRs, they dont hit market, can wish all you want for charles Johnson, might have a shot at him in early 30’s. have to draft these guys.

          • aub32

            I don’t think you added that little caveat previously. I do agree it will be easier to attain a S than a stud OLB. Seems like even teams in cap hell manage to somehow retain their stud pass rushers.

          • RIP illa

            Was talking more in terms of the draft and Already addressed that in a previous post. Said go after Byrd and/or Clemons. Yet still, as I said all the other spots on the team are being manned pretty competently right now…even Safety. Your hate for Nate knows no bounds!!! Lol. So no as of now…Safety isn’t a need and definitely not in the realm of OLB if it even was to he considered a need.

          • cliff henny

            nate isnt good. getting better is a realitive word…guy really couldnt of gotten worse from the charger’s game, could he?

          • aub32

            He’s been competent as of late. I’m ok with that for this year and wouldn’t have a problem with him splitting time with Earl next year alongside our FA pickup.

          • cliff henny

            if he’s willing to take backup contract, sure. is he any use in STs though? figure some desperate team will think he can be starter…maybe buffalo will think byrd for allen -5m is fair trade-off

          • RIP illa

            Lol..stop it. Don’t care if he’s “good” he’s playing “good” and has been for a min. I keep having this argument w/ u guys…the kid is playing his best ball and not hurting the team even when he’s not on his A game, the Chargers game being the one exception!!! Could he be challenged and/or upgraded…sure, but there’s no way in hell The safety position qualifies as a top need right now, if even a need at all. Unless people just are hating for the sake of hating!!!

          • cliff henny

            his A game? still waiting for his C game to show up! lol… but seriously, let’s see how Nate does this week taking on Lacey in run support.
            .
            Nate should be poster child for the defensive coaching staff. if they can make him look servicable, wait till they get their hands on a good player. Nate’s contract is up, not often are guys resigned by own team once they hit FA. he’d be extended by now if they thought he was future.

          • Andy124

            Yeah, barring some serious continued improvement to the point where he’s just flat out impressive by the end of the season, I’d expect him to sign with another team as a depth safety somewhere next year.

          • theycallmerob

            would not mind his stats looking good on the year, though; you are correct about the “once they hit FA/extension” point. But if I’m not mistaken, compensatory picks are tied to performance during their contract year? Hope Nate racks up some tackles, or at least grabs a few picks. Already has 5 pbu’s on the year

          • cliff henny

            or it’s tied to money he signs for, then that’s slotted into picks. cause, the comp part comes well down the road. if it was tied to play, should know day after season ends. either way, you are right, better he plays, better the pick.
            .
            wonder how Maclin will work if he goes elsewhere

          • theycallmerob

            if you’re interested, found a good article here….http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/3/16/4112096/nfl-compensatory-picks-2013-formula

            I got curious about the Maclin question too. it mostly depends on how we do in the “volume” category- we will probably lose a good number of guys, but are we likely to sign a bunch (putting that cap money to use?) Maybe Kelly/Roseman prefer to trade back and accumulate picks vs FA, akin to Belichick?
            Very excited by the play and direction of the team so far this year; even more excited to see how they fare after Chip’s scheme is augmented with more specific and ideal players

            edit: another good site- http://russellstreetreport.com/cap-glossary/ this one mentions lost time (injury) being included in the formula. obviously, can’t speak to the accuracy or sources of either one

          • cliff henny

            agree with direction. the cherriest of cherries is foles. that is simply a gamechanger. outside of draft picks flopping, which stinks but happens to every team, i just dont see how the howie/eagles mess this up. will have a ton of cap space, good young vets in need position (safety…looking right at you Rip Illa) and top heavy draft in other 2 need position wr and olb. can draft celek’s replacement mid draft, corner, avants replacement in slot later, it just seems to lay out nicely. then, just get the heck out of kelly’s way!

          • theycallmerob

            I sure hope The Unassuming One works out

        • Dominik

          I don’t know which one, and both are OK, but I don’t think you can have a long Playoff run with BOTH as your starting CBs. Fletcher + X or Williams + X could work, if X is a pretty could CB. Boykin could develop into a great slot corner, so Fletcher or Williams would be CB4 (and a good No. 4, of course).

        • JofreyRice

          Cary Williams is a bigmouth, and a “tough guy”, and a solid tackler–for a CB–but I just don’t think the guy is good at playing coverage. For me, that’s the main thing you want a CB to do. I think they can do much better.

          Fletcher is a solid #2. Will get beat, and will break passes up, but hangs in and competes. I actually think he’s the best defensive FA they brought in. Problem for him has always been with his health, which is part of the reason STL moved on.

          • nicksaenz1

            STL also had the young guys they had just drafted. Made that decision a little easier.

          • JofreyRice

            Agreed, but IMO part of the reason they drafted those young guys was because of Fletcher’s injury history. He was unavailable for them a lot.

          • Dominik

            “I actually think he’s the best defensive FA they brought in.”

            Fletcher is a good signing, but I like the Barwin signing more. Long contract, fair price, good OLB #2.

          • JofreyRice

            eh, still not overly impressed. He’s competent in coverage and against the run–do agree it’s nice that he knows to put those mitts up–but look at the rush productivity #’s, it’s abysmal. For me, your linebackers just have to be better than that in a 3-4, where they are the only guys really filling that role in the defense; hence, why you have to get “creative” with playing Boykin as an ‘backer.

            I’d like Barwin more as a 4-3 SAM than the #2 passrusher on the team.

          • cliff henny

            barwin is like fletcher, brought in as #2 guys, we knew that forget howie’s spin, and due to limited roster both are asked to be focal point of their units. get them back to being robin’s to another’s batman, and we’ll look at them alot differently.

          • Andy124

            Supporting what you said, remember that we didn’t go with the 4-3 under where Barwin is basically a coverage guy and the predator is the pass rusher. I think some of us may still be thinking along those lines, where the predator is the pass rusher and the other guy just drops in to coverage all the time. They are playing the traditional 3-4 where both OLBs are expected to really get after the quarterback.

            That being said, if he’s your second best OLB, that’s not bad.

          • aub32

            I think you make a good point, but I think more fans, especially the ones on this site, never expected Barwin to be a double digit sack guy. We knew what he was, and he has done good in that regard. I get in a traditional 3-4 both guys should be good pass rushers, but we have to be realistic with our expectations. Look around the league. How many teams have two solid pass rushing OLBs? Look at the Packers when Matthews goes down or Dallas with Ware. The #2 guy is no where near as effective. In an off season where we had so much change, I think finding our #2 OLB is a really good and underrated pick up.

          • Andy124

            I think we agree about what the picture looks like, we’re just focussing on different parts of it.

          • aub32

            I guess I think it’s harder to find that #2 OLB than a #2 CB. I like Fletch, and I think he was also a good pickup. I just think CBs can be hidden a little easier if you can find a #1 guy and decent safeties. (That has to happen at some point right) I like the Barwin pickup a bit more just because of how bad we were against the run. Also, against Brady, Manning, or Brees, I think the front seven play a much bigger role in stopping them than the secondary. Stopping the run to make them one dimesional helps a great deal since then you can just harass those guys in the pocket; and they are no where near as athletic as Pryor.

          • JofreyRice

            Exactly. I would have liked him in that role better. The book on him was really out, from his days in Houston. Unproductive passrusher. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I think Davis does ask him to do more in coverage than Wade Phillips. It’s just tough when the guy on the other side isn’t making up for his lack of productivity.

          • anon

            The problem is that for the scheme they need to be able to cover and get to the QB. If Cole is rushing 100% of time time, perfect, as an office you can work around that. Barwin, is arguably one of the better pass rushers on the team AND is great in coverage. I’d like to see more pass rush from our ILBs. Meco is my favorite player but he needs more sacks and Kendricks…

          • RIP illa

            Look around the league and name a team that runs a 3-4 and has 2 dominant rush OLBs…don’t think there are any. Like mostly all dual positions on D, you have your playmaker and then you have your solid guy that does all the “dirty work”. The stuff that doesn’t show up on the stat sheets. CBs, Safeties, DEs, MLBs (3-4), and OLBs. All have/want the playmaker and the guy that does all the other stuff to let the playmaker make plays.

          • JofreyRice

            KC, absolutely has 2 guys. The ability of either Houston or Hali, to dominate 1-on-1 matchups really frees that defense up to do a lot of stuff, because very often, opposing offenses have to force the back to chip–essentially removing another player the offense can use. The defender assigned to him in man can drop in coverage, or come on a delayed rush the line will probably be too late to pick up.

            WAS has Orakpo and Kerrigan. Both can beat one on one. Neither is dominant like Hali or Houston, but they are both solid, IMO.

            BALT has Dumervil/Suggs. Both can dominate.

            BUF has Mario Williams/Hughes–altho there are times when that front is more 46 than 3-4, because Mike Pettine came from that Rex Ryan front @ NYJ.

            The problem is, mostly every other “3-4″ team has at least one edge rusher that can get to the passer, if they don’t have 2. I don’t think we have one. Pittsburgh wanted to replace Harrison’s production with Jarvis Jones; even though he’s a disappointment, so far, they still have Woodley on the other side, that’s capable of double-digit sacks. Same thing with Werner/Mathis in Indy. You gotta have at least one guy to be a good defense.

            I have to disagree with your last point.The OLBs in a 3-4 must pressure the passer. That’s their primary role. That’s why the linemen two gap, and do the “dirty work”–to free them up to make plays.

          • nicksaenz1

            I thought the 2-gap was with run-specific intent? A NT/DE in 3-4 taking up one blocker head on doesn’t free up LBs in passing game unless the NT/DE is a known disrupting force commanding double teams. Please correct me if I don’t have that correct, but I thought that’s what the two gapping was for, which is why we switch to 4-down nickel on pass plays.

          • theycallmerob

            twofold; the DL hopefully help seal gaps to prevent pulling lineman from reaching the MLBs in the run game; similarly, they maintain outside gap control and usually play heads-up over the tackles to allow the OLBs to play the pass.
            Going one step further, in the mold of Lebeau’s PIT scheme (which Davis adheres to), the fire zone usually brings 5 rushers of some kind. Since our safeties seem to play more deep zone, and Blitzin’ Boykin has settled into coverage, that means usually the OLBs come hard or 1OLB/1MLB.
            The 4 down nickel, or what I often see as a 4-2-5 on the field, plays more to our positional/personnel strengths than a 3-3-5 at this time. And if anything, the lack of rush from that group (sans blitz) is most disconcerting to me. Makes me think it is more on Cole and Graham as players, rather than the scheme.

          • nicksaenz1

            Thanks for clearing that up. Lining up head on with the tackles was the key takeaway for me.

          • JofreyRice

            Yeah, ideally the NT is sucking up double-teams all the time. I think that’s the idea. I think if done with the right personnel, it is a better defense agaisnt the run, but I’ve always understood another huge benefit of the 3-4 two gap is that it causes confusion in protection, in regards to where the 4th rusher is coming from–usually on one of the two edges, but sometimes from one of the middle guys, even on downs that may be more traditional “run” downs. The line controls the blockers & tries to eliminate holes, and the LBs flow to the ballcarrier. You should end up with a rush linebacker either single blocked, or just being blocked by a TE or back. The crux of the argument of Reggie White over. LT is that very often, LT was exploiting that matchup, while White was doing it against Tackles.

            I think moving to a one-gap package on obvious passing downs is about generating as many guys moving towards the QB as quickly possible.

          • RIP illa

            Fully understand that we need at least one OLB to be a dominant to elite pass rusher! I want it too.

            I wasn’t trying to dismiss the pass rushing aspect of OLBs. It’s just that teams use them in different ways. And from what I’ve seen, out of a base 3-4 package, one rushes and on drops or contains or anything but rush more often than they rush both. Could be totally wrong about that tho. Houston didn’t rush both all of the time durin Barwin’s last season, nor do we do it w/ him. Out of the base you have your primary rusher and the “other guy.” If the other guy didn’t have any other responsibilities or primary focuses than to rush the QB, we might as well just run a combo of Cole and Graham ever game all game long. But we don’t cause Davis knows that he needs on guy who should rush more often than not, and another guy who can do more than just rush and do extra stuff just about as often as he rushes, if not more.

            Like I said every team wants two and tries to aim for that but it doesn’t always workout like that.

            KC- 100% agree. 1/2 the teams in the league run some form of the 3-4 as their base and that team has two players making things happen. That’s 1 out of 14-16 teams. Think they’re the exception, not the rule.

            WAS – were really the 1st team in recent memory and times to put two dominant OLBs out at once. Everyone thought it would change the game…it didn’t as neither player can stay healthy. When was the last time you’ve seen those two on the field together on a consistent basis??? So. Does it count that they have two guys who give them not a whole lot during their time there, save for an occasional good year here and/or there???

            BAL – Rob may know the answer better than me, but how’s that D looking w/ Dumervil and Suggs being so dominant at times? That D’s mess and a utter shell of their former selves. Even last year when they won the SB their D was nothing special like it once was. And before Dumervil it was Kruger who can hardly be considered a dominant pass rusher.

            BUF – I truly don’t know what to say about them. I live up here and watch them every week and that D is confusing as hell. I seriously think people just call it a 3-4 for lack of better term, but that D has no shape…it’s all over the place!!! Rex runs a complicated 3-4 but seems like Pettine took it to a whole other level. Hughes is playing very well but I wouldn’t call him dominant just yet. He may very well be on his way to that, but that would still make it like 2 teams out of whatever the number is!

            Over reaching point is that Berwin’s (shout out to Dutch) is going no where no time soon!!! So we do need to hopefully draft that dominant to elite pass rusher and have him, Berwin, our MLBs, and line lead the way into a new “Gang Green” era.

          • Token

            I think the main thing you need from the OLB is to be a disruptive pass rusher. Barwin has been terrible in that regard. His sacks have come on unblocked plays. He is ALWAYS singled up and still cant ever beat a block. Ive seen RBs stonewalling the guy.

            Hes a big strong looking guy that doesnt play that way IMO.

          • Dominik

            I think as a #2 OLB, you need the qualities of Barwin: good against the run, good in coverage. Of course, you should complement that with a great QB hunter. If we would have a great pass rushing OLB, I think Barwins Hurries and Sack numbers would go up. You need to double team the Matthews and Wares in the NFL (sadly, not our Matthews :D) and that helps all the other front seven players around him.

            He isn’t a #1 OLB, but he is a solid #2, imho.

          • aub32

            He hasn’t been the best pass rusher, but he’s been good in other areas. You can’t simply define players based on the one thing they don’t do best.

          • RIP illa

            I think both Cary and Fletch have played better than most have expected over the course of the season. I find it “odd” that teams are more willing to go after and target Fletch than Williams. Still think we need to draft a CB that uas “play making” ability so he can sit and develop and also spot start in case of injury. The cupboards kinda bare for legit CB depth. i thin neither CB is the “best” in coverage, although I do think Fletch is better than Cary. Fletch gets injured a lot and Cary’s not a great cover guy.

            Gotta get a kid who can be a combo of the two for the “future”. My vote is for Louchiez!!! He’s got the size Davis likes, can cover, can blitz, and is physical. Plus he’s a playmaker and I think he could be had in the 2nd. Don’t see us drafting Dix and after him I don’t really like any other safety. Would rather go at Bryd and/or Clemons in FA. So we have the room in the draft to make it happen.

            1st rd OLB, 2nd rd CB, 3rd rd WR. Coops emergence w/ Foles under center, plus the wait and see approach on Benn and Mac, and also the sheer volume of good WRs that are going to be in the draft pushes the need for WR down IMO.

  • Adam

    Another reason to tip your cap to Billy Davis and company:

    Eagles had 13 (8 INTS, 5 FR) total takeaways last season to finish 31st in the league, only ahead of KC.

    9 games into 2013, The Eagles defense already has 15 (10 INT, 5 FR), good for 13th in the league.

    Turnovers are a big reason why we already matched the win total of the 2012. Last year the team had a absolutely sickening -24 turnover differential (13 takeaways, 37 giveaways), tied for the last in the league.

    Right now we sit at +1 (15 takeaways, 14 giveaways), also good for 13th in the league.

    Could you imagine if we had a pass rush?!

    • aub32

      I’m confused as to why fans keep saying we don’t have a pass rush. Pass rush is not limited to sacks. In the last 3 games we’ve faced two QBs that are really good at keeping plays alive in Romo and Pryor. The third, Eli, has been a stat killer this year by comitting one grounding penalty after the other. We don’t have that stud rush guy like a Matthews or a Ware, butwe have done a decent job at dialing up pressure this season even if the results aren’t in the stat sheet.

      • Adam

        Pressure in the face and intentional groundings are nice, but at some point you need to start being able to put hits on the QB on a regular basis. I’m not saying we don’t have a pass rush, it’s just not that good.

        Intentional groundings and throwaways are nice, but nothing substitutes a hit on the QB. It affects their game in a major way. Good things usually happen when you hit a QB.

        edit: I repeated myself twice in here. oh well, it’s early.

        • aub32

          Did you see the intentional groundings by Eli? Most of them were when he was going down. What’s our players supposed to do? He had 3 in the first game and one or two in the second, and that’s just what was called. Pryor has been playing Houdini all year. Some guys just aren’t that easy to bring down. Romo is Romo. My point is that sacks abd QB hits aren’t the only way to make good things happen. Having the QB run around and throw bad balls is not a bad thing. I think we agree on the point we need a pass rush OLB. I’m a huge Cole fan, but he’s just out of position. I do like Barwin. He can be the Anthony Spencer to our hopeful DeMarcus Ware. Barwin can set the edge, cover to a decent extent, and isn’t a bad pass rusher. He’s also a solid tackler. Our D line may be set if Logan pans out w/ Curry coming in on 4 man looks. My biggest question is what to do with Graham at this point.

        • anon

          intentional grounds are 15 + loss of a yd, i’d take that over a sack 6 days a week (sac, fumble, touchdowns are for sunday)

          • Adam

            Well to pull out a page from Dutch’s handbook, you’ve never played real football before. You hit a QB, you rattle him. You make him second guess his time in the pocket, you give him happy feet, and you cause him to make mistakes. It’s not always about the field position.

          • aub32

            Yes but intentional grounding is often not always, accompanied with a QB hit. Also, QBs don’t need to be hit to be rattled. One of Brady’s biggest complaints when playing the Giants were that hands were always in his face. He said “it’s like throwing through a forest”. I get what you’re saying about sacks, but I think you underestimate how mentally and physically taxing it is being chased all around the pocket. Plus in today’s NFL there’s no guantee that the sack won’t be called for a 15 yard penalty because you blew funyan breath into the face of Peyton Manning.

          • Adam

            Agree to disagree then. But I’m almost sure you ask any person who’s played QB at any level and they’ll tell you that 10 times out of 10 they’d rather throw an intentional grounding than taking a blindside hit in the pocket. Taking a hit while intentionally grounding means you saw the hit coming and had time to do something about it. Sacks are another monster completely.

            The only way to beat a guy like Manning is to sack him. In his only loss this year, he was sacked 4 times. In the 5 games previous he was sacked 2 times total.

            There’s nothing wrong with intentionally grounding. They’re great for field position and are a good compensation for not getting a sack. But to any NFL team and coach, sacks are preferred. I’m not sure why this is even a discussion to be honest.

          • aub32

            You are missing my point. I never said sacks aren’t preferred. I’m saying there are times when there’s nothing the D can do. What can a D lineman do if as they are hitting the QB he throws the ball away? Are you trying to tell me that the majority of sacks that occur in the NFL are blindside hits? I don’t need to have played in the NFL to know that’s not the case. Also, there are some QBs that are just hard to sack. Did you see the Raiders game? Do you really think any D line is going to chase down Pryor? You have to be realistic. Your stat line about Peyton is a good point, but he lost because he got hurt. He didn’t get hurt in the 4th sack. He got hurt early. Getting hurt is unpredictable, and can happen on the 1st sack or the 12th sack. I love sacks as much and likely more than the next guy. However, they aren’t the be all end all. I’m not going to slight the defense because they couldn’t catch the fastest guy on the field but managed to keep him from making a big play or fault them when a QB gets rid of the ball early.

          • Adam

            Sorry, I got you mixed up with anon.

      • theycallmerob

        Our OLBs have the fewest sacks and lowest rush % of any 34 team in the league playing our style of D; that’s pretty unacceptable (Kempski wrote on this last week). Curry and Cox help cover that, but our scheme relies on the OLBs primarily

        • Dominik

          Love it when the feeling you have is underpinned with facts. Altough, like I wrote in previous comments, I like Barwin and think he would be a good OLB #2, we need a OLB #1.

          Maybe Cole takes a paycut and accepts a rotational role, but he can’t be an Eagle earning this much and bring so little. I don’t like to say this, because Cole leaves it all on the field, but he earns 12 sacks/year money, he can’t deliver 1 in 9 games.

          You have to wonder, though, why Cole would accept a huge paycut if he can sign with a 4-3 team that could use him as a pass-rushing DE, a position he has proven to be good at.

          • Adam

            I’ve got no qualms with the Birds sending Cole out to pasture and letting him settle in with a 4-3 contender if he can latch on. I think the Eagles have done their due dilligence with Cole and have given him more than a fair shot to prove his worth.

          • cliff henny

            cole’s future is pretty murky. sal is 6.6m but 4.8m dead. trading him is same as cutting, take all that dead money hit. what do the eagles owe him, is a good question. the guy has made over 30m from his time here, if they decide to have him ride pine for a yr, nickle rush sub, i cant argue with that.

          • RIP illa

            Starting think that last part of what you said is the best move. I think you try and get him to restructure but I doubt it will happen as he has no reason too. So move Graham, hopefully for pick(s) to a team like Atlanta, restructure Mecc, move Cole to back up LOLB. He can’t cover but can play the run and I think it’ll be easier for him to handle RB to the flat assignments vs TEs and slots. Last step…Draft future stud OLB.

          • cliff henny

            graham is 3.3m sal, 3.4m dead…and then have to pay someone to replace him, and when trading, you take the dead hit. i’d just ride his out too.

          • nicksaenz1

            That’s been the biggest issue when looking at this 3-4 switch. There’s a significant amount of money invested/dead money into two players who play the same spot and both aren’t very good at the new spot. One will have to go after the season I think.

          • aub32

            Do you think anyone would even be willing to trade for Graham?

          • nicksaenz1

            Yeah, a 4-3 team. He showed last year he’s effective in a 4-3. Dude needs reps. I can’t see more than a 4th for him, but better than nothing. Biggest hindrance to his value is the 3-4.

            EDIT: He’s also a former first rd draft pick. He’s got talent. But it’s going to show elsewhere. That said, if he or Cole are traded/cut, I think Cole goes.

          • aub32

            I agree he has value, but I don’t know if teams will trade for him. They may be fine just sitting pat and waiting for his release. Remember Asante? We basically had to give him away.

          • nicksaenz1

            Asante was at a different crossroads, though. We brought in guys to replace him. I also don’t recall his contract situation. Considering his cap and dead $ numbers are virtually identical, they’d prob just keep him over cutting him next year.

          • RIP illa

            Yeah just had to lay it out to Cliff about the Asante thing. That was a bad play by the FO and no this is not hindsight! They had Detroit on the hook for a /me but Howie passed and we ended up just trying to get rid of him for a 7th the year after. Bad FO move and nothing else!!!

          • aub32

            That’s definitely hindsight. Had the super CB trio worked then you would not be saying we should have made that trade. We had 3 pro bowl CBs on one squad. There isn’t a staff in the league that wouldn’t want to see what they could do with that, especially one that many predicted as a SB favorite. Did it work? Nope. Were they wrong for at least trying? Nope. I still say it was a coaching blunder. A better DC could have gotten those 3 to work together.

          • RIP illa

            You’re crazy. It’s not hindsight!!! Asante was becoming a headache as soon as he found out the FO signed Nnam and expressed his displeasure to the media before and all through the season!!! Not to mention the fact that Detroit called us w/ the deal before the trade deadline were plenty of games had been played and evidence gathered that the super trio was not working out as intended!!! Not to mention the fact of simple common sense!!! Let’s say I have one iPod/iPhone dock (just go with it), then I buy two more that are similar. Then the 1st one that I had starts acting up and causing problems plus its kinda showing that I may have one too many and the odds of me not oeeping it or growing by the week…and someone comes along and offers me $200 dollars for the 1st iPod/iPhone dock…I’D BE A COMPLETE IDIOT NOT TO TAKE THAT OFFER!!! I still have 2 more!!! THAT’S THE PART THAT’S NOT HINDSIGHT! Now if I don’t take that offer I’m a fool, but I’m worse if I turn around and later on sell the 1st iPod/iPhone dock for $25 cause it’s causing even more problems etc, ect. That’s the part that can be viewed as hindsight! The not taking the Deteoit deal was just plain stupid. You can try to defend it and Howie all you like but it doesn’t change the fact!!!

          • aub32

            You are being ridiculous. Your iPod has no chance of tearing its ACL or rolling an ankle. The defense was new. We had no idea how things would turn out. The team was rolling in the last 4 games and could have potentially made noice in the playoffs. Like I said, it was a poor coaching job. A real DC would have had the respect of his players and the knowledge to use them correctly. You can claim it wasn’t hindsight, but how many people even weeks into the season said the Eagles had the most talented trio of CBs in the league. Also, you know now that all 3 guys finished without getting injured. The Eagles didn’t know that then. They thought they had the talent to win the SB. They didn’t want to blow that by having a CB blow a tire and they traded away a pro bowl starter. Again you can say none of that matters because in hindsight no one got injured, and we didn’t make the playoffs. Congrats.

          • RIP illa

            Wouldn’t a player being injured be the equivalent to a machine breaking down in my analogy??? Um yeah…anyway, if the team was coming together so much and no one was injured and we had an Allstar trio, and wanted to have that trio in case a CB blew a tire, and we almost made the playoffs, and could have one the SB if not for poor coaching…then why didn’t we comeback and try and do it all over again and just fix the coaching mistakes??? Better yet, why was Asante shipped out of here for a 7th and w/ and pretty quickly??? Why was he traded at all??? That’s using hindsight to refute your point of view!!! Also, foresight is a qualification that most leaders of organizations, or departments should have in some form or capacity. There was none!!! Like I said. A 2nd rd pick was a good enough pick that I would hope that our GM would now have the common sense to take and should have had the common sense to take back then!!! He didn’t. There were only two ways to play that. A high value pick or roll the dice on the allstar trio even w/ evidence mounting that it was not paying off as one would hope. He chose to roll the dice and not follow the more than safe bet. Come on it was a 2nd rd pick for crying out loud (how do you even begin to defend that???)! I remember being pissed off when that info was reported and it still doesn’t sit well w/ me now…btw, guess me being pissed off at the time of the report was hindsight too, eventhough the report came out before Asante was traded to ATL.

            But I’ll give it to you…it’s all hindsight. We’ll w/o hindsight how do we evaluate and organization or a person w/in that organization or any organization if not going off their past and current records??? I guess we just have to look into the future or never evaluate at all!!! We can only go by past and current records, actions and inactions aub! That’s how it is for everybody whether it be their work life or personal life. So keep screaming hindsight this and hindsight that, but it really doesn’t matter…whether hindsight or not makes not one bit of difference. What counts are the results!!!

          • cliff henny

            doubt anyone on here understands trade value for players. kolb is a 2nd?! i like to fantasy gm with the best of them, but tossing out player trade for picks is impossible.

          • RIP illa

            This is getting silly now. Where gonna have to agree to disagree. i could see you bringing up the fantasy GM thing ( although I don’t agree) w/ Graham, but to bring it up w/ Asante is just is just ridiculous!!! Especially when there were confirmed reports that Detroit offered us a 2nd the season before he was shipped out!!!

          • cliff henny

            well, rip, we arent real gms, so fantasy. sure howie reads these and thinks we’re dellusional lunatics for some trades and draft orders we make up. but, it’s fun! you have 1 on me w/ assante, dont recall that…probably should of taken a 2nd in hindsite. but eagles were in super bowl or bust mode. sure trade wouldnt of been popular at time.

          • Andy124

            fwiw, when Nnamdi and DRC were acquired, it was initially assumed that Asante would be traded. I think Asante himself thought that to be the case. Most expected it and thought it was a pretty darn logical course of action.

            Relating to another conversation that’s been going on this topic which I’ve only skimmed, if you trust my memory on the subject, then strictly speaking, suggesting today that Asante should have been traded at that time would not qualify as hindsight, as it was expected/suggested at the time. I was in favor of a trade because I love draft picks, but I don’t claim to have expected those three to play so poorly together either.

            I think citations of their poor play together as a reason to do anything would fall under the hindsight label.

          • aub32

            I agree. If you just wanted the draft picks, then fine. However, claiming you knew that the 3 couldn’t work together is an opinion that wasn’t shared by many. People who suggested the trade at the time just figured there was no need for so much at one position. The fact that the trio would be abyssmal was not part of the conversation.

          • cliff henny

            do remember assante trade talk, not detroit 2nd. not sure i would of been in favor, assante with nnamdi and dcr, mean we all thought that was super bowl secondary in the makings. always difficult to judge your reactions to a trade 4 yrs afterwards. i know then, i wanted all3 to play

          • Andy124

            Yeah, I don’t remember hearing any specific offers that we were turning down. But back then my only sources were ESPN, philly.com and comcast sportsnet.

          • cliff henny

            big difference is, olb will be addressed thru draft, these guys just arent in FA. so upgrading wont cost much. let’s say both were safeties, and signed byrd to 9m, then you are talking a crapload at 1 position. plus, graham is riding pine, so they’ve already shown they’ll eat his salary. cole can still be productive as nickle rusher, backup, expensive, but not a waste.

          • nicksaenz1

            I’d rather trade or cut Cole. Trade unlikely due to age, but I’d take a 6th or 7th for him. Save the 1.8mil and pay a rookie or two, or take a flier on a second-tier guy who can be “coached up”. Can’t have two guys eating up 10mil next year in salary when both aren’t that good at the position, and one is “old” by NFL standards. Makes no sense.

            NOTE: I’m aware the dead money issue is a significant issue and it’s very possible nothing is done after this season about the two. But if I had to pick, that’s what I would do.

          • cliff henny

            cole does make some sense. my assumption is that if you reduce cole’s workload, make him situational pass rusher, might see better rush stats. plus, backup OLB and mentor to rookie 1st or 2nd rd pick, can that be replaced for 1.8m? i’d ride cole out 1 more yr. he is 100% gone after ’14

          • nicksaenz1

            I hear ya, but is there a real difference in production between Cole’s reduced workload or Graham’s? I understand the mentor POV, but I don’t put so much stock in it. Plenty of other defensive vets that can mentor. It’s not like Cole’s so good at the position that he should be teaching others, anyway.

          • cliff henny

            what has Graham ever done? take 1 game out, the cinci game, and the guy has done squat. bet 99% of nfl fans dont even know who he is! we overvalue him because all we see is that 1st round pick, earl thomas and JPP bs too. cole has 10 yr track record. think cole could bring 1.8m worth of production. i’m basically moving on from Graham, just figuring most economical way.

          • nicksaenz1

            Aside from grade out as our best rusher last season? If that was because of the cincy game only, then I’ll happily stand corrected. He’s 3.4 salary or 3.3 dead money. Hard to see a scenario outside of a trade where he’s not on the team. You’re not paying the guy 3.3 to be cut when he’s 3.4 to keep and see if something clicks in the last worthwhile year of his deal. He does nothing next year, he’s gone for 1.7. The fact that Cole has a 10 year track record that includes recent significant decline is reason enough to move on. He’s old and he’s not worth 6.6 and we can’t sit here and say definitively that he’s even worth 4.8. Trade to a 4-3 team is ideal, but at 31, this 3-4 thing just isn’t going to click. I understand you’re ready to move on from Graham. I am, too. But I’m not as attached to Cole as some, and if either Graham or Cole are gone next year because of a release, it’s Cole, I believe.

          • cliff henny

            graham did beat up on some bad teams/tackles at end. cant see why someone would take his contract, and cutting him gains nothing, while he could serve roll if couple guys go down. agree with cole, i’d ride it out, think he’s worth 1.8m as nickle sun rusher, but wont blink if cut. 4.8m dead is a big nut to just clear 1.8m, is all.

          • nicksaenz1

            No argument on the last part. But you can also only keep 53, 46 on game day. If we do draft a rush OLB in first or second, ain’t no way we keep the rook, Cole AND Graham. As for Graham’s contract, it’s not like it’s guaranteed. He’s got all of his guaranteed portion. So if he pans out, great, if someone lost a 6th, hopefully a 5th rd pick, not a huge loss to take to try out a guy who was first round talent.

          • cliff henny

            i cant see graham having trade value. having him on back end of roster equates to no charge. if couple guys go down, rather have him than a casey matthews level player, cause that’s who replaces him, 700k de-activated talent level guy. dont really care if graham gets deactivated for 16 games, it’s spent money cap wise.

          • nicksaenz1

            So, no matter how you look at it, you always come back to the likelihood that he’s here next year. We don’t have to agree on trade value, esp since it’s not the likeliest of scenarios. The real point is, you’re basically saying that if anyone goes after this year, it’s Cole, because Graham isn’t likely to go anywhere. At least that’s my interpretation of the point you just made. And the original point I made was that if anyone goes, it’s Cole. So, if I’m correct in my interpretation, we agree on bigger picture, disagree on semantics.

          • cliff henny

            no…work is slow…i wish to continue arguing! agree to my every point, then maybe i’ll partially agree with you, learned this from dutch

          • Andy124

            i disagree

          • nicksaenz1

            Oh man, then you should know I’ve become desensitized to such thinking.

          • cliff henny

            lol…where is that crazy cat? taking a day off from PM for every foles td?

          • nicksaenz1

            Taking time to heel the ego. Think about it. Foles hasn’t thrown a pick or fumbled. He just threw 7 td’s in a game. He’s showing at least average arm strength to hit the deep ball, and, oh yeah, he’s doing everything Dutch said he couldn’t! Couple that with the fact that his boy, Captain SoCal, Mr. 8yr HS/College starter, the Leader of all Leaders, has committed 75% of the turnovers in 4 quarters that Foles did in 7 games last year, and yeah, I’d say he’s in hiding. At least until the high from Foles’ 7td game wears off.

          • cliff henny

            hope foles backs it up w/ 300+ 3-4 tds.

          • nicksaenz1

            I’m hoping so. I’ve got so much talk invested in this kid haha. But more importantly, him becoming and staying the guy is incredibly beneficial for the franchise, the benefits of which we have discussed at length.

          • cliff henny

            feel ya…sort of me with ’14 draft qbs. even if it’s slightly south of tampa, guy is showing improvement. not like he’s finished getting better…especially with kelly. still wont blink if they trade to get a hundley, think this kelly guy has a pretty good idea how it all works.

          • nicksaenz1

            Eh, I’m torn on that. Because you have a guy who you know can play at this level. Proven. I’m not saying that any of these ’14 guys can’t, but it’s like starting over. There no Andrew Luck or RG3 in this draft from what I’ve heard. In fairness, not a huge college football guy.

          • cliff henny

            just meant i trust kelly. heck, he walk down sidewalk, roshambo me, and i’d apologize for getting in his way

          • nicksaenz1

            Gotcha. Can’t say I don’t. He’s making some players out of people we were ready to put out to pasture.

          • RIP illa

            3.4 is better than 4.8. Don’t have to pay anyone else. Draft OLB, slide Cole to the bench and run w/ 3 like we’re doing this year. Or Draft OLB, move Cole to the bench, bring up Long as a back up!!!

          • cliff henny

            sure you do, he is on roster. sign another casey matthews like to replace graham, that’s basically paying that roster position 4.2m for the production of a 800k level player. cole at least has some savings, so you could find his replacement cost with the savings, but i doubt it. it’s not just dead money, it’s the replacement value. nnamdi was cut, 4m dead, but saved 11m, basically got c-wills and fletcher for his savings.

          • RIP illa

            I think I get what you’re trying to say but still don’t think they have to pay another guy. We currently have 4 OLBs on the roster, and that’s including Long on the PS. That’s what we’ve been running w/ all year and will continue to run w/ barring injury. Drafting an OLB, which mostly everyone agrees is a big need on this team and something that needs to be done whether we move Graham or not…will either and on to Graham’s numbers if he stays, making it 3.3 + whatever the drafted OLB is signed to. Or would make it 3.4 (if Graham is moved) + whatever the drafted OLB is signed to. So you’re basically giving up 100k for an extra pick. If that pick is a 4th or 5th then I think it’s definitely worth it. At no point in time, during either one of these scenarios nor the scenarios listed before hand do you have to bring in another OLB. We’d either be rolling w/ 5 if Graham stays, or back to 4 if he goes!!!

          • cliff henny

            you cut casey matthews, who’s nothing on field or in sal cap in ’14 and bring on olb. everyone moves down a slot, drafted guy for cole, cole to graham’s roll, graham to matthews, matthews to the woodchipper. you have to pay 53 guys. play the drafted guys, bench is expensive, no doubt, but better for cap. cutting graham makes no sense, alittle sense in moving cole, cause it does free up 1.8m to use to replace him. trade value is nominal pick like a sop or samuels trade.

          • RIP illa

            I’m sorry, I thought that I had made it clear that by me saying “move” Graham meant that I wanted to trade him not cut him. Personally I would have loved for Graham to have made the move to MLB this year. I couldn’t think of a better thumper to destroy guards since he has already proved that he could win the battles w: them and tackle since his rookie year. If that we’re to happen then there’d be a use for him and better yet, it gets Matthews off of the team!!! But I think his flaws in coverage this year would negate that move from happening. Having multiple 5ths that could be turned into another 4th (and it wouldn’t be a daunting task) is anything but nominal. And this is why GMs talk anyway, cause if you look at a team like ATL who signed an aging on the decline Osi…they could definitely use a couple guys like Graham who could set the cornerstones for the teams future at the position. You gotta figure, a team like ATL, is already gonna draft a guy to handle the DE duties, but yet they still have nothing on the other side of him…enter a player like Graham. Dude this makes way too much sense (not saying that the ATL thing would be a definite). And im just playing it safe by saying a 5th. I think that You’re looking at saving pennies (compared to the amount of cap room we have and are going to have).

          • cliff henny

            5th for Graham, that’s some solid fantasy gm’g there. consider boldin got a 6th, samuels a 7th. atlanta is giving up a 5th and paying a guy who has little to no production on the field over his 4 yrs 3.5m? Howie needs you on speeddial…kidding. i am figuring graham has zero trade value. maybe…nfl trades are about impossible to figure out.

          • nicksaenz1

            Boldin and Samuel were farther along in there careers. Graham hasn’t finished first deal yet and is in his prime years. A 5th rd flier for a 4-3 DE isn’t fantasy. Might not happen, but it’s not fantasy. A 3rd is fantasy. Hell, didn’t we give a 6th for a guy who’s barely seen the field in 4 years? (Benn)

          • aub32

            Yes but both Samuel and Boldin had done something. What has Graham done? He was an efficient rusher on a terrible defense last year. Those guys aren’t hard to find in both FA and the draft. Some of us vastly overrate some of our players. In order to get anything for Graham, we are going to need more than one team who thinks he’s worth trading for despite showing nothing this year and having one really good game in 2012 that significantly boosted his stats. I don’t know many teams that trade for potential. Teams prefer to just go into the draft.

          • RIP illa

            Who does ATL have at their DE spots??? Yes their gonna draft one, most likely. Already been covered. But who’s on the other side. Who’s that guy who’s a straight up solid player and can still get to the QB??? Like I said, not saying it’s going to happen, but it makes more sense for it to happen than not. Plus they now know that their nowhere close to a SB team and need to start looking ahead to the future! Enter graham or a graham like player!!!!!

          • aub32

            But what has Graham done to justify going for him and not a FA. Teams will upgrade their rosters. That’s no doubt, but you overestimate what Graham is. He isn’t some guy that started and had a double digit sack season. He’s a guy who has done well in very limited action. That screams role player not potential starter. Teams don’t often trade for role players in the offseason because there will be plenty to be had without having to give up a draft pick.

          • nicksaenz1

            You actually don’t need more than one, you need just one. A lot of teams trade for potential. We’re one of them. Remember Arrelious Benn?

          • RIP illa

            All those trades you listed we’re horrible due to bad GM mismanagement…yes even Boldin. We’re we’re offered a 2nd for Asante the year before we gave him to Atlanta!!! A f’n 2nd!!! But no Howie wanted to let the experiment play out while seeing if he could get them to cough up a 1st. It was clear that Nnam, DRC, and Sam were not a match made in heaven and that he was getting unhappier and gonna be moved. He (Asante) came out and was positioning himself for that since he 1st heard we signed Nnam!!! Instead we get a 7th for an all-pro…yea

          • aub32

            We didn’t get a 5th for Soap. We basically traded up into the 5th from the 6th. Given the Pats have SB aspirations, that trade up may not be such a big jump. Also look at the circumstances. The Pats are a playoff bound team that just suffered a major loss at NT. Their options were very limited. They also needed someone. The offseason is completely different. FA role players are everywhere ready to take minimum deals. The draft is also there to find those players. There’s no need for teams to pay more than what a player is worth. Context is very important.

          • RIP illa

            He only thing I agree w/ is that context is important. Like the context of Graham having NFL experience over a draft pick. Like the context of even if ATL drafts a DE, it’s most likely going to be a high pick and they still need a another guy on their roster to man the other DE spot cause they have nothing there! Like the context of, in Graham’s price range, he’s right up top in the FA market, especially in being young, having experience, making an impact, and ceiling. Like the context of ATL already tried drafting an older higher prices veteran last year (Osi) and have gotten very little return on that investment. Like the context of ATL has to start looking for the future, like the context of there are other teams in a similar position than just ATL.

          • aub32

            Again this is why I say you and others are overrating our players. If Graham was so good, why isn’t he seeing the field? Curry doesn’t fit this scheme either, but he is seeing the field. We have gone nickel a lot more in recent weeks. Yet I don’t hear Graham’s name being called. Is Trent Cole the great road block that Graham has no chance of outperforming? Again I ask, outside of a game or two when Graham picked on one specific player, what has he done? You can’t just throw him in Osi’s class. Osi has produced.

          • RIP illa

            Osi produced at one point and time and always sucked against the run. Osi hasn’t done sh!t in years…that’s yearssssss, plural, and on the downside of his career. I don’t over value Graham. Saying that a guy is tradable and that we could possibly get a 5th for him based on age and ceiling is not over valuing. That’s stating a distinct probability. Listing out reasons and logic why it could happen is not over valuing either. Just like I don’t think that closing the door completely on the probability and even the possibility is under valuing! We just see different things. Mainly me and Nick being right to keep the doors open for probability/possibility and you and cliff being soooo wrong for closing off all possibilities :-)

            And it’s very fair to throw Osi in there as we’re talking about a team that signed him this offseason and he and Graham would be playing the same position of DE. Why hasn’t Graham produced…I don’t know, cause maybe he’s learning a new position…maybe that new position has more responsibilities than just rush the QB, as our LOLB position does. Maybe because although we have been playing nickel all year, we really have been putting a greater emphasis on a traditional nickel package since the last month and 1/2 than we dried at the start of the season when we ran a 3-3-5 nickel package. Maybe cause even when we run a 4-2-5 nickel he’s still behind Barwin, pretty much leaving him in the same position that he was in last year. And last year he was valued off of generating pressure more so than sack numbers. I believe in this same thread you’re defending pressure over just sack numbers…I could be wrong! So in limited snaps he’s basically doing a bit less than Cole??? And notice how through all this I never promoted Graham past anything but a “secondary” DE and 5th round trade pick. I’m not trying to make him seem like he’s the solution for a team like ATL. I’m just presenting him as a very viable piece that they can use to help bolster their line play. I don’t think that’s to far off from the truth, if off at all.

          • aub32

            First off let’s tackle your Osi point. Osi has contributed to winning 2 SBs, one as recent as 2010. In 2011 he had 9 sacks in just 9 games. Last year his production was down, but he sat behind Tuck and JPP. That’s not the same as being stuck behind Cole and Barwin. Most of Graham’s production came in two games in 2012. They are not in the same league.
            ….
            You seem to think that your ability to come up with reasons for why someone should trade for Graham means that it can happen. Many things “can” happen, but they don’t. Football is not a trade heavy sport. The players that are traded during the offseason are big names or people you’ve never heard of (swapping trash for trash) There is absolutely nothing Graham has done to stand out above the many FAs that will be available. Even once that’s dried up teams will still want to hold onto their picks rather than just trade for another team’s trash.

            NFL teams aren’t stupid. They know Graham has no place on this team. They know we will likely cut him. So they won’t be looking to trade for him. It’s the same reason we will wait for Byrd. It’s the same reason Asante only brought in a 7th round pick. The Eagles have no leverage. That’s why I said in order to trade him you will need more than one team to actually see value. Getting a 7th rounder days before draft isn’t a trade. It’s charity.

          • RIP illa

            I’ll only address this as everything else has been said including the fact that it’s not just ATL I’m talking about (don’t know how many times that needs to be said before it sinks in).

            My “coming up w/ reasons for why it could happen” are just exactly that…why it COULD happen. Meaning, once again, the possibilities or probabilities!!! THIS DOES NOT EQUAL CERTAINTY and I have NEVER said or eluded to this scenario being a certainty! You have reasons for why it could not happen. So I guess using your hypocritical logic…that makes you right over me or makes your reasoning that much more valid than mine and equals certainty in your book as you have just shown in the post I’m replying to. SMH! Ok you win and have shown that the probability nor possibility does not exist, no matter how many valid reasons are listed. In fact you have shown that the only reasons, which are Valid at all are yours!!!

            Seriously hypocritical and flawed thinking…even if you are proven to be right in the future.

          • aub32

            I’ll keep this short since your feelings seem hurt. First off, I’m not dealing in hypotheticals. I detracted your comparison of Osi and Graham which I found ridiculous for the reasons I previously stated.

            I also said that you and others are overrating Graham. That’s not a hypothetical. That’s my opinion. You have a right to think highly of him (or not so highly) just like I have a right to think you are overrating or underrating a player.

            I pointed out that you were forgetting context with some of the trades you referenced, a common mistake made by many on this site and others. I attempted to inform of the context, and I guess somewhere along the way your feelings got hurt. I also pointed out that there are very few trades in this league. That is indeed a fact. I also pointed out how people make good and bad cases on why trades should go down, but yet there are still few trades in this league. Again a fact. I also pointed out why there are so few trades in this league. I never stated Graham won’t get traded. I spoke out against your comparisons and stated some things to counter your point. That’s no need to get your feelings hurt and call me a hypocrite.

            PS ok so I wasn’t really that short.

          • RIP illa

            Thanks, now I can wipe away my tears and feel good about myself and be all sunshine and lollipops again. Lol! Get outta here w/ my feelings being hurt as u made it a point to repeatedly say. I believe I pointed out that your thinking and logic were hypocritical and gave substantiated reasons why…not the same as you being a hypocrite. But if that’s how you took it then I apologize.

          • cliff henny

            plus about 1.5m in cap relief, for about 15 spots. graham gets none of that. and trading team would be on hook for 3.5m, sop, was 600k and free to cut at end of the season. really see little trade value in graham, when he could be or similar player gotten for no picks and smaller contract.

          • aub32

            Exactly!

          • Dominik

            Kudos to Coles agent. The guy really has an annoying contract from a team standpoint. :)

            Nothing new for Cowboys fans, of course, but Howie and Banner usually don’t make such contracts (look at the contracts for McCoy, DJax and even Barwin).

          • aub32

            In Howie’s defense, Cole got that contract coming off of 4 double digit sack seasons when we ran a 4-3. He also happened to be our best D lineman against the run, and the D line was the most feared unit in the NFL. Really hard in my opinion to predict such a drastic decline in such a short period.

          • Dominik

            And that’s legit point. But look at McCoy and DJax, two huge weapons on offense. He still managed those contracts to be acceptable for the team.

          • aub32

            DJax didn’t have much leverage after his 2011 performance and likely got more than he would on some rental “prove it” deal he could have gotten elsewhere. I’m not sure on the McCoy numbers and when is the earliest we can get out of that without a huge hit, but of course any deal where you lock up your best player is going to look good as long as they remain healthy.

          • Andy124

            I think there was a little overcompensation too. The Eagles had been so devout about not giving guys entering their 30’s big contracts. It was hard from a PR standpoint. Hard from a human standpoint. And hard from a football standpoint to see Dawkins play at a high level for a couple more years and fail miserably trying to replace him.

            I really believe that fed in to Trent’s contract.

          • cliff henny

            every team has a couple over paid vets at the end of their usefullness. it’s not the end of the world. herrmanns, cole and graham come off for cheap after ’14, just an expensive bench for a yr. dont think Barwin, McCoy or Jax are bad contracts-jax just needs extended. teams will line up around the block to pay him 8m a yr.

          • Dominik

            I don’t think that Barwin, McCoy and DJax have bad contracts – from a team standpoints. It’s not like Roseman bamboozled those three, but those are good contracts. Coles contract isn’t good for the team.

          • cliff henny

            oh, sorry, misunderstood.

          • theycallmerob

            i’d still take 1.8 mil savings, unless they ship graham out

          • nicksaenz1

            Considering it can be re-invested in a rental or a draft pick, I’m with you. I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s out after this season. He or Graham, but one of the two is gone after the year.

          • theycallmerob

            just getting to read below, but according to Cap Cap’n Cliff Henny Graham would be an equal hit (3.3/3.4) to play vs. trade/cut. That + age would lead me to keep Graham. Not as if Cole is outplaying him for those snaps anyway.

          • nicksaenz1

            Yeah, makes the most sense. If we could trade Graham that would help, too. At least get a half decent pick. 4th maybe.

          • cliff henny

            i dont want graham on field, just dont understand money-wise why they cut him.

          • cliff henny

            ok, but you have to pay someone else equal to what you can get for cole at 1.8m. sop made 3.5m! i get he’s expensive, but not worthless.

          • theycallmerob

            as you know Cliff, I fully expect rush OLB to be the biggest defensive need (and arguably, team need) going into the offseason; as in, can’t be addressed other than an upgrade in personnel

          • cliff henny

            oh, not arguing that. wr/olb are 1/2 or 2/1 in draft/perfect world, with ~25yr old top vet impact safety taking another Eagle friendly contract. that’ll push cole in graham’s current role, heck de-activate graham 16 times. why take 10m in dead, can work around it.

          • theycallmerob

            I agree with everything you said

          • anon

            hopefully when it rains it pours. However i think chipwagon (or someone) said it took him 5 second to get to the qb — that’s no good really.

          • nicksaenz1

            He’s not going to have a choice but to accept a pay cut once he’s released from Philly, which is likely after next season. No one is going to pay him what he makes this year given that he’s over 30 and is noticably in decline.

        • aub32

          I said pressure as a team. Unlike a lot of fans I don’t care where the pressure comes from. Seems like so many of you (I mean you in the general sense) care how things are done. I want results and for those results to yield wins. If Cole is doing nothing but eating blocks and Curry and Cox are breaking through the line that’s still pressure. I agree we still need our OLB stud. Hopefully we get him this offseason. However, we have manufactured pressure this season, especially given what we thought of this defense at the start of the season. Fans are just getting greedy at this point.

          • theycallmerob

            Getting greedy? did you read the article?? 22nd in adjusted sack rate, last in league getting sacks from OLBs, 14 total from the DL + Graham/Cole/Barwin. If anything, of the required skillset for an OLB it seemed the coaches and fans were least concerned about the pass rush.

            To say “the performance is unacceptable” is not outside of reasonable expectations, particularly those based from sound data analysis. Don’t see why you’re taking so much issue with this point.

          • aub32

            You keep pointing at the OLB position. I agree that’s our biggest need, but to say we aren’t manufacturing “pressure” is what I disagree with. Again I don’t care where the pressure comes from. Also sacks aren’t the only way to measure pressure. Eli stole at least 4 sacks away from this team, and that’s just from the grounding penalties that were called. Do you remember the beginning of the season? We were all wondering where the hell we were going to manufacture pressure from. We didn’t have the faith in Thorton that we do now. We all knew Soap can’t get after the passer. Also, have you factored in the context of the numbers? The D struggled early because of the scheme change. We’ve played Romo, Peyton, Pryor, Rivers, and Eli twice. They aren’t really giving up many sacks, especially with Eli stealing nearly every opportunity.

          • theycallmerob

            I don’t disagree with your points re: the teams/QBs played, and the “hidden stats”. But yes, my point was solely on OLB because that’s what the scheme is tailored for. Cole should be abusing 1on1 matchups, and Graham/Cole have seen a number of snaps together even in their “more familiar” 4 down front.
            The sole point I was making is that those counted on to bring the heat are currently the ones playing the worst in that aspect. An upgrade in personnel is badly needed.
            I’ve been banging the table for a few weeks now that our biggest (aka 1st rd) need is a stud rush OLB- more than QB, and more than S*
            * – caveat being that we will somehow play our way out of a high enough pick for Teddy/Mariota, and Kelly won’t just “take a guy” unless it’s *his* guy

    • nicksaenz1

      Could you imagine if Matt Barkley didn’t throw 4 interceptions in such limited time?

      • G_WallyHunter

        HAHA, great point, take his out and that’s +5! good for what in the league..

        • Adam

          10th haha

          • G_WallyHunter

            Ah only 3 spots up, well encouraging, better than 32nd lol

          • nicksaenz1

            At least it allows for misleading terms like “top 10″, that make it sound way better than it is haha.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Eagles? Top 10 in anything? What is this? 2010?

          • nicksaenz1

            Haha. As far as D is concerned, top 10 in anything is remarkable.

          • nicksaenz1

            Include his two lost fumbles and we’re suddenly in 6th overall haha.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Barkley lost 2 fumbles?
            Wait a minute, we have 14 giveaways and BeachBoy Barkley is responsible for 6 of them? Jeeze..

          • nicksaenz1

            That’s your dude. Actually, that’s Dutch’s dude. He’s turned the ball over almost as many times in 4 quarters as Foles did all last season, yet Foles is the turnover king! HAHAHAHA

          • G_WallyHunter

            Ya not my dude lol, I’ve never advocated for him on this site. His appearance in the Dallas game made sure of that…

          • nicksaenz1

            Just breakin’ stones. We all know that’s Dutch’s and BBaS’s boy. Both of whom are MIA.

          • Andy124

            Nah, BBaaS isn’t high on anybody but Vick. She’s actually taken the time to disagree with Dutch on Barkley a couple of times that I’ve seen.

          • nicksaenz1

            Could’ve sworn I’ve seen some Barkley love, but, whatever. Small potatoes.

          • Andy124

            Dutch may have swayed her, I don’t know. She seems to defer to him a little, which is crazy because she has more football smarts in one big butt cheek then he has in totality.

            Her only problem is that she is extremely Vick biased and can’t see her own bias. That bias blindness makes her unable to even try to balance herself. She’ll be good to have around once Vick is gone.

          • nicksaenz1

            Spot. On…. Although, I don’t think Dutch is clueless about football. Just QBs.

          • cliff henny

            he loves geno smith. who is making barkley look like chump change in TO department. nyj’s defense is saving his bacon

          • nicksaenz1

            Which is tough. Barkley is averaging 1.5 turnovers….PER QUARTER!

          • G_WallyHunter

            Are they both Vick lovers? Nowhere to be seen in recent days?

            Their doctors may have advised them to stay away from this site, citing high blood pressure.

          • nicksaenz1

            BBaS is a Vick lover. Dutch is just a Foles hater. He’s not as high on Vick as the other few are. He’s all up on Mark Barkley’s nuts though. All up on them.

          • G_WallyHunter

            LMAO the analysis of those two, you guys have it to a T,
            very large sample size, unlike Foles

          • cliff henny

            he was funny to chat with after barkley’s mop up duty game. he sounded just like alot of us did with foles last yr. he looked good considering circumstances

          • nicksaenz1

            Funny how that works, isn’t it? Even funnier is how Barkley actually had all the weapons and a healthy O-line at his disposal.

        • nicksaenz1

          Here’s a little funny from Matthew Berry’s Love/Hate:

          Green Bay Packers: No team in the NFL has fewer interceptions this season than the Packers. And get this: Since Week 5 (when Foles came in for the injured Michael Vick), in games that Foles has both started and finished (so, you know, no Matt Barkley), the Eagles have allowed an average of minus-three points per game to opposing defenses.
          Love the dig at Barkley lol

      • Dominik

        I wondered where those 14 TO came from. Barkley obviously plays a huge role in that. Besides his 4, the numbers are ok. Especially with the INTs, we lost a few fumbles but not a huge problem here.

        • JofreyRice

          That is one area where I’m really impressed with the new staff. Really, besides the lethargy and disinterest during Reid’s final year here, the sloppiness was so frustrating to watch. A 14 year head coach couldn’t teach his players ball security, or motivate them to practice it?

          • Adam

            Woah.. Praise from Caesar.

      • Eagles4Life

        DUDE lol

      • anon

        don’t forget about the fumbles.

        • nicksaenz1

          I did. Got a total on Barkley fumbles?

          • southy

            there was that one in the red zone recovered right on the sideline. and like 5 dropped snaps, but idk how many he lost.

          • nicksaenz1

            Fumbled thrice, lost two. Barkley accounts for 6 turnovers in what, 4.5 combined quarters? Awful.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Ew…
            what a steal at the top of 4th round -_-

          • nicksaenz1

            Yeah, makes that Foles pick in the 3rd look downright awful…

          • G_WallyHunter

            It was a terrible pick, plenty of 3rd round picks have thrown 7 TDs in a game, come on.

            Dime a dozen these days

          • nicksaenz1

            So much so, that Dutch wants to see how long it takes until Foles does it again. Just like the other 6 guys repeated the feat…. He makes it too easy, sometimes.

          • G_WallyHunter

            Ya Dutch along with some other analysts that were in the “What they’re saying” yesterday, that baffles me..
            What does Foles have to do to get some credit lol
            I wonder what they say when he throws for 4 or 5 this weekend..

          • nicksaenz1

            First, let’s hope he does. Secondly, we all know he won’t get the credit. He’s an unsexy 3rd round pick. He’s got a huge uphill battle to get national respect. Solidifying the starting job once and for all would be a good start.

    • Sean

      Craziest thing about your post is that KC was 32nd last year… What are they now? Gotta be Top 5 in forcing TO’s

      • Adam

        #1 in turnover differential. +15 (1st in takeways, 2nd in giveaways). Another kudos to Andy. I know some people like to say that he inherited a great defense and all he did was put in a non-turnover prone QB, but he’s got that defense playing better as well.

  • Sean

    I wonder what were Isaac’s metrics before he was traded? I’d imagine not near the top of this list. I still think that guy Sheil linked to calling that a ‘bad’ trade is crazy. Moved up a round in the draft and dumped a guy not producing and not worth the $..

    • cliff henny

      moved up ~15 spots, cleared PT for logan, and freed 1m from next yr’s cap, not bad for dead weight. Sop rec’d nice check to hold down NT till couple guys ready to take over.

    • aub32

      I was surprised that we were even able to trade him. I like that they brought him in. You needed someone to man that spot, and he was as good as anyone that I can recall available in FA. I like the move to move him even more. Don’t hold onto your mistakes and got something for a guy that wasn’t doing anything. Now our young guys are more ready to take over, and we move up into our money round:
      2013-Earl Wolff
      2012-Dennis Kelly
      2011-Dion Lewis
      2010-Riley Cooper

      No these guys aren’t superstars but they have shown the potential to be solid NFL players. What more can you ask from the 5th round?

      • anon

        he wasn’t good we just couldn’t get who we wanted which is ricky-jean francois who went to the colts. hopefully we’re a more appetizing place for FAs after this season.

        • aub32

          We picked up Soap prior to even looking at RJF, and they don’t even play the same position. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about. We looked at RJF to play opposite of Cox at the other DE spot. Soap was brought in to be the fill in NT.

        • RIP illa

          Doesn’t matter. Soap was their target all along. RJF was their target to challenge and hopefully take Thorton’s spot. Don’t have to worry about that next year, barring injury, as Thorton is ballin out!

  • Will

    Looks to me like Vinny Curry does just fine against the run….

    • ICDogg

      Curry is terrific but he is still a square peg in this defensive concept. They want, ideally, 3 big two-gappers up front. They need OLBs who can sack the QB while the DL keeps the OL occupied.

  • anon

    Clay Matthews is playing on sunday — now we’ll really get to see what this o-line looks like.

    • aub32

      He will likely still be rusty. {layers don’t usually miss a month then come in and ball out. Look at Miller. I’d still rather him be on the sideline.

  • ICDogg

    Clearly, this D is getting better than they were early on. The last 5 weeks have been much better than the first 4. They have plenty of issues to correct but I don’t see how you could expect any more progress in that amount of time than they have already had considering where they started from.

    • anon

      They are getting better, but quality of teams is way worse. EDIT: Note sure if they would have played worse than any other mid-tier team, which is an improvement.

      • ICDogg

        True. But the eye test tells me they are playing better and not making as many stupid mistakes. I think they are still in the somewhat below average category overall, but that’s better than pathetic.