Kelly: No Dropoff With Foles In the Game

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One of Chip Kelly‘s most telling statements about his quarterback situation Monday actually came in response to a question about the defensive line rotation. The head coach spoke about the importance of having depth on your team, and used his quarterbacks as an example.

“I think in this league to be successful you better have depth,” said Kelly. “I think it showed at our quarterback spot. It was very evident. I know a lot of people when your number one quarterback goes down there is a big dropoff, and there wasn’t a dropoff at all.”


No dropoff at all since Nick Foles stepped in for Michael Vick midway through the Giants game last week. Not earth-shattering news, but a pretty nice tip-of-the-cap to his backup at the very least.

He danced with reporters again on the subject of QBs. Any questions about the position long-term were diffused by Kelly's decision to focus on the here and now. Everything was tied to the hamstring. Who sees first-team snaps at practice Tuesday depends on health, says Kelly, which suggests that Vick would be with the ones if he was full go.

Is Vick still the starting quarterback when he's 100 percent healthy?

"Until we know what the health is I'm not saying what anybody is," said Kelly.

"All of our decisions are based on what's going to give us the best opportunity to win. We have to put healthy guys on the field and make sure we can get a scheme together that's going to help us beat the Cowboys. That's all we're talking about. I don't see any divisions or one side going one way or one side going the other. Mike wasn't 100 percent on Sunday and Nick did an outstanding job."

Vick suggested to Comcast that "it’s going to be a long road” back from his hamstring injury. Kelly says he hasn't gotten that sense. Meanwhile, the clock ticks towards Dallas.

-- Patrick Chung  returned to action following a two-game absence, only to leave early against the Bucs after re-injuring his shoulder.

"We are concerned when anybody's hurt. He missed a game and didn't finish this last game so it's obviously a concern for us," said Kelly.

Kelly anticipates that Jason Peters (shoulder) will play Sunday but he doesn't think he will be a full participant Tuesday at practice. Chris Polk (shoulder) seems like more of a question mark for Dallas.

-- Kelly said he think Fletcher Cox probably played his best game of the season Sunday. The coaches credited him with five QB pressures. He lauded the defensive line for helping to hold Doug Martin to 67 yards.

  • Richard Colton

    More reasons to be happy with Chip Kelly. Irrespective of who was at QB, the offense hums. 2nd – remember how open he was about the criticism he took for not being able to slow down the offensive pace at the end of the game to milk a lead? Looked pretty good doing that this week, didn’t he? Andy spent 14 years taking the blame and never getting better. Chip took the blame and got better.

  • Joe from Easton

    My bet is that Foles starts again because Vick is “not 100%” (ala Kevin Kolb and Vick in 2010). If he tears it up (win or loss) then I think it’s his job. If he plays poorly then it’s back to clipboard duty barring more Vick injuries. I kind of hate that this almost seems like a one game extension “make or break” audition, but I think that’s what it is.

    • JofreyRice

      You could be right. I remember I was shocked when Andy named Vick the starter after Kolb’s concussion against the Packers.

      My thing would be, beyond just W-L’s for this season–which are important to Chip, obviously–he’s building his brand as an NFL coach. I’d say he’s going to be the head coach of the Eagles for no less than 3 years. If he benches a guy that the locker room loves, just because he got hurt, I think there could be some repercussions to his rep, and the way the players view him.

      • Richard Colton

        Kinda feel the same way as you and Joe. No matter why Foles starts this week, if he starts this week, Spadaro will announce a less than healthy hamstring.

        • OldDocRoss

          This might be a rare instance where I’d believe Spadaro! Hamstring injuries tend to linger and can be real easy to re-injure. I was a bit surprised he was active this week to be honest.

          It’s obviously not an ideal scenario, but I can see the logic to starting Foles and letting Vick get fully healed up. Whoever starts, I’m much more worried about how the D will look. They don’t seem able to generate a ton of pressure, and when you couple that with a dodgy secondary you get…..well…..what we have.

      • Joe from Easton

        I was quite shocked, but it was the right call. If Kelly does the same thing, I’ll be equally shocked, but I’ll also think it’s the right call. He can’t make decisions based on worrying what people (players included) will think. He’s the head honcho and needs to run the ship as such. The worst thing that can happen to Chip or anyone in his position is doing what you think other people prefer only to get sh** canned later and know that you didn’t go with your gut.

  • Scott J

    If a 33 year old injury prone vet, can’t outplay a young second year guy, then why play him?

    • Justin

      This is what I wanna know, too. But no Vick supporter will take the question. Why don’t we see just what we have in Foles?

      • cheapmeat

        As someone said earlier, ‘because we’re in contention.’

        Does anyone really believe that, regardless of how Foles does this season, we won’t draft another QB? Kelly wants a dual threat at QB.

        • Justin

          As I said in another thread, “If Kelly wanted “his own guy”, why would he go out of his way to win games, thus lowering his draft pick next year?”

          • cheapmeat

            Good point. But he still wants athletes that fit his system. The more players that play well this year (that aren’t ‘his’ guys), the greater their trade value.

          • cliff henny

            there’s enough qbs, one will drop to eagles. plus, have to assume kelly can continue to make qbs, went 4-4 at oregon, not too shabby with vick and foles. i agree with him winning, winning breeds winning, want to establish new winning environment.

          • Justin

            Maybe, but you gotta think, if he wants a young dual threat QB, he may be looking at Mariota with a lot of interest.

          • cliff henny

            oh, 100% or hundley. i’m in camp that it’s not foles or vick. both with fustrate fanbase to an endless arguing 8-8. thing is, eagles will be looking for something different than every other team. so a guy rated 5th by most teams could be kelly’s guy.

          • cheapmeat

            agreed

          • Brandon Boykin, OLB

            Hundley looks good.

          • JofreyRice

            I think it’s pretty much been proven that trading the farm for a QB is really the only time it’s worth it. If you need a guy, and believe in one of the guys that’s available, you trade what you have to go get him.

          • Adam

            Look how well that worked for the Skins. They’re in prime position to have a great first round pick next year… oh wait..

          • JofreyRice

            Ok, Ok, should have added the caveat that it’s worth it, provided you don’t have your son script plays for the QB to run when he’s got a severely weakened ACL, further weakening it to the point where it shreds like nacho cheese. That really was just asinine. Total mismanagement by the Shanahans, and unnecessary. Bob Griffin can throw it.

          • Adam

            Yeah it’s terrible. I like RG3 as a football fan too. He could have made life hell for us for the next 11 years, now with the Shanahan’s controlling his fate he might not make 5.

          • JofreyRice

            I actually like him a little more than I should, considering the team he’s playing for.

          • Adam

            Did you hear what he said in the press conference yesterday post game? “I’m not going to allow anyone to tell how to play football anymore. ” Very interesting quote.

          • cliff henny

            shouldnt have to move as far up as ‘skins. plus, pretty sure they overpaid out of desperation. say eagles are in 13-15 range, only need to get to 5 and that’ll land marioti or hundley. maybe trade foles, use those picks.

          • Token

            I think theyd trade up for a QB if Kelly really loved a guy.

            I think if his season keeps on this same path, Mariota will win the Heisman and hes a guy that scouts will truly fall in love with when the shorts come on. Gotta wonder if Chip likes him as a pro prospect. Its looking to me right now like its Bridgewater then Mariota. But theres a bunch of season to go.

            Speaking of QBs. WTF is up with RG3? Hes gotta still be tentative on that leg. This is a guy I thought would have no problem being a pocket QB in the league. Very accurate passer. He had a real bad night last night. I dont think the little son Shanny is helping matters.

          • JofreyRice

            Actually haven’t seen much of him this year. Is he still falling off throws the way he was? He was literally trying to play QB on one leg earlier in the year–can’t play from the pocket, or on the move like that.

            McNabb had a really shaky year in 2007 coming back from the ACL. I think AP skewed everyone’s expectations. I still worry about RG3 in that offense with the Shannarats, but I guess I should be rooting they stick around for awhile?

          • Token

            They are dead and buried for this year. Gotta wonder how much leeway Shanny has since he traded a bunch for RG3. That team has some players. Dont think they should be awful, but they are right now thats for sure.

            He didnt look last night like he did against us I dont think. He was just way off the mark on passes. You could tell he was getting pretty frustrated.

          • anon

            perhaps b/c he’s a college coach who likes winning and needs credibility with players, mgmt and fans.

        • HowboutdemIggles

          Which is why he drafted Matt Barkley right?

    • Adam

      Because Vick won a competition in August and the door is shut now and locked. Stop bringing up these points.

      • Joe from Easton

        Kelly said, in August, that the door is always open in his locker room. He said Mike was the starter for the season as of that moment, not for eternity. If any NFL head coach were against change to the point of “shutting and locking the door” then he’d be out of a job quickly.

        • Justin

          I’m fairly certain Adam was being sarcastic.

          • Adam

            He must be new here.

          • Joe from Easton

            I am, sorry about that one. haha

          • Scott J

            It’s hard to tell the difference between sarcasm and Vick Fanboys being serious. LOL.

      • Scott J

        They don’t play preseason games in college, so now Kelly is seeing how each QB plays during REAL games. He might want to change his mind and consider the QB competition back on.

  • aub32

    Ware is likely out for the game. Vick against a Cowboys team with no Spencer or Ware should dominate, if healthy.

    • Richard Colton

      I like how our O-line matches up against their patchwork front AUB, even with Peters at less than 100%. The problem for me is our D-line. Couldn’t get pressure vs. the Bucs without blitzing, which left the CBs in man coverage. You like Romo to Dez with one-on-one coverage? Could be a 200 yd day for Bryant.

      • aub32

        That’s kind of why I like Vick in this game. I think it’s going to be one massive shootout. Foles can score, but it’s more methodical and I don’t know if he can keep up with Romo if he decides to play like he did against Denver. I like our offense vs. their defnse, especially if they stick with cover 2. Though they may just put carr on DJax all day like they did Garcon last night. I’m also worried about Witten and Williams. I’d have Fletcher follow Dez with help, but I don’t know who could try to stop Williams or Witten.

        • Richard Colton

          Don’t forget Miles Austin or Gavin Escobar. This team is deep and can score.
          Anyway, you know how I feel about it. I think Vick gives them the better chance to win games this year, and as long as A) he’s healthy and B) the Eagles are in the hunt, he should start. But man, games like yesterday are making that position harder and harder.

          • aub32

            I think Austin is done. He can’t stay healthy and Williams brings as much talent to the table. Escobar doesn’t seem to get much burn, and with no Murray you have to figure they will want to run more 11 personnel and focus on the passing game.
            ….
            I like Foles. He played well, but I think he would have lost yesterday if the Bucs had a QB. That’s not a knock on Foles. He put up 31 on a good defense. That may not be ebough against the Cowboys. I think both Foles and Vick can move the ball and score against the Cowboys. However, Vick has the potential to make this offense special. He can do things Foles can’t if we get behind early. I just don’t know if Foles can go toe to toe against Romo. If we go down by 17, I don’t have much faith that Foles can bring us back.

          • cliff henny

            no murray?

          • aub32

            That’s the report from ESPN. Football on my phone

          • cliff henny

            awesome…forget about run, send 5 or 6 after romo, zone in secondary, make them earn every yard. still put up 35 against this garbage defense…but kelly has a stiffy for kiffen…i’m hoping for 50

          • aub32

            I wouldn’t trust us to go zone against Dez. I just remember how soft we played the Broncos. Romo is still pretty good and will eat us up. Kiffin has started playing more man. Let’s hope he goes back to the cover 2.

          • cliff henny

            well, cant play man! have 3rd option, lol? only defense is to pressure romo, just hoping without murray it’ll be easier. manning had all day against eagles…pretty uch everyone has outside 1st half against wash

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Let’s be real here. There’s a REAL chance this turns into a shootout. And Romo vs. Vick is a well matched shootout.

            While an unpopular opinion, I beleive we saw Foles ceiling. I don’t think he plays any better than he played Sunday. Vick has yet to have one of those games this year…Dallas would be a nice place to start (that’s me hoping).

            Dallas has a very good pass rush but with Ware out that line is ripe for abusing. Vick-Shady combo should do some serious destruction.

            Of course all of this is predicated on Vick being healthy. If he isn’t 100% and I mean 100% he should def sit this out.

        • Adam

          If Foles has scored as many TD’s in 1.5 games as Vick has in 4.5, why is everyone so sure he can’t keep up any better than Vick? Vick moves up the field, but he doesn’t finished. Yards are great but we need points.

          • aub32

            Because we all don’t see the game in a vacuum. I don’t blame Vick for not scoring TDs when passes are dropped or TDs are negated by penalties. Go back to the SD thread when we discussed all the points left on the field. None of them were blamed on Vick, if I recall correctly.

          • Joe from Easton

            Vick is 3 for 19 passing in the red zone this season. That means he would need to have completed 5 or 6 more passes to even be a respectable 50%. Besides Celek’s drop, which is all I hear about, can you name 4-5 more?

    • cliff henny

      healthy, well rested and probably a little desperate. that leash is getting shorter and shorter. heads will have to roll if eagles lose 9 straight at home. i’m patient, but this is horse-sh!t

      • aub32

        HAHAHA who are you telling. Vick performs well in division games and especially well against the Cowboys. It would be nice to end the home losing streak no matter who plays.

    • theycallmerob

      but in the same breath, even less of a reason to rush Vick back if he is not 100% recovered from injury. I’m not saying this as a reason to start Foles; I have enough of those. But if Kelly makes a bad decision to start Vick amidst all this pressure and he goes out and pulls a Miles Austin, the qb controversy will definitely be over. As will the likelihood of Vick playing again this year.

  • JofreyRice

    Agreed about Cox. He looked really good. I think Les Bowen wrote an article about how Cox was kind of a mediocre 3rd round type player, but I think Les is off the mark here. Cox was beating anyone he matched up against, pressuring the QB, forcing throws, and drawing penalties. He seems to have gotten his sea legs with the 3-4. I’d rather see him playing as a 3 tech, but I think the talent is shining through.

    Pretty nice that Thornton has become such a force against the run.

    I’m starting to think Mychal Kendricks is a kindred spirit to Nate Allen. I don’t think I’ve seen one game where the guy doesn’t miss a tackle. He’s always right there, dives and just kind of “slips” down the ballcarrier, holding nothing but O2.

    • Adam

      The Thornton new’s is awesome. I was a bit of a doubter about him coming into this season. We were putting a lot of faith in a guy who never really did anything up to this point. Everyone always talked about his potential and it’s now coming to fruition. Great news.

      An added benefit of Thornton playing well means it takes snaps from Soapoaga, and hopefully can give more to Curry.

      (does it bother anyone else that Thornton has 2 N’s in it? Like why is that first one there?)

      • Richard Colton

        More of a thorn, less of a thor; but he’s still getting bigger & stronger, so there’s hope.

    • cliff henny

      next ten drafts, i wont mind packing 1st and 2nd to move up…have to have worst track record in 2nd round. shot their wad after ’08 and ’09 on shady and d-jax..no pressure ertz

      • aub32

        Ertz is looking better each game. I think we may have ended our bad luck in the 2nd round.

      • JofreyRice

        I thought Ertz had a huge game (for him). 3 Catches brings him COMFORTABLY into double digit receptions for the year, and we’re only 6 games in! I mean, if you think about it, he only had about 100 less yards than that undrafted free agent TE from Rutgers that was playing for the Buccaneers, that’s pretty fantastic.

        • cliff henny

          so 3-13 isnt the deep seam zone buster he was billed as?

          • JofreyRice

            I’d like to see him make a catch with people hanging onto him. Have not seen that yet, and I think it’s critical for a TE that’s not really fast or athletic (like Ertz).

            On the same note, I’d like to see Foles make stick throws into tight coverage like that. Is he capable of it? I think when Vick is hot, he can do it, but Vick is really an inconsistent player, so it’s hard to know which Vick you’re getting week-to-week. Foles seems more consistent, so I’d like to see if he’s added that skill. I think it’s important for a playoff QB.

          • cliff henny

            yup, like all that…prefer next yr to see both qbs try on another team while marioti is in Philly.

          • Richard Colton

            I know it’s counterproductive, but everytime I see him drop a pass I see the ghost of Kiko Alonzo

          • cliff henny

            he stinks, only 22 tackles yesterday.

    • Token

      There was never a doubt to me that Cox is a beast. But this defense makes his job harder. I still hold reservations about him living up to his full potential in this D though. But he has the talent for sure.

      Kendricks, yea, Ive about given up hope. Dont think he will ever get it mentally. And the missed tackles. And the consistent beating TEs put on him when given the chance. Its harder to pick out the things he is excelling at.

      The Eagles will need to get some more big tough talented players, yea I get that everyone wants that. But they need to find some. Some ILB that will just ruin your day as a opposing player.

      • Richard Colton

        Kendricks has drawn some really tough assignments, with the TEs he has been asked to cover. Maybe it’s the scheme that makes him look bad. Pats had CB Talib on Graham last night and shut down the league’s best TE. Anyway – I hope you and JR are wrong about Kendricks.

        • Token

          Trust me I want him to perform. Thought it was a good pick.

          But he didnt look good last year. This year has continued on that path.

          The guy who was roasting him yesterday had like 45 yards before this game.

        • JofreyRice

          I’d love to be wrong about Kendricks. I really enjoyed watching him at Cal, and was yeasting him up before the draft.

          They allowed him to rush the passer a lot more there. Something he’s good at, even at his size. In the pro’s, he’s awful in coverage, and a very shaky tackler. With his athletic ability, and the toughness he showed at Cal, how bad he’s been has been an unpleasant surprise.

          • Richard Colton

            Our most athletic ILB covers TEs in the flat, while our most athletic corner blitzes from the linebacker position. Makes perfect sense.
            I’m just being a fan JR – I see the same things you & Token are seeing with Kendricks. I want something other than Cox to be excited about.

        • Dutch

          Let the Eagles tell it on signee day, Barwin was the optimal defender for Tight Ends coming from Houston, and that has not been a fact of reality because he’s being mushroomed in pass defense. And I’m yet to be wronged in Barwin’s talent as a pass rusher. However due to lack of talent at the linebacker position he can lay claim to being a effective linebacker on this roster.

    • Dutch

      There is no reason in the world to take Les Bowen’s articles for much more than entertainment. They are the least informative scribble in the Philly area news. Cox was drafted at 13 to play the 3 tech not a hit and delay 2 gap defensive end of a 3-4 defense. The Eagles is squandering this kid’s talent.

      I won’t even start in on Kendricks. I’ll let his play do the talking and so far in 2 seasons he’s not impressive.

      • JofreyRice

        I guess Bowen was expecting like 8-10 sacks out of a DT in his first season? Or expecting him to take over games, under his 3rd coordinator and line coach in 20 games, playing a 2 gap technique most of the downs?

  • Scott J

    I wish a reporter would ask Kelly if he put too much into the preseason when the QB’s were competing. He now knows there a big difference between preseason games and regular season games.

    • aub32

      Was he just supposed to assume the guy who was outplayed in preseason should be the starter. What would he have based his decision on? Was he supposed to rethink the decision after the QB he chose lead the league’s 2nd best offense? I get the argument for Foles now, but you make no sense.

      • Scott J

        They don’t play preseason games in college, so Kelly is not used to the difference between the preseason and regular season. A lot of players look great during preseason and then disappear during the season. Avant is a perfect example. My point is…now that he’s seen both QB’s play in regular season games, he might want to consider the competition still on.

        • aub32

          That’s fine. I have no problem with him still evaluating, but your question was “ask Kelly if he put too much into the preseason when the QB’s were competing”. What else was he supposed to put stock in? Was he supposed to let the competition carry on into the regular season? He chose a starter based on the only info he had available.

          • Scott J

            Of course he had to pick a QB, but now that he’s seen there’s a difference between the preseason and regular season games, he should still be evaluating the QB’s and open to making a change to better the team.

    • knighn

      Look – I thought they should have let Vick go. Vick is like a QB and RB all-in-one and has taken a beating more like a RB than a QB over the course of his career. There aren’t many 33-year old RBs running around the NFL.

      However, Foles hadn’t shown a whole ton last season, Chip Kelly wants to “win now” (as much as possible), and the QB market was pretty bare. Once they brought Vick back it made sense to start with Foles as #1 only if he was night and day better than Vick (through practice and pre-season). Vick is a legend in many of the player’s eyes and if Chip Kelly had started with Foles, Foles struggled, and then he had to switch back to Vick, then CK looks pretty silly going with Foles in the first place. A first-time NFL coach who is trying to extablish credibility with players couldn’t go that way, especially with a bunch of players who are also trying to “win now”.

      Fortunately for Chip Kelly, Vick clearly outplayed Foles in the pre-season (and in practice). Vick also brings a dynamic rushing ability (and a powerful arm) that Foles simply lacks.

      Now, is it possible, through all of the extra practice snaps, coaching and sideline observation that Foles has gone through since the start of the season, that Foles is better now than he was at the start of the season? Sure, that’s a possibility. Just like all of the extra punishment Vick has taken since the start of the season (including just the self-punishment of running around in pads) might have furthered his decline. I said, before the start of the season, that there might be a point where Foles is a better option than Vick. That might never happen, it might happen two years from now, or it might happen this season. Stay tuned.

      • Justin

        I’m sorry, but I couldn’t get past “However, Foles hadn’t shown a whole ton last season”. I don’t think anybody short of Peyton Manning could have done much with what Foles was given to work with last season.

        • Adam

          Foles completed 60% of his passes his rookie season. Luck, Stafford, PManning and Dalton didn’t.

          In the last 10 years, Cam Newton and Andrew Luck were the only 2 rookies to average more yards per start than Foles.

          There were only 2 rookie QB’s who had a better INT % than Foles last year. RG3 and Locker.

          We average 20 PPG with Foles last year and 15.5 with Vick.

          Foles showed a ton last season and there are plenty of teams that would be licking their chops to have a 24 year old guy like him.

          • nicksaenz1

            Fact.

          • Jason Hall

            Ok if you want facts how many games did Foles win and How many did Vick win last year? That’s what really counts.

          • nicksaenz1

            We were 4-12 last year. Two losing records doesn’t equal a winning record, which is why people look into more meaningful analysis than our abysmal record.

          • Jason Hall

            We lost our offensive line last year man

          • nicksaenz1

            You’re right we did, and there were more of them healthy for Vick than for Foles. What’s your point?

          • Adam

            Sorry, but it’s completely moronic to judge a rookie QB in his first 6 starts based solely on his win total.

            If you’re point for a 10 year vet over a 3rd round rookie is 2 extra wins, then that’s pretty sad.

          • knighn

            What, the Giants shoudn’t have kicked Eli Manning out of the NFL after his 1-6 rookie season?
            http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/gamelogs?season=2004

            Hell, the Giants had 5 wins without him as a starter and only 1 with him as a starter so clearly Eli Manning shouldn’t have had a future with the Giants.

          • Explorer51

            Peyton Manning rookie year: 3-13; Troy Aikman 0-11; Aaron Rodgers (fourth year, first time for won/loss record) 6-10; Steve Young first two years 3-16; Joe Montana first two years 2-6. Can keep listing All-timers who had less than great W/L in their early careers. Not everyone is Andrew Luck.

          • knighn

            I certainly think Foles has a possiblity to be “good” in this league. There are two big questions with Foles:
            1) Can he be special?
            2) Will he fit Chip Kelly’s NFL offense even if he becomes special?

          • Adam

            1) I have no idea. But I also have no idea if any of these draft prospects are going to be more less special. What I do know is that our team needs a lot of things, and that if we have a “good” QB then it would be a better use of resources to fill other needs.

            2) Yes. Chip Kelly’s offense will adapt to what Chip has to deal with. After watching games with Vick and Foles, I don’t think his offense is sub-optimal without a guy who can run the ball back there. He can adjust. Plus, I don’t think it’s lost on Chip the importance of having a QB that can stay healthy for a full season, so I could see him wanting to avoid designed QB runs.

          • knighn

            I’ve said it before and Foles fans don’t like it:
            It really becomes how Chip Kelly and the Eagles view Foles… and how Chip Kelly and the Eagles view the 2014 NFL Draft (and the QBs available there). If they think Foles is just a “nice QB” but they think they can get one that is truly “special” I think they are going to go after that special QB. There are a lot of good QBs in the history of the NFL. There are only a few that turn out to be “special”. You better be sure that you have an absolutely amazing QB before you pass on one that you think has a chance to be special.

          • Adam

            If that’s the case then great. This has nothing to do with me wanting Foles, I want the next franchise QB. It might be Foles it might be someone we pick up in the draft. If the Eagles and Chip think Foles is “good” they aren’t going to out of their to bring in a rookie QB just for the sake of doing it. A “good” QB is a luxury in this league. Ask Oakland, Arizona, Minnesota, Jacksonville, Cleveland, etc etc.. A “special” QB is obviously what you want but they don’t come along often.

            My question for you is how many of these special QB’s do you think are in this draft? I would say 1. Maybe 2. And how many are going to make it past all these QB needy teams that are going to finish at the bottom of the league? None of them. And no one in the basement is going to be trading back if there’s a special QB still on the board.

            Look at what this offense can do with 2 average QB’s. We’re breaking records. Now, if you can go out and find your difference maker on defense in the 1st round instead of QB… either in the secondary or a pass rusher, well, things would get real interesting in Philly then.

          • cliff henny

            it’s a valid arguement,but i’d be shocked if roseman and kelly hitched their wagons to foles. think good percentage of fanbase is giving kelly at least a semi-pass this yr. they want foles, that’s fine, but starting ’14 my good will yr is over.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Foles isn’t the future any more than Vick is. I just don’t know that they pull the trigger on Foles next year with needs for WR and defense on the table.

          • Adam

            Oh yeah, for sure. Unless Foles lights it up this year then I don’t think they’ll be hitching their wagon to him, but he could be another 1 year fix. If he can come out and play like say Matt Schaub (before this year obviously) and there’s a talented defender or WR on the board, then they can go that direction. Just don’t want them drafting just for the sake of drafting if Foles looks decent.

            A good Foles gives us flexibility next year, is basically what I’m saying. It doesn’t force us into a corner.

          • cliff henny

            i’m trading foles,keep show casing him and drive price up. plenty of teams with qb needs but fanbases that are rookie qb fatigued-people forget this. not every city is excited to draft a rookie qb after suffering thru 3 in last 7 yrs (oakland cleveland TB). just cant see how we dont have marioti or hundley playing qb next yr. why settle, those guys give you the best that vick and foles offer. simply dont want kelly to fail because he didnt get his qb. too many guys coming out next yr with raw tools he should love.

          • Adam

            True, but when was the last time a team traded a back up QB that went on to have success? I think after Flynn and Kolb, teams might get wise to this. Teams like to bring up their own guys through their own systems. You also have to take into account that we might be a mid round pick. Ton of QB needy teams ahead of us that might not be willing to move back. We’ll see how it plays out, but obviously a guy like Hundley or Mariota would be huge. I just don’t know if we’ll see them.

          • cliff henny

            i think it’s stupid. but not every fanbase is like philly. plenty of gm’s and coaches that need an 8-8 season to save their jobs. schaub is about only guy i can think of…heck, houston might be interested in foles. they may see 3rd yr guy as better option than starting over. someone will always trade, not worried there. one good thing is eagles dont have to get into top 2 or 3. i doubt draft will go1, bridgewater 2, clowney 3 marioti 4 hundley…so there will be trading partners at 5-7. also, do believe eagles will be seeking something different than other teams, so guy may drop they really value. plus eagles have chipper and his offense. also, this may, just might, change over the next 7 months…lol

          • knighn

            It would work out best if either Foles or Barkley could prove to be a potential franchise QB. We don’t know where the Eagles or going to draft next season. The bulk of the season has yet to be played.
            I am inclined to agree with you – one, maybe two potentially special QBs in next year’s draft. It’s all about what CK and Co think… and sometimes the rest of the NFL gets silly and let’s an Aaron Rodgers fall in the draft.
            So, bottom line: it’s all about what the Eagles think about the QB situation…

        • knighn

          No – there weren’t many QBs who could have won with that team last season, including Nick Foles and Mike Vick.

  • Justin

    Start Foles next week. Hell, start Foles the rest of the year. Why not? We aren’t winning the Super Bowl this year, Foles or Vick. So let’s find out what we have in Foles exactly. There’s not reason NOT to.

    • Richard Colton

      I understand the argument Justin, but it makes more sense when the team isn’t in first place. Right now, we are.

      • anon

        Yeah i think expectations were obviously low heading into the year. But we can make the playoffs — so win now.

      • Justin

        And Foles just made the #4 defense in the NFL look silly.

        • Richard Colton

          Yeah he did. He had two bad plays the whole game. Seriously, I’ve seen enough of Foles to want to see more. We might (trying to temper my expectations) have something here. Still, there’s a reason Vick won the QB contest in the first place. We slip to 2nd place in a terrible division, or if Foles puts together another performance like this, you won’t have to convince me. Foles should start.

          • Andy124

            Still, there’s a reason Vick won the QB contest in the first place.
            Yeah, the reason is that he played better over a about 15 preseason pass attempts. That got him the first 4.5 games of play time. He didn’t play poorly enough to lose the job, but his didn’t play well enough to make his job sacrosanct.

            Getting injured opened the competition back up. So now we have a regular season competition. More meaningful snaps and a larger sample size than the competition that decided the starter in the first place.

        • anon

          i thought it was schiano making the best man up cb play zone.

          • cliff henny

            same defense held very good qbs to bad days, playing same defense.

          • BlindChow

            They got to #4 by making the best man up cb play zone.

      • Adam

        They’ve both won the same amount of games this year. I don’t see the point as Vick putting us in a better spot to make a run as valid anymore. I think no matter what it’s the defense that’s going to hinder us.

        • aub32

          Our two greatest assets on offense are McCoy and DJax. They are good with Foles. They are great with Vick.

          • cliff henny

            explain cooper to me? guy looks like hot garbage for 5 weeks, then???? and it’s not zone defense, teams played zone some with vick, especially early on.

          • aub32

            Vick picked those zones apart. He had 428 passing yards against SD.
            ….
            Cooper had one good game. That’s all on Foles? Foles threw a 5 yard hitch that Cooper made a play on unlike anything I have ever seen from him. Cooper played with Foles last year and never did anything like that. Foles did a good job of getting Cooper the ball, who took advantage of his matchup against a rookie. I’m not disputing that. However, let’s not act like Foles is going to get that from Cooper every week. He is still Riley Cooper.

          • Justin

            That’s fair, but like I’ve been asking, why don’t we let Foles play next week and see if there’s a repeat performance?

          • aub32

            If Vick isn’t healthy I’m all for seeing what Foles can do. If Foles has another performance or better then I am all for making him the starter. However, this is a huge game and not the time to experiment. I think a healthy Vick can do more than a healthy Foles. Claibourne > Banks. Carr will likely follow DJax unlike Revis (which was so stupid of the Bucs). Dallas has some good LBs. Their safeties suck. Their D line is injured. Sounds to me like a better matchup for Vick-McCoy with Djax over the top.

          • Justin

            It might be a huge game, but the Cowboys are 31st in defense (30th in passing, 19th in rushing according to ESPN). The Cowboys will be without DeMarco Murray and probably without DeMarcus Ware. If Foles CAN’T beat them, then I’ll agree he shouldn’t be the starter.

          • Pennguino

            How many points do you think Foles’ offense needs to put up to keep up with our defense. I am thinking in the 40′s. That’s a tall order. If we can get 4 offensive TDs and a couple FG and maybe turn it over once will be a great game. It will be on the defense keeping them to less than 35.

          • cliff henny

            yup, i’m assuming cooper will revert back to hot garbage next week. was traveling, didnt watch game till 21-17…was seriously confused when saw cooper’s stat line..
            .
            but, then you have dutch’s arguement that foles needed to make others look better last yr. making cooper look servicable is a tremendous feat. vick never did.

          • nicksaenz1

            According to Dutch Foles shouldn’t have been able to do anything that he did yesterday because he’s garbage.

          • cliff henny

            sometimes i think dutch is mad foles is stealing his oxygen

          • JofreyRice

            Such elementary contempture is just Mere Chatter and Hogwash on blogs in Phila. It was proven over the course of his career in 2012 that Foles would Never Be Good, and so Kelly never wanted to play him to send him into the teeth of the defense. I kept expecting to see the much talked about Tampa Bay Steel Curtain, but saw that it was just an imaginary unicorn tied to a fence post outside. After each throw that Foles completed, it became clearer and clearer that they must be one of the league’s worst units. It was obvious to anyone watching that Foles was a babe in the headlights, alone and screaming, while Kelly and the Eagles left him to die.

          • nicksaenz1

            You’re ability to capture the essence of a Dutch post about Foles is uncanny, sir.

          • theycallmerob

            your to funny

          • aub32

            whoa whoa whoa. I never said Foles should have made Coope better. I said the fact that he didn’t shows there’s no special Foles Cooper connection that indicates we will see Riley produce every time Foles lines up behind center. Peyton Manning couldn’t get Cooper to produce like he did yesterday on a consistent basis. Everything I say is not a knock on Foles. Please read carefully. I was knocking the other guy. (Cooper)

          • cliff henny

            never said you did…i cant stand cooper, figure 4-130 was pretty much 1 time deal. but fact that foles did it once was amazing. cooper will get his 2-18 next week, all will be right in the world. thought you’d find the irony in dutch’s arguement.

          • cheapmeat

            Would love to see the stats on the amount of looks Cooper got from Vick vs Foles. Seems like Foles is more comfortable throwing in his direction…

            Regardless, you can’t underestimate the fact that he blocks well down-field. We lead the league in big plays (20+ yds) and down-field blocking is a big component of those plays.

          • cliff henny

            vick was 9 – 19 93 yards to cooper. foles just yesterdat was 4-6 130. my guess is game anomoly. blocking helps, but the 2 guys running it, vick and shady, are much bigger component.

          • anon

            rookie cb, w/ a staph infection who runs a 4.6 and plays zone.

          • nicksaenz1

            They were great yesterday. Both of them.

          • aub32

            McCoy was good. McCoy would get yards on any team behind any line. What we saw from the Vick-McCoy connection was special. Only those who choose to ignore what they see would dare dispute that.

          • nicksaenz1

            What are you talking about? He got 171 total yards. Does he need 200+ to be “great” or “special”? Completely subjective position your taking. You PREFER McCoy with Vick. Clearly, it didnt’ matter who was behind center.

          • aub32

            My mistake. Maybe I need to be more specific. I’m referring to the run game. Any QB can throw a screen pass, and Shady has the talent to make that work. However, with Vick Shady averaging 6 yards a carry. That’s sick. If I’m not mistaken the next guy was 1.3 yards less. That’s not even counting how Vicks average rush was even higher. That’s what I mean by good vs. great.

          • nicksaenz1

            Any QB can throw a screen but Vick doesn’t throw screens and even check down to Shady. If the YPC of Vick/Shady gets you going, obv Vick’s you’re guy. Offense ran just as well and put up more than our avg of points going into the game. That means more to me.

          • theycallmerob

            c’mon aub, McCoy also faced the best or 2nd best front 7 this past week. You’re right about McCoy and Djax being more important to this offense than the starting qb, but to say they’re simply better with Vick is false.

            It’s Kelly’s scheme, not the paralyzing threat of Vick running, that gets those guys their yards. Heck, Kelly even made a red-zone WR out of DJax. And even if you somehow stick by your “good/great” comment, the Eagles can still win as good well with Foles as Vick. Nothing more to see here. Play the kid

          • Adam

            Hahaha, no.

          • EaglePete

            Foles is doing well with Djax in the red zone and McCoy doesnt matter sooooo….theres that.

          • nicksaenz1

            McCoy doesn’t matter???

          • cliff henny

            bet he means shady is great regardless. you or i could qb, shady will get his

          • EaglePete

            yes, thats what I meant, thanks

          • HowboutdemIggles

            Well they’re good with Foles, then so is Riley Cooper.

        • Richard Colton

          agreed. its a flawed team, but making the playoffs in year one would be great for everyone.

          • cliff henny

            i’d be ok with missing by 1 game. 2 reasons, 1, draft position, probably be 6-8 spots difference and 2, if dallas wins division JJmight think he’s really close and mortgage an already shaky future with a team that really isnt close.

          • Richard Colton

            Tony Romo – the gift that keeps on giving. I’m as much as a draft nut as you are Cliff, but it’s October, and right now I want a playoff game.

          • cliff henny

            it’s the economist in me, micro vs macro…was always macro guy. best part of romo is, his albotross of a contract hasnt even kicked in.

          • knighn

            Speaking of Romo – I kind of think he’s been playing too well this year. It’s not that our defense is any good, but aren’t we due to watch Romo go into total, self-inflicted meltdown? Hope it’s in this game. Hope Foles and the Eagles can capitalize.

    • Scott J

      That’s kind of the bottom line, isn’t it? It just seems like a waste of time having Vick as our QB. Been there, done that, now let’s move on.

  • OldDocRoss

    I don’t really have a dog in the QB debate, but I *do* have an unhealthy obsession with stats so, some more facts and figures to have fun with:

    Vick has led 51 drives.
    39.2% ended in punts.
    25.5% ended in FGs.
    21.6% ended in TDs.
    11.8% ended in turnovers.
    2.0% ended on ‘turnover on downs’.

    Foles has led 20 drives.
    45.0% ended in punts.
    15.0% in FGs
    35% in TDs.
    5.0% in turnovers
    0% on turnovers on downs.

    Additionally, 4 of Foles’ 20 drives (20%) were 3 & outs.
    4 of Vick’s 51 (7.8%) were 3 & outs.

    Vick required an average of 74.6 yards at the start of his drives and gained an average of 37.2 yards (i.e. 49.9% of what was required for a TD).

    Foles required an average of 69.8 and achieved an average of 35.3 yards (50.6%).

    Disclaimer 1 – sample size is small, especially for Foles. Every one of his drives accounts for 5%, so use with caution.

    Disclaimer 2 – I didn’t include drives that simply led to the end of a half. In almost all cases these were just one play kneel downs, though there was a five play 27 yard drive at the end of the Giants game where Foles was QB.

    Disclaimer 3 – I’ve done my best to double check all of this, but I’m *really* hungry and need to go get some food.

    • Richard Colton

      Nice try with your so-called “stats” Doc. I’m not buying it.

      Here’s a stat. For the 6th consecutive game this season, Foles FAILED to break the 300 yard mark. Come back when your champion: Saint Checkdown, Nick “4 yard” Foles does that. Here’s some meaningful analysis. If you ignore 6 incompletions per game, Vick has a higher passer rating than Foles. If you simply replace 5 of those dropped passes with completions from 2010 (last time Vick had an O-line by the way) his total QBR is one standard deviation higher than Foles’.

      Fact.

      • Pennguino

        Here’s a Stat for ya. 3.05 That’s the points per drive Saint Checkdown’s is scoring. 2.37 That’s the points per drive Vick’s offense is scoring.

        Since it is a small sample size (6 quarters + 2 drives) I will spot you 2 full games. Take the WAS and the SD games (22 Drives). Vick’s best performances this year at 2.77 points per drive. He still cannot match Saint Checkdown’s offensive prowess.

        Take those two stats, choke on them and call me in the morning. Quit being such a Richard.

        Points win games. Yards don’t mean Richard!

        • Cyrus Robinson

          One thing to keep in mind for all the statisticians here is who did each guy play. Foles has two wins against teams that are currently winless in a cumulative 11+ tries. Vick had to play one of the best defenses in the league in KC, and a rough game against the Broncos, who have done well defensively accept for the Dallas game. Also, the Bucs defense was uncharacteristically bad yesterday since they are a team distracted with the MRSA outbreak and starting to quit on the coach.
          Stats can’t tell the whole story right now, unfortunately. I’m not sure if they can right now. We just have to believe in Chip.
          I will say one thing though: sometimes there is no good reason to choose one thing over the other. It’s like debating over wearing a red shirt or a blue shirt. Right now, Vick and Nick are at just about the same place. I don’t think starting one over the other would cause the team to win or lose more games than the other. Maybe Vick would destroy some teams that Foles would struggle with, and vice versa.
          There’s no drop-off = does it really matter?

          • Richard Colton

            Exactly – not enough is being made of the MRSA angle. The Tampa DBs didn’t want to hit anyone for fear of an NFL fine for aggressive MRSA colonization.

          • Pennguino

            hahahaha. That made me laugh

          • Pennguino

            Never spoke about records. It was only a points per drive discussion. Since you bring up the strength of the defense. The second stat is based upon WAS and SD. Two to the worse defenses in the league. Vick STILL couldn’t out score Foles.
            Tampa boasted the #2 Red Zone defense in the league and Foles was 100% scoring TD’s against them (2-2) The third time they were in the red zone Chip even stated they were playing the clock and settling for the FG.

            Foles dismantled the 8th ranked defense and beat 2 great QBs in the stats column that also played Tampa. But now you pooh pooh it away stating they had a bad day. Sorry that is just sour apples crying.

        • Richard Colton

          your so-called numbers just prove that Foles has been more effective scoring points. What does that have to do with anything?

          • Pennguino

            Wow really? The only way to win is to outscore the other team. If one QB is putting up over a TD more a game with the same offense then that QB should be playing.

            It’s not a matter of what each QB brings to the table. It is a matter of they actually do while at the table.

          • Richard Colton

            since when? they giving out victories for checkdowns now? what you Foles people don’t understand is the dynamism Vick brings to the game. Every completed pass is justification for what I’ve been saying. Every incompletion or Int is either a mistake by someone else or a vast single-wing conspiracy. This couldn’t be easier – what’s your REAL agenda here?

          • Andy124

            On. A. Roll.

          • Richard Colton

            i’m 90% sure he’s just playing along

          • Pennguino

            its all good on a slow day.

          • Andy124

            I think so too. I wasn’t sure if he wasn’t getting your joke or I wasn’t getting his. But your stuff was pure gold. He definitely gets the benefit of the doubt.

          • defroe81

            you shouldht have to explain it to dick what it means he is just being a richard what do points have anything to do with anything lol what a richard statement…

      • HowboutdemIggles

        I had to read that over, to actually get it. Nice.

    • Pennguino

      Good read. I did the same thing but focused on the points per drive.

      I had Vick at 54 total Drives with 49 net (Kelce, Avant Fumbles…not his fault and 3 End of Half/Game type kneel downs or run the clock type stuff)

      For Foles I had 22 with a net of 19 (McCoy Fumble, and the Half/End Game stuff)

      Foles’ stats are a small sample size. When looking at the PPD (Points Per Drive) it is supported by last year as Foles’ offense scored more points per game.

      • Richard Colton

        all kidding aside, the most telling stat here is YPA – and Foles has been consistantly improving there. Sheil broke it down on the latest ALL-22

        • cliff henny

          good one for sure. like 50% vs 47% in scores where figured vick would have advantage in that stat, more yards between 20′s-running capabilities would get offense down more often with foles needing better td ratio to make up difference, but not the case. certainly be something to see when foles gets more playing time this yr. like that foles is scoring tds, not fgs.

      • OldDocRoss

        Yeah, there’s a reasonable case for not including drives ending in fumbles that weren’t by the QB. I left them in there because in my head I filed them under “bad stuff that happens that isn’t the QB’s fault but should even itself out over time” along with things like drops, but it’s not a hill I’d wish to fight or die on. And I meant to include PPD but forgot – so kudos for doing that.

        At some point when I’m feeling super energetic I’d be curious to run similar numbers for other QBs in the league. I take Cyrus Robinson’s point that stats only tell you so much, but given that pretty much all standard quarterback metrics (QBR etc) have flaws it can be fun* to look at less quoted figures to see how they stack up.

        *your definition of fun may involve less statistical geekery.

        • Pennguino

          Stats can help but should not be the only driving force. It just helps cut down on perception and where human emotion adds more weight on an event. Plus it brings legitimacy to a discussion and it pisses off those that say “I know what I saw”

  • EaglePete

    so if you take your stats out of the equation and simply go with your gut, who do you want to start against Dallas?

    Couple things here can lead to problems down the line. Start Vick the next few games and he falters and CK goes back to Foles. Then Foles plays great for most of the rest of the season. DId the team drop the ball on pulling Vick and miss out on playoffs potentially because of it or the reverse happens. They go back to Vick who plays well and they should have never pulled him. Fun times. I say start Foles because the season is potentially on the line, marginal reach for the playoffs, and it would be far worse to lose out on a younger Foles short term future. Also, is it possible Foles just plays better when its game time hence his poor play in the preseason. You cant discount that, it happens all the time. Last season being bad for any QB with that sinking ship. This may just all be moot and they are both average. Id still rather roll the dice with Foles.

  • jon h

    Lots of debate, but what makes Vick solid is his running abiliity. Can’t do that with a pulled hamstring. So if he’s not mobile, his game is very similar to Foles except Foles has quicker reads (and I think he understands the system better). So let Vick rest and get healthy. When he can run again, put him back in. That’s probably not this week, or next or even until after the Giants game. Of course, if we want to make a run at the post season, we need to beat Dallas and the Giants (again). But see what Foles can do. If Vick reaggrevates his hammy or is sub 50% against Dallas, we’re not going to win anyway. Rest Vick for the next 2-3 weeks and then have him come back when the hammy is healed. Stop all of this crazy debate each week.

  • Andy124

    Can you imagine if Vick had played and put up just 24, throwing for 2, running for 1, on the Bucs team that had held Brady and Brees to 23 an 18 respectively… Then Token comes in and says, “Yeah, the Bucs really weren’t that good, in fact, they’re pretty crappy, and Vick only did well because they played zone instead of man. They practically gave it to him. Oh yeah, and MRSA.”

    My god, heads would explode. What would your reaction be to a post like that?

  • KimbaFuzz

    You know, I wish Kelly would just go to Foles, cut Vick and then the QB controversy would DIE DIE DIE DIE. Cause I’m so sick of what it does to this fanbase, and apparently as long as Vick is on this team, there’s always gonna be a vocal group that will want him replaced (even when barring the KC game, he’s played pretty damn well and lead this team to the #2 offense). Fine. Whatever. If Foles is the new Kevin Kolb-AJ Feeley-Jeff Garcia then let’s just get to it and be done with it. If he wins 2 more games the entire season, fine. If he wins 8 more games the entire season. Fine. I’m just so over this bs QB argument.

    I just wanna move the f’k on and focus on the disaster that is the defense still. Or do we know no longer care about that side of the ball?

  • Greg in LA

    There’s a much simpler way to compare a traditional pocket passer with a hybrid mobile QB. The current QB rating is actually a Passer Rating since it doesn’t include the rushing yardage (and increased possibility of fumbles) that the ‘new’ QBs bring to the game.
    I ran the QB ratings for top players so far this year but included their # of runs in the Attempts and Completed numbers (in effect, they completed a pass to themselves) and added the rushing yardage. Also, included fumbles lost and interceptions as total turnovers. This is a more complete picture of what the individual player contributes to the total game, not just their effectiveness as a passer.
    Here’s what happens:

    Complete B Rating (not Passer Rating)
    1. Foles 129.3
    2. Manning, P 119.1
    3. Rivers 110.7
    4. Romo 104.7
    5. Brees 102.1
    6. Rogers 98.9
    7. Ryan 98.9
    8. Vick 96.3
    9. Luck 95.8
    Recent SB QBs so far this year
    Brady 78.5
    Flacco 75.2
    Kaepernick 74.0
    Manning, E 61.5
    This rating is more inclusive since it includes rushing attempts, yardage and fumbles lost. Attempting to compare QB ratings as currently calculated does allow for complete comparisons of actual players.
    Point is that we have two of the top 10 QBs in the league thru 6 games–AND they are completely different type of players. BOTH are very good right now.

  • Greg in LA

    There’s a much simpler way to compare a traditional pocket passer with a hybrid mobile QB. The current QB rating is actually a Passer Rating since it doesn’t include the rushing yardage (and increased possibility of fumbles) that the ‘new’ QBs bring to the game.
    I ran the QB ratings for top players so far this year but included their # of runs in the Attempts and Completed numbers (in effect, they completed a pass to themselves) and added the rushing yardage. Also, included fumbles lost and interceptions as total turnovers. This is a more complete picture of what the individual player contributes to the total game, not just their effectiveness as a passer.
    Here’s what happens:

    Complete B Rating (not Passer Rating)
    1. Foles 129.3
    2. Manning, P 119.1
    3. Rivers 110.7
    4. Romo 104.7
    5. Brees 102.1
    6. Rogers 98.9
    7. Ryan 98.9
    8. Vick 96.3
    9. Luck 95.8
    Recent SB QBs so far this year
    Brady 78.5
    Flacco 75.2
    Kaepernick 74.0
    Manning, E 61.5
    This rating is more inclusive since it includes rushing attempts, yardage and fumbles lost. Attempting to compare QB ratings as currently calculated does allow for complete comparisons of actual players.
    Point is that we have two of the top 10 QBs in the league thru 6 games–AND they are completely different type of players. BOTH are very good right now.

  • Shark

    I honestly see zero reason so go back to Vick. I like him, but it’s over, his experiment is over. This isn’t a playoff team, and Vick won’t change that. He’ll be gone once the season is over, so let Foles play and see how it works out. Solid chance he isn’t the future either, but his future in Philly is sure as hell a lot brighter in Philly than a 30+ mistake prone QB who is always hurt.

    • HowboutdemIggles

      Exactly my point, it’s ok to have Vick play well, but he’s not any better than he will be now.