Running Diary: Eagles Practice Observations

Here’s what we saw today at the Linc:

12:25 – Today was Military Day at the Linc, and that’s important to Chip Kelly. The Eagles’ head coach has traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan to visit with troops, and he dedicated Oregon’s spring game to the military. Here’s a YouTube video of Kelly addressing the troops while in the locker room while with the Ducks:

Today, military personnel lined the end zone and the sideline before practice. Eagles players shook their hands before they got started. But Kelly took the time to talk and take photos with pretty much all of them. By my guess, he spent a good 25 minutes making the rounds.

On a football note, the Eagles are not in pads, so expect even less hitting than usual.

1:18 – A couple injury notes. Jason Kelce is out with an ankle injury, and LeSean McCoy is dealing with a knee issue. Neither injury is considered serious, the team said.

1:20 – During 3-on-2s, Jamar Chaney bats down a Matt Barkley pass. I wonder if Barkley is getting a bit frustrated. He told Sam Farmer of the Los Angeles Times that it’s “kind of rough” battling the unwritten depth chart. Something worth keeping an eye on at least.

Meanwhile, Michael Vick hits DeSean Jackson deep. This has become a daily occurrence. Jackson beat Brandon Hughes.

Good question by McManus as he takes a look at two Eagles near the training table chatting it up: “I wonder what Shady and Ed Wang are talking about.”

Me too.

Mychal Kendricks breaks up a Dennis Dixon pass intended for Nick Miller. Also, Felix Jones has not shown good hands so far in camp.

1:36 – During 7-on-7 drills, Vick is up first with the ones. Brandon Boykin breaks up a pass over the middle intended for Jason Avant. But later in the drive, Vick finds Avant for a touchdown.

Nick Foles, meanwhile, looks for Ifeanyi Momah on an out pattern to the right side, but Hughes breaks it up. Zach Ertz runs the same route to the left side on the next play, and Foles connects with him. Brandon Graham actually had decent coverage on the play.

Foles looks for Momah on the fade in the right corner of the end zone, but he can’t hang on. Momah’s flashed inconsistent hands during camp. Ertz then drops a slant. Foles not getting a lot of help here.

Barkley makes a nice throw to Damaris Johnson in a tight window over the middle. He then looks for Johnson on a corner route, but Jordan Poyer and Nate Allen have good coverage and force an incompletion.

1:45 -I have never seen this before. A “defend the fake punt” drill. Two assistants stand at the line of scrimmage with blocking pads. Two defenders attack the line of scrimmage, before turning to chase the punter.

Serious question: Why practice defending the fake punt when you know it’s coming?

Meanwhile, in one corner of the end zone, four quarterbacks practice throwing off their back foot. But not G.J. Kinne. He’s on the other side of the field holding a blocking pad and helping with special teams.

“Kinne’s gotta be thinking, ‘This isn’t a good sign,’” says McManus.

By the way, if I hear one more person cal him E.J. Kinne…

1:59 – 11-on-11s. Foles is up first. He launches one to an open space in the end zone. It almost looks like he’s throwing it away, but Jackson speeds to the ball and makes the grab for a 20-yard touchdown. Had to be a defensive miscommunication there.

Vick runs the read option, keeps the ball, runs to his right and then swings it to Jones near the sideline before crossing the line of scrimmage.

Again, no pads. But Chris Polk with another nice run. He’s definitely outplayed Jones up to this point.

Vick rolls to his left, can’t find a receiver and takes off for the end zone. Kelly said yesterday he wants Vick to run if he has nowhere to go with the ball.

“Part of being a good decision-maker is if everybody’s covered, don’t force it,” he said. “If, obviously, people are going to play man coverage and turn their back on you, you looked at the one where [he] probably had a 25‑, 30‑yard gain.”

Barkley is directing traffic, but Dallas Reynolds snaps the ball when he’s not looking. It must be mentioned when evaluating Barkley that he’s playing with a lot of confused players out there.

A new-look starting offensive line, from right tackle to left tackle: Lane Johnson-Todd Herremans-Julian Vandervelde-Evan Mathis-Allen Barbre.

Vandervelde is in for Kelce. Clearly, there’s competition for the backup center job. Barbre, meanwhile, had been practicing exclusively at guard, but is now getting a look at tackle for the first time.

2:09 – One final 11-on-11 team period. Vick fires to Jackson near the sideline, but Eddie Whitley breaks it up. Vick and Jackson connect on the next play though. Beautiful throw down the sideline for a 35-yard gain.

Foles hits Johnson on the slant, and he stops on a dime, getting away from Kurt Coleman and making his way towards the sideline.

On my to-do list for tomorrow: Ask Patrick Chung about the Eagles’ three-safety look. This is the second time I’ve seen them show it with Chung up covering the slot receiver.

Foles looks for Momah on the go-route. He sees the ball in the air, but just can’t separate from Hughes. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but his workout speed has not shown up on the field yet.

Polk shows good burst and gets free for a 20-yard score. Really looking forward to seeing him in the preseason.

Barkley’s pass is tipped by a linebacker, pops up in the air, and Cary Williams picks it off.

Interesting nickel look. Fletcher Cox, Cedric Thornton and Trent Cole are your defensive linemen. Connor Barwin is playing a “joker” role, lining up in a variety of places. And on one play, Cox actually drops back into coverage. If that happens more than once a game, Billy Davis may need to turn in his resignation.

That’s it for today. Tomorrow, we get to mix in Bill Belichick jokes. Who’s excited?

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  • #7

    QBs sound like they’re looking good sans Barkley

  • Cranky Caucasian

    Sheil, gonna be nit picky here. Can you list the o-line from left to right? The way you do it breaks my brain every time.

    • ohitsdom

      Glad I’m not the only one, drives me nuts.

      • djack10

        that’s crazy…i’ve always thought the same thing!!! it’s probably because that how it shows on TV…

    • sdk152

      I have no idea why I do it like that. Yes, of course, I can do left to right going forward. -SK

  • Jared

    I was at the practice today and maybe I’m wrong, but I thought it was Foles that threw the pick to Williams…

  • #7

    Even the hack Mosher says Vick is starting to separate himself from the pack

  • Kevin

    Sheil – Because if you can’t defend the fake punt if you are expecting it, how are you going to defend it when you don’t expect it (unless you have Henry throwing the ball 10 yards short of a receiver).

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    ” Kelly said yesterday he wants Vick to run if he has nowhere to go with the ball.”

    And that’s why I like Kelly. He likes his pegs and holes to match up.

    • #7

      Yeah man I love it. No hesitation. If no one is open, GO.

      • djack10

        If the dude can somehow work his magic and take it down one notch to not put himself in harm’s way, watch out. Unfortunately, he seems to only have one gear when it’s gametime. ALL OUT.

        • defroe81


    • Run Eagles Run

      yeah, it will be interesting to see what vick 2.0 can do when he isnt forced into a west coat system not styled to his strengths.

  • James

    Vick has been better and is now putting some distance between himself and Foles despite what all the Foles fan boys on this site continue to say.

    • Gary

      You realize that article is based on someone’s interpretation of reports… you know… like the one Mr. Kapadia wrote in this very page? Not saying Vick hasn’t been better the last few days, but that story is pretty useless.

  • nicksaenz1

    No pads today, and as Lawlor pointed out, the defense couldn’t have stopped a leaky faucet, so not that much to take from a practice where Celek’s pass from Vick (that he miraculously didn’t drop) came when he didn’t have a guy w/in 10 yards, same for Avant’s TD. If those in support of Vick can use can use the no pads/hitting argument, it goes both ways.
    What’s starting to worry me is the lack of hitting. I know we have to keep guys healthy, but, for a sorry-tackling team like we had last year, we should be doing at least a little tackling to the ground.

  • All In Eagles

    Is anyone a tad worried about Vick running? Don’t get me wrong I’d love to see him light it up 2010 style but last year he looked slow. He was caught numerous times from behind by DE’s.

    • #7

      Not worried at all. Just because you don’t run a 4.2 anymore doesn’t mean you’re slow

      • All In Eagles

        I never said that not running a 4.2 makes you slow but in comparison to guys weighing 260 he looked less fast and was caught from behind. I’m hoping for the best of course.

        • #7

          New season = New results

        • A Big Butt and a Smile

          Kevlar vest people. Kevlar vest.

    • Token

      Im excited about it. It means a quick injury and the faster we can get past this terrible era.

  • ohitsdom

    4th round. Doesn’t sound to me like he’s complaining. He mentioned he hasn’t even got a shot with the 1′s, not exactly a complaint. He’s hungry, that’s a good thing.

    From Sam Farmer’s article:

    “With Pete [Carroll, then USC's coach], it wasn’t like it was given to me,” he said. “He throws you in with the 1s. ‘Let’s see what you can do.’ So I was kind of thinking that would be the same here, at least to get a shot just to see what you could do. But that hasn’t been the case yet, so hopefully that will come soon. It’s just different.”

    Impatient as he is, Barkley is also realistic about the plight of a rookie and said he doesn’t want to be “that kid whining about reps, ‘Where are you going to put me?’ and whatnot.”

  • Adam

    Just curious as to what you’re basing this off.

  • JofreyRice

    It does seem like he’s putting on better performances these last few days, and that some daylight is appearing between the two. It would be great if the competition actually has brought out the best in Vick. I want to see him play within the system–he’s got to cut the freelancing out.

  • JofreyRice

    Rotoworld had some blurb out that Shephard was the favorite to be the #2 receiver, I have no idea where they go that info.

  • JofreyRice

    yeah, seems like Wolff has been a real POS so far.

  • Token

    Practice Vick and game Vick are two different things. Lets see how he does with teams game planning and rushing him up the middle. Lets see if he improved his blitz pickup. Id assume that Chip will ask Bill to throw stuff at both QBs in practice to see how they respond throughout the week.

  • cliff henny

    guy’s stock has shot up, hasnt it? les miles never used him, reports were litlle fuzzy, either shepherd had some diva in him, or miles screwed him over. but every game i saw shep get a series or 2, make couple plays then never be heard from again.

  • Brent E. Sulecki

    no freekin way just showed the depth chart and seems Riley is #2 now. how bad is that

  • Brent E. Sulecki

    I haven’t been impressed by him. but they say his camp has been good

  • cliff henny

    not sure which point you are questioning. kruger, coach begged him to stay another yr, reported he could have worked to much higer pick next yr. wollff being ps guy(certainly opinion/guess), because he’s behind coleman(not good) and 5th rd pick, probably get little more time. poyer, read over at bleedinggreen he was really struggling a couple times. 7th rnders…pretty much common knowledge isnt it? was hoping 1 out of the 3 would give us something this yr. heck, odds are one of johnson, ertz or logan will not be a productive eagle.

  • Dutch

    That is only because both are playing with players who are expected to be contenders and contributors to the actual team, whereas Barkley is playing with socks salesmen right now. I think when cut down time comes, Barkley will be playing with more advanced players and it’s then he will be able to make a move up the ladder.

  • devCal

    hey mark eckel, chill out bro.

  • Maggie

    Surely YOUR opinion of the O-line somehow will alter the course of history!?!

  • devCal

    turn your phone off. problem solved.

  • JofreyRice

    I don’t think Vick can get away with it anymore. If the play is designed so that Vick takes off when the receiver is covered, or the pitchman is covered, that’s one thing. If Vick sees those two things, and thinks he should dance around in the pocket for 5-8 seconds, trying to make a play rather than just throwing it away and living for another down, then I think it’s a problem.

    Part of being “the guy” is protecting yourself, so you can be “the guy” the following week. Last year, in the Steelers game, Pittsburgh jumped offsides on one play, so it was essentially a free play for the Eagles. Instead of taking a shot on throwing the ball, Vick took off for a little 3 yard gain, and ended up getting pancaked into the turf by 330 pound Casey Hampton. To absorb that kind of punishment on a free play is just not savvy, and that’s the kind of stuff that I criticize Vick for every time. It’s irresponsible for a franchise QB to be that unaware of the situation and risk/reward.

    I absolutely think that Vick’s physical talent has handicapped his development as a player. When you can do things no one else can do (early Vick), you don’t have to follow rules. Now that some of those gifts have faded, he’s got to try and develop some of the skills he didn’t need early on. It’s going to be a hell of a job, but I’m glad someone has started to distinguish themself as the starter this year.

  • Token

    Well if Rambo ends up being a good player then the Skins last two 6th and 7th round picks have been Morris and Rambo. While the Eagles have been Brandon Washington and Jordon Poyer. Howie really has to stop drafting based on Mike Mayocks big board.

    Looking at this draft early on you have 4 picks that may not make this team that lacks talent. Barkley will make it just because he has too. But all in all thats probably a wasted 4th rounder.

    You gotta hope Lane, Ertz and Logan become good players. The other picks already dont look very promising. Granted its super early to even discuss this stuff. But when a 5th round safety can barely crack the depth chart its not very good.

    Last years draft hinges on how this season goes. Cox looks like a stud. Kendricks could be very good. Brown. Can Boykin play well in games like he has in camp. But Curry looks like a wasted 2nd rounder and if Foles cant beat out lowly Vick then thats a wasted 3rd rounder. You would have then blown 3rd and 4th round picks on worthless QBs in consecutive years.

  • Adam

    You’re putting far too much weight into these depth charts.

    John Fox on the importance of pre-season depth charts: “We released a depth chart only because the league makes us.”

  • JofreyRice

    I disliked the Eagles draft this year, so I’m curious to see how it plays out. I think Johnson has an insane amount of athletic talent, but I can’t see drafting a guy like that at #4. I think you need someone fairly readymade to step in and play at a solid level, and then turn into one of the top 10 tackles in the game during his rookie contract if you’re using a pick that high. The ZBS is a very good fit for Johnson’s strengths, so maybe it could happen, but I just didn’t think it was the best use of a #1 pick.

    Ertz is a very polished route-runner that was heavily featured by Stanford–essentially creating the best NFL audition tape possible. He’s solid, but unspectacular, IMO, and I don’t think he’s going to get much better than he is right now. Nothing like Eifert, in terms of ability. I think Travis Kelce can be special, too.

    Logan is just a guy. They took him off the field on passing downs when they played Johnny Manziel and TAMU (He actually did have a sack on Manziel, but it’s kind of unimpressive, JM just sort of runs into him). It’s OK if they wanted to try and nab a young Nose Tackle, but there were much younger guys available in free agency, and they chose to sign old & bad Sopoaga, filling a need in a half-assed way, necessitating another move during the draft.

  • Token

    yea, I keep forgetting about the Eagles history of stellar drafts.

    The simple fact is that a bunch of these drafts picks dont look like they even belong on a NFL practice field. Typically not a good sign. Especially with the lack of talent ahead of them.

  • Eagles4Life

    Jesus. Yeah, that one takes the cake.

  • Eagles4Life

    According to “Football Outsiders Almanac 2013,” only six rookie quarterbacks since the 1970 merger had a lower touchdown rate than Foles produced in 265 pass attempts last season. He completed just 13-of-31 red-zone passes, gaining a total of 54 net yards.

  • #7


  • Token

    But, the line…the WRs….The defense. TEAM SPORT! right guys? Aint that what you are always saying?

  • Adam

    Fletcher Cox was one of the best rookie defensive lineman last year. He was near the top of the league for QB sacks at his postion as a rookie. Kendricks finished top 10 in rookie tackles, he had his ups and downs but is now playing in a scheme that more suits his skill set and all reports out of camp are that he’s covering and blitzing well. You can write off Wolff and Poyer because of camp reports but when it comes to Boykin you discount camp reports? How is that fair? Not to mention the fact that he had an excellent rookie season and got better as the year went on. Dennis Kelly is going to be a good backup RT which is what you want out of a 5th round pick. Bryce Brown had BACK TO BACK 150+ yard games as a 7th rounder. Nick Foles put up good numbers, while he didn’t have a good win loss record how could be? QB rating of his opponents was over 136.

    How can you win with that kind of defense? With that makeshift line? Are you really able to sit there and say you can truly grade anyones performance last year?

    Any NFL personnel guy will tell you it takes 3 seasons to fully grade a draft class, because after 3 years you basically see what you’ve got. But we’re writing off both draft classes already. This is great. I love Philly fans.

  • Adam

    It’s absolutely irrelevant where they are on the depth chart pre-week1 preseason. All of these guys will split reps in the preseason games THEN we can make an accurate assessment of where they stand on the team. That’s all I’m asking.

    How can you take a depth chart seriously that has TWO STARTING QB’s ON IT. My god people. Did you listen to anything Chip has been saying since he got here?! These depth charts are written in sand, and are a seating chart essentially. How can a corner or a safety make a name for himself in a camp where they aren’t allowed to hit??

  • Token

    Maybe it took 3 years in the 90s when rookies didnt always play right away. But now if they are talented they generally play fairly quickly. A season or two is all it takes.

    Im a Kendricks fan. But I dont buy that this scheme fits him better. I think it hurts both him and Ryans IMO.

    I want Boykin to be good. That would be great. But lets see him against some real WRs first. He wasnt great last season. If he really is shining he should be able to start over the likes of Williams or Fletcher.

    Im one of the few who thought Foles showed promise last year. However, in the real world, if he cant beat out a 33 year old crumbling Michael Vick than it was a wasted high draft pick. Now other way to look at that. A 3rd rounder should be a contributor.

    Brown had a nice 2 games. But then you look at the next 4. And he cant protect the football. Hopefully that has been remedied.

    I dont think you can say what Dennis Kelly is. Am I wrong or hasnt he even taken backup tackle reps this camp?

    I just dont get the need to try and make these drafts better than they were. Look at them objectively and take the fan hat off. From the looks of it so far its just not very promising. I dont know how Howie has given you any sense of confidence in his ability.

  • Eagles4Life

    LOL I was just trolling, but defense has nothing to do with piss poor red zone performance. One could argue if you get to the red zone, you should be able to get TDs more. At any rate, just a fun fact lol

  • Richard Colton

    the short answer is: Howie hasn’t. But I’m willing to take JL at his word and credit him with two drafts. I prefer the wait and see approach with these guys.

    I don’t think Kendricks had the size or experience to play in last years scheme. I need to see big things from him this year. Boykin has ideal size for the slot, the fact that we’re talking about him moving to the outside says a lot about him. Getting an excellent nickle corner in the mid rounds? I’ll take it. Dennis Kelly is the #1 backup tackle, not counting a Herremans lateral move. He looks like he can play.

  • Token

    Yea im just spouting off the Vick excuses. Figure they should work for Foles too.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    Long sigh.

    The dude is a MUCH better Qb than he was with the Falcons. He’s improved (blitz pickup, throwing lanes) every year he’s been here. Vick is no longer Speedy Gonzalez fast BUT he’s still in the top 5 of fastest QBs in the league.

    He’s also been running in a kevlar vest in a system that made him REAL indecisive about running. And any conversation about Vick protecting himself last year is silly unless you talk about the line that was doing NO protecting at all. He’s was getting killed IN the pocket – not outside of it.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    Well the line and WR core were a problem for Foles as well. No one has ever suggested otherwise. The difference between you and a good many of the other posters here is we recognize that football is a team sport.

    And the Eagles have been bad in the red zone for YEARS – even when McNabb was lighting it up – so that (IMO) is directly related to the not so great receiving core the Eagles have had for years.

  • nicksaenz1

    Play-calling too. 3rd and 2 from the 2 should not be a pass play every time.

  • #7

    No matter how much we say it, they will never agree smh. If they see Vick get caught by behind BY ANYONE, they get to screaming that he’s in decline. I think it’s laughable myself. Just because he doesn’t run a 4.3 (that we know of), a 4.4..4.5 means he’s in decline?

    One thing I DO know that isn’t in decline is that left arm. All this talk about Foles having a quicker release. WRONG. Getting the ball out quicker. Wrong AGAIN (according to Kempski from site that is Pro-Foles..and Roob from CSN Philly, another pro-Foles site) say otherwise.

    We still have preseason to go, but Foles can’t hold a candle to Vick and like I’ve been saying this whole time, Vick would separate and he has done that.

  • JofreyRice


    So how did he become a much better QB than he was with the Falcons? By being a square peg that Reid was trying to shove into a round hole? Did he learn those skills in prison?

    How was his blitz pickup in the Vikings game when Antoine Winfield came off the slot about 9 times in a row to sack him? How about when he didn’t even LOOK at the left side of the formation, to see Kerry Rhodes, knowing they were calling a slow-developing play action on the goalline? And he’s a lefty!

    Attempting a diving tackle on Troy Polamalu, after throwing an interception in a PRESEASON game is the right move for a franchise QB? Come on. I hope Vick is able to admit the weaknesses in his game better than you are, for all of our sake.

    Vick may still be top 5 in the league in speed but he has lost a step, and he doesn’t seem to have the ability to feel pressure and avoid it within the pocket. It’s not all about speed, either. For a QB taking off and running, guys like Russell Wilson & Cam Newton might not be as straight line fast as Vick, but have a better sense of how to set up blocks, and carry the football to avoid fumbling, and are therefore more effective runners, IMO. Vick has always been about 1 vs. 1 (or even 2 or 3 vs. 1) elusiveness. I don’t think Kelly’s system is going to priortize that over Vick seeing a hole engineered open by blocks and exploding through it. The freelancing led to a lot of the turnovers.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    I like how you cherry pick things.

    - Vick’s ability to pick up the blitz improved last year from 2011 – this isn’t conjecture it’s numerical fact.

    - Vick’s balls getting batted down at the line of scrimmage has improved from 2011 – this once again isn’t conjecture but numerical fact.

    - He has a higher completion percentage as an Eagle than he ever had as a Falcon. Once again not conjecture but a numerical fact.

    “Vick may still be top 5 in the league in speed but he has lost a step, and he doesn’t seem to have the ability to feel pressure and avoid it within the pocket.”

    Lost a step for a guy who was impossible to catch means now that he’s still blazing fast – just not super sonic fast. Vick is NOT slow.

    “How about when he didn’t even LOOK at the left side of the formation, to see Kerry Rhodes, knowing they were calling a slow-developing play action on the goalline?”

    PLEASE tell me you’re not talking about the same play where Shady MISSED a block and Vick was on his butt at the 3 second mark. It was a quick play – not a slow developing one – a block was missed and Vick was on his butt by the time his back foot hit the ground. Play clocks are great things – you can watch the time tick away. There were enough folk in to block – except they didn’t – and Vick paid the price. That wasn’t on him that was on Shady.

    I”m well aware of what Vick’s limitations are. I’ve written about them plenty of times before. It’s folk like you who write “THe Sky is Falling” when it isn’t. A decent oline would have solved problems in both 2011 and 2012 OR a decent defense would have solved problems in 2011 or 2012 – QB hasn’t been the Eagles biggest issue NOT by a long shot.

    But when that QB is M. Vick…well…it’s always his fault. Even when it’s not.

  • EaglePete

    how he does it is the problem. Head first leaves him wide open to fumbles as opposed to feet first. Defenders cant hit the feet first sliding QB but can lay out the head first slide hence all the fumbles. Then the injury factor also with head collisions, so ya, it kind of matters.

  • EaglePete

    anyone see Peyton Manning throw last season. Hes lost his arm strength, has always thrown wobblers throughout his career. He makes up for it with everything else. Now nobody can really get to Peytons level without everything else, but you can make up for arm strength other ways and be a consistent QB that plays at a high level. Other QBs have done it.

  • #7

    In a perfect world, we all would like this to happen. We just have to hope for the best man.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    Very good point. One of the problems on the goal line were out small offensive linemnan. There was no heavy package so we couldn’t just push it in on those short yardage situations.

  • #7

    That should change this year hopefully

  • #7

    Man they do not see missed blocks. I told you that these are fans that take the easy way out. All things that fail on a team has EVERYTHING to do with the QB and NOT what is going on around the QB in their eyes.

    The thing is, Vick could have made the correct blitz call, but if someone misses a block, these folks will not acknowledge it and will QUICKLY blame the QB. Especially if it’s Vick. Foles can miss assignments and to them it surely can’t be because of Foles’ intelligence lol. Never that

  • JofreyRice

    I can agree that Shady missed a block, but to not even look at who is blitzing is not doing your job as the QB. The QB has the BALL! Even if he can’t guess the coverage, at the very least he he has to know who’s coming. How could he have made the correct blitz call when he didn’t even look at Rhodes?

  • #7

    Point made JofreRice. One thing about we 4 Vick Supporters. We can acknowledge the flaws in #7′s game. You Foles guys seem to cherry pick on Vick big time and fail to point out what really happens in the play in question. And also, why bring up that instance from 2010? I BBaaS said, the man has made improvements since then

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    There wasn’t time to look. He knew how many defenders were in and who was there to block. He said so in the interview:

    “We had enough in to block.”

    The play was a quick throw to Celek – take the snap throw to Celek – that works if SHADY MAKES THE BLOCK. You keep looking over the fact the play was DEAD at the 3 second mark. DEAD. He was on his butt at 3 seconds. THERE WAS NO TIME TO THROW. He wasn’t getting hit at 3 seconds…it was DEAD – he was hit as soon as the ball was snapped ’cause SHADY MISSED THE BLOCK.

  • nicksaenz1

    I agree with that. My counter is with such a crappy success rate on the pass, as well as known likelihood of a pass, still gotta mix it up.

  • JofreyRice

    dude, how many times do I have to say it: I AM NOT A FOLES GUY. He consistently underthrows on downfield bucket throws, makes a ton of bad decisions because he doesn’t understand the coverage, and throws a lot of scattershot wobblers on intermediate stuff. Coming into this offseason I allowed that he’s a rookie, and hoped he would improve, but never did I turn a blind eye to his faults. You’re creating a false binary. Just because I don’t fall down at the feet of Mike Vick doesn’t mean I’m a Foles Fan.

    Why do I bring up 2010? Because Vick has been facing 0 blitzes and mush rushes since his days in Atlanta, and has never really had a good answer for them (i.e. get the ball out quickly to a hot read and make them pay). Look at the opener in Cleveland last year. SAME THING, and they barely beat a very bad team. Jauron was bringing TJ Ward and Eric Hagg, undisguised to pressure Vick, and he responded with a terrible performance (to his credit, he really played well in the 2 minute drill, when the Browns got conservative). If Brandon Weeden didn’t have an even worse day than Vick, that would have been a L.

  • #7

    It’s not falling at the feet of Vick. Nothing wrong with acknowledging who the best player for the position is. That’s the point of a blog, right?

    To say you’re not a “Foles guy” you sure do not critique him much

  • cliff henny

    think we should make new phillymag rule…in handle have to put qb of choice and percentages. ie cliff henny- neither/’14 draft-gun to head 50.1% vick

  • #7

    Can only go off of what I’ve seen you post bro. I do not know your entire blogging history. I surely do not see you critiquing Foles as much as you do #7.

    No big deal man. It’s fun

  • Andy124

    But would that be qb prediction % or preference %?

  • JofreyRice

    Shady didn’t have the ball. RBs misses a blitz pickup and it costs the team an opportunity on a play. If the QB & the RB miss a blitzer because he didn’t turn his head and look, it costs the team points and games.

    It’s really surprising to me that you’re actually defending the fact that Vick did not glance at the entire defense. I know you’re a Vick fan through thick and thin, but this is really surreal that you don’t think a QB has a responsibility to look at the defense pre-snap–essentially that the RB and OL should handle everything.

  • JofreyRice

    I’d be interested to see some of my gung-ho Foles posts. I don’t remember writing them.

  • Andy124

    I guess it’s time you start then. :)

  • cliff henny

    sure, whatever…just alleviate alot of assumption issues.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    I’m not a Vick fan through thick and thin…the incessant Vick hate annoys me ’cause it’s uncalled for…who said he didn’t look pre-snap. Rhodes came uncovered b/c of a missed block NOT b/c Vick didn’t know he was there.

    You’re making assumptions – the post game interview Vick was clear…we had enough guys in to cover all their defenders. He KNEW who was there. Rhodes came hard ’cause no one covered him as they should – he wasn’t a free blitzer – dude was covered. Shady should have had Rhodes and didn’t – instead he went to help with the other guy (don’t remember who was all in on the play) instead of covering Rhodes.

    And again I say – the play was DEAD at 3 seconds…meaning if Vick had looked he’d have still gotten hit – it was because SHADY didn’t BLOCK HIS MAN.

    The fact that you want to place an obvious blocking error on the QB is ridiculous.

  • JofreyRice

    Reasonable critique of his shortcomings =/= incessant Vick hate.

    Was this McCoy’s fault too?

    Notice Al Michaels call “It’s Winfield, AGAIN”. The slot guy was WIDE open, but since Vick didn’t see Winfield was blitzing until he was about 24″ from strip-sacking him for another TD, he never got it to him.

    But I’m supposed to believe that in ’11 & ’12 he had some epiphany, despite the statistical and anecdotal evidence to the contrary? SMH. It sounds like Vick is winning this competition fair & square. That’s great, I’m all for the best guy winning, and I care less about the “future of the franchise” than a lot of people, but Vick’s mistakes are real, and documented, and he needs to make less if the Eagles are going to win games 2 times more often than they lose.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    Where did I say epiphany?

    Where did I say Vick didn’t have problems?

    I said he has improved in two of his biggest areas – blitz pickup and batted down passes since he’s been here. And he has. This from last year:

    “Yet, as hard as this may be to believe, Vick has played his best
    football this season when opposing defenses have sent extra rushers after him.

    The man who supposedly has more trouble recognizing a blitz than Ryan Howard does a curveball has a substantially better passer rating this season when teams have blitzed him than when they’ve used three- or four-man rushes.

    Vick has an impressive 95.7 passer rating against the blitz, compared with only 66.6 against a regular rush. In the last three games, his blitz numbers are off the charts – a 129.1 passer rating, .667 completion percentage, 9.5 yards per attempt, four touchdown passes and no interceptions.

    “He’s done a fine job against the blitz,” offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg said. “Even earlier in the year, we weren’t great, but pretty good against it. Of late, we’ve been very good.”

    Notice I KEEP saying that Vick has CONSISTENTLY shown improvement in areas he has generally been deficient (well except for fumbling. No fix there) – you KEEP pointing out oh “But he does this and he does that” No S*it. BUT he’s not anywhere near as bad at it as you want to make him out to be and ONCE AGAIN – he’s made CONSISTENT improvements in those areas.

    He’s not Peyton Manning against the blitz and likely never will be. But form 2010 ’till now he’s been much better (even with the bad line) and there’s no reason to beleive he won’t continue to improve PARTICULARLY in a hurry up offense where he has CONSISTENTLY shown he excels.

  • Guest

    The statistical evidence back me up. Consistent improvement.

    SMH. Some people.

  • nicksaenz1

    It’s senseless man. Don’t let yourself be aggrevated.

  • #7

    Very nice

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    Actually –

    “that don’t agree with your worldview, but that doesn’t make them irrelevant or untrue, objectively”

    That has nothing to do with it – it’s not the stat that’s the issue it’s how people use it that’s the problem – I’m not going to comment on something until I look at the methodology – that’s with any study – not just PFF – because HOW it’s done let’s you know the limitations of how it can be applied. I’s much easier to quote stuff instead of taking the time to really look at and understand things.

    “You’re right, Vick has shown an ability to get the ball out very
    quickly. That’s one of the hallmarks of his career so far. Any stat that suggested something to the contrary must be wrong.”

    Way to go for missing the point…again – there’s a reason why the fastest QBs in the league also had the highest release stats. But like I said those who don’t read (or understand) how a stat came to be are doomed to repeat it…incorrectly.

    “Oh, so it was his idea to take a massive paycut? RIGHT. Chip is the reason he stayed? You mean the guy he thought was the Notre Dame coach? Ay yi-yi!”

    Notice once again..not what I said. Way to miss the point as usual.

  • JofreyRice

    haha, as if you are not a Vick fan first and foremost. Do you ever even post about anything other than how Vick is so much better than Foles? You don’t accept the PFF stat because you don’t like it, this isn’t rocket science.

    The reason why his time to release is important is that last year, the longer he held it, the worse the result was when the play was over. Fumble, interception, incompletion, sack. That’s what you get when you look at how he plays under pressure (I know, you’re not willing to look at that, except for the stats the Domo gathered) and his penchant for turnovers with how long he holds the ball.

    You know who #1 and #2 were in time to release? Russell Wilson & RG3. But they were also VERY good under pressure, so you can live with it. When your guy is holding onto the ball and then coughing it up to the other team, you tell him to get it out quicker.

    You said he stayed for Chip, which is conjecture on your part–pretending that it was going to be his choice to leave the org, otherwise. He didn’t even know who Chip was.

    It’s actually my fault for attempting to discuss the situation with any kind of nuance with an all-out Vick fanatic. Ironically, the guy with the handle #7 is more reasonable. My original point is that I’d like to see Vick freelance less, and play within the system more. Being a consistent player week-to-week is the way you win in the NFL, not making some crazy highlight once in a while. You obviously don’t think it’s a problem. I’m done (for real, this time).

  • Token

    Im trying to figure out how you are trying to read into that stat. You are saying because Vick is fast the release time is bogus because hes running around making people miss?

    He took more sacks last year. WIth more sack yards. And had a far less average per run. In less games played.

  • nicksaenz1

    You should keep using the joke because it was really funny the first 5 times.

  • Maggie

    Rookie messing up or “holding a clipboard” – Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, etc. etc. Barkley should count himself fortunate to have the chance.

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    “You don’t accept the PFF stat because you don’t like it, this isn’t rocket science”

    Sigh – the PFF stat’s methodology looked at from the time the ball was snapped until it crossed the line of scrimmage. It didn’t make disticntion between negative and positive plays.


    QB 1 – snaps the ball gets sacked.
    QB 2 – snaps ball take a check down for 5 yards.
    QB 3 – snaps the ball avoids the sack and and runs for 10 yards.

    Who held onto the ball the least amount of time? Who held onto it more? Who had the most positive yardage?

    Mobile QBs hold onto the ball longer because their mobile and run more – it’s no coincidence those guys (the fastest QBs in the league) have the highest release stats.

    “The reason why his time to release is important is that last year, the longer he held it, the worse the result was when the play was over. Fumble, interception, incompletion, sack.”

    Right and his holding onto the ball longer had nothing to do with the play calling?

    I”m not going to take the time to go get the numbers – but Vick’s hold times last year were directly related to the play calling – As the team went more toward shorter/quicker plays (and no 7 step drop foolishness) his release stat decreased significantly. You know less running for his life can make the ball come out quicker.

    It dropped down to the 2.5 – 2.7 range.

    Now 2.7 is still high – ’cause yes both Foles and Vick have a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. But it’s not 3.0 second by a long shot.

    Once again methodology matters. I’ve worked in industries were case studies and stats are VERY important. So I spend a LOT of time actually READING a study not just quoting the results. It’s amazing what you find when you do that.

    But keep quoting flawed stats. I know it makes you feel better.

  • #7

    JofreyRice, you can call me a “Vick-Fanatic” do the same to BBaaS, but I have to disagree with you.

    You said that I was “more reasonable” I assume because I’m not afraid to admit Vick’s flaws and I can say that about BBaaS too. The thing about it is…you guys are coming with all of these stats and you’re getting proved wrong by him IMO.

    It seems that you guys do not see football as a team game. You “Vick Haters” eyes tend to be only on him and you guys miss the missed blocks by RBs, etc etc etc. They ALL HAVE A HAND in this. We point these things out and we’re “Vick Lovers”

    You must see that I rarely post stats on here. I’m just too lazy to go searching and I don’t need them because I’ve watched the games several times over. Vick had his mistakes, and my main thing with him is that he tries to do to much, which we both agree on, I think, but some of the things that you point out you seem to miss the team aspect of it. You never mention anything about a lineman or a RB missing a block. It is beyond you that the coaching could play a role in things. No mention of that at all, but as soon as someone gives Vick credit, you’re ready to shoot them down. I like your posts, but your eye and blame is focused solely on the QB

  • Token

    lol the old stats dont mean anything line when you realize your argument is baseless.

  • #7

    I’ll continue to use it. Thanks.

  • Token

    You seem to want to look at Vick in some bubble. Forgetting his career. He has ALWAYS been a leader in holding onto the ball. He cant make quick decisions. So all these years, its the play calling?

  • A Big Butt and a Smile


    I just quoted you were even the offensive coordinator who doesn’t like him said he improved…with numbers to back it up. Shiel has break downs that show he improved. Once again I’m not making that up – that’s a numbers thing. Argue with them and tell them their numbers are wrong.

    “In 2011 he had 14 according to PFF. Doug Pederson had it at 19.
    In 2012 he had 2.5% knocked down, so 8. Well on his way to at least matching 2011s mark before injury.”

    It’s percentages that matter. A look at “aimed throws” is how it goes – that improved from 2011 to 2012. But hey keep missing the point.

  • #7

    What’s wrong nicksaenz1? You were pretty much guaranteeing that Vick would lose and he would be cut. Looks like your dream is about to be smashed. Tell Foles to raise his game, like Vick did, or he WILL be holding that clipboard. I love it

  • A Big Butt and a Smile

    And he’s ALWAYS been one of the fastest QBs in the league.

    Notice I didn’t say the stat was bogus ’cause of Vick. I said there is a reason why mobile QBs top the list. That’s not just a Vick thing.

  • Token

    I feel like you arent getting it. What does his speed matter? I realize you are trying to say hes running around buying time so therefore that number is higher.

    But that would only matter if the outcomes were better. If hes buying time and then making plays thats a whole other thing. Instead, hes just running around being a moron. Throwing INTs and fumbling the ball at a historic rate.

  • Adam

    Vick fans seem to think speed = automatic success in Chip’s read option offense.

  • JofreyRice

    Right, if you put it all together: Hold onto the ball longer than just about everyone + Bad under pressure + lots of turnovers when getting sacked, one should vaguely come to the conclusion that Vick should get it out quicker. Or it’s not an issue at all…

    I guess it was all about square peg round hole Reid (who had nothing to do with Vick being a better QB than he was in ATL).

    Long sigh.

  • #7

    We do not know, but IMO there is a very good chance of it

  • Token

    Running around behind the LOS is about the last thing Chip Kelly wants.

  • #7

    Maybe that is because Chip will call plays to get the ball out quickly instead of the 7 step drops needed to throw deeper routes to 10#. Once Foles came in the game, I saw a huge drop in deeper routes being called by MM and AR. I’m sure you’ll dispute since I said it lol

  • JofreyRice

    OK this is from this very thread:

    “I can agree that Shady missed a block, but to not even look at who is blitzing is not doing your job as the QB”

    The QB has the ultimate responsibility to read the defense and adjust. Shady was in his Field of View, so even if he *thought* Shady was going to pick up Rhodes pre-snap, when he saw Shady in front of him, he must have realized that Rhodes was free (if, like the dude BBaaS says, he knew Rhodes was coming, all along). Now, the way he got hit, makes it look like he didn’t have the foggiest idea, because he was rushing to get the play off before the end of the half.

    QB is the hardest position in pro sports precisely because you have so much responsibility. I’m judging Vick on Vick, and giving you specific examples. I see a lot of acrobatic moves to try and remove blame from Vick in those examples, but nothing that is very persuasive.

  • Maggie

    Perhaps you have forgotten that the quarterbacks are NOT calling the plays? This is for ICDogg, btw.

  • Maggie

    Odd. The O-line components mentioned above did not include Watkins. As usual, Dutch wanders off-topic, but is STILL always right.

  • #7

    Confused BIG TIME lol

  • Maggie

    How do you mean “made up for it with everything else”? The guy is almost 5 years older than Vick, has been in the league for 16 years, has a ton of highlight reels, like Vick, has only won once, yet he is NEVER called out by the media or the commenters on any board.

  • Token

    Well then if you blame it on the coaching, it was the same coaches in 2010 when people seem to think Jesus himself came down and played QB for us for a few games.

    Its always been the same theme with Vick. Its everyone elses fault. Vick has never in his life tried to improve as a QB. He says the things people want to hear. But it never bares out. I mean, there are actually people on here that are excited because Vick said he has finally learned to slide. Folks, he has said that kind of thing since he was drafted. Same as “im going to watch film”. Its not happening.

    2010 was a product of circumstance. Its now become some legendary season, when really is was just a few games. It was a mix of defenses not being ready and Vick being full speed faster than teams though. Add in the fact that we played some god awful defenses during that stretch and there ya go.

  • #7


  • #7

    I though you were done :)

    Just have to disagree man. BBaaS is spot on

  • #7

    And I would prefer not to live in Philly lol.

  • JofreyRice

    haha, yeah, can’t help myself. Fair enough.

  • A Roy

    In the same manner that a Chinese butterfly, beating its’ wings, affects our weather. We are all interrelated, Grasshopper.