Eagles Wake-Up Call: Kelly Explains Why He Brought Vick Back

(Last month, a group of reporters had the opportunity to sit down with head coach Chip Kelly for an hour-long session. The contents of that conversation have been embargoed until now. We’ll pull from that interview over the next several days as we begin our training camp previews.)

We have received this question more than perhaps any other since Chip Kelly decided to bring  Michael Vick back on a one-year deal: If this is a long-term project, why invest a year in a veteran quarterback who might not be part of future plans?

Chances are Vick won’t be here much longer. Meanwhile, there are two young quarterbacks on the roster that will be relegated to the sidelines if Vick wins the job. How can you evaluate what you have in Nick Foles and/or Matt Barkley if they don’t play?

Kelly’s response to this question speaks to both his mentality and the challenge he faces during his transition from college to the pros.

“You want to talk about our players buying in? If I went in the locker room and said this is going to be a really good year for us to get ready for the following year, that’s not going to work,” he said. “No one has a mindset like that. So our decision isn’t based upon what is the future two years down the road, three years down the road. I don’t think that far.”

Really, he can’t afford to. True, he signed a lucrative five-year deal and owner Jeffrey Lurie will give him some leeway as he builds the program in his vision. It’s not about capturing the confidence of his employer — he already has that. It’s about establishing credibility with the 53 men he is in charge of leading on a daily basis.

This is not just a run-of-the-mill college coach trying to make the leap. Kelly is branded as an out-of-the-box thinker with new methods that have yet to be tested on this level. Guys are wearing sleep monitors to bed, practicing at warp speed and essentially being asked to re-think the way they have done things up until this point. Maybe the Eagles don’t need to advance to the NFC Championship Game in Year One, but there needs to be some tangible proof that Kelly’s unorthodox approach will net results.

Vick is likely seen as the best quarterback on the roster by most of his peers. Certainly the most established.  How would it be if Kelly’s first move was to dismiss the team’s best QB? What if the Foles or Barkley experience fell flat on its face? Where would the confidence level in the new coach be then?

“My job is to win right now. How do you think I’d be received in Philly if I told them we were going to write this year off?” Kelly asked. “Those people that are waving to me on the streets right now? That ain’t going to happen. But that’s never been my mentality either. We’re not writing anything off. We’re going out there to compete and see how it falls.”

Kelly is a firm believer in position battles. He makes the players earn their starting jobs in practice and during the preseason. From his vantage point, it makes perfect sense to have Vick as part of the quarterback competition. Win or lose, the players will know that Kelly made the right call. In theory, at least.

“Everywhere I’ve been it’s played itself out on the field. Does that mean it’s going to happen here? I don’t know,” said Kelly. “But I’ve never been in a situation where we’ve had to make a decision and it’s like 50-50, pick it out of a hat. Somebody over the course of time has stepped up and has ‘won the battle.’ That’s what you’re hoping to have happen again here, and hopefully it’s evident to everybody, like ‘There’s no question that it’s this guy because his game stepped up.’”

WHAT YOU MISSED

Who has Pro Bowl promise under Kelly? That and more in the latest Twitter Mailbag.

Applying “Smart Football” Concepts to the Eagles.

Can the Eagles bounce back and make the playoffs in 2013?

WHAT THEY’RE SAYING

Andrew Kulp on what to expect from rookie tight end Zach Ertz. 

Don’t go overboard. If all goes according to plan, Ertz could eventually develop into one of the most dangerous weapons on the team, but there is reason to believe he could be brought along slowly as a rookie.

For one, as was already touched on, Ertz isn’t supposed to be much of a blocker. That’s no small detail, as blocking is typically a fairly large part of the job description for most tight ends. Guys can get away with being more receiver-inclined when they’re putting up big numbers, but Ertz is starting from the bottom, so he’ll likely have to improve that aspect of his game to earn the trust of the coaching staff.

Donovan McNabb thinks Foles might be best suited to run Kelly’s system. He had the following to say on NFL Network:

 “When you’re a quarterback it’s important that you protect the football. And when you have a guy like Michael Vick, we know about his athletic ability but he has an ability to turn the ball over entirely too much. Nick Foles is kind of a future guy that you can work on. In the offense that Oregon ran, it might be better suited for a guy like Nick Foles because you don’t have to be so mobile, just get the ball out of your hands and make plays for the receivers.

COMING UP

More from our conversation with Kelly. Ten days until rookies report.

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  • nicksaenz1

    I’ll say this, from day 1, Kelly has come in and shown that he can handle the media. How he does with the media should we start out in dismal fashion is another thing, but, so far, he’s handled the media exquisitely. Based on what he said in the article, he gave all of the right answers, using the simple premise that he has to get the team to buy in.
    $3.5mil to help the team buy what he’s selling? Cost of doing business. Smart man. I didn’t like bringing back Vick at all, but for this reason alone, I’ll eat my words. Means if/when Foles does earn the job, the team will get behind that. I dig it.

    • Jack Waggoner

      And there’s a potential payoff, though increasingly a longshot, that Vick could put it all together and be the QB people have hoped for years he could be.

      • nicksaenz1

        You’re absolutely right. I don’t see it, but entirely plausible. Either way, for the sake of building the team, that’s $3.5mil well spent.

  • Jack Waggoner

    It’s interesting that McNabb’s opinions are getting so much media attention lately. He’s trying to angle his way into a media career, I think.

    The explanation as to why Kelly kept Vick is a little difficult to process, but I guess he had a couple of bad options either of which would make him lose credibility among the players he’s trying to get to buy in to his way of doing things. Kelly could have left it in Roseman’s hands, but that would have made Kelly seem powerless if Roseman dumped Vick.

    • nicksaenz1

      JW, McNabb does have somewhat of a media career, that’s why he has the platform to be quoted.

    • southy

      He is fast becoming (imo rather unfortunately) NFL Network’s “QB Analyst” like Dilfer is on ESPN. He’s expected to take a stance one way or the other, or call guys out like RGIII.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Ahh this whole outside the box narrative is getting old. Asking your players to get a good nights sleep and up-tempo practices don’t really seem that new age to me. It’s different than the last scheme sure, Can breaking something down to its basic simplicity be considered futuristic in the NFL? Because that’s all Chip is doing.

    1. Practicing at an up tempo speed = more like what a game is going to be like, the way offenses are transforming these days.
    2. Practicing with loud music = They have that at NFL games. What a strange coincidence!
    3. Getting a good nights sleep = Apparently that’s good for you.
    4, Eating healthy, getting nutrients = Hey, apparently this is too.

    I don’t see this as outside the box. I see this as the most inside the box you can break it down to. But maybe that’s just me. Maybe I’ve been fully brainwashed by Chippah and this is all crazy talk and will never work in the NFL.

    • Bdawkbdawk

      Look, all of Chips ideas have a rationale. And these rationales make pretty good sense. But his practice style isn’t innately superior. As a coach you can have a holistic approach to preparation, or you can divide up and specialize. Chip chooses the holistic approach by forcing his players to condition in-practice and by not interrupting drills to teach. There are many benefits to this because it replicates game conditions and promotes competition, but it is not a certainty that his players will understand the plays as well or be as fit as if he split these activities out and devoted more time to them.
      And I completely agree about the benefits of sleep and nutrition. However, telling multimillionaire star athletes who are at the peak of their earning potential, popularity, and physical prowess that they should stay in and not party – or that the tiny quarterpounder with cheese in their hands can make them play worse is difficult. Monitoring these behaviors is even more difficult. I bet I would be a little more productive at work if I slept more and ate in ways that promoted brain activity. (obviously an unbalanced comparison because my industry is about one millionth as competitive and I don’t have people running 25 miles an hour at my face). But if my boss tried to force a sleep monitor on me, I would not be happy. I happen to think Chip is correct and that these are battles worth fighting, but I don’t think it is an easy or foregone conclusion at all.

      • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

        Why is it always assumed that these guys are going to buck this stuff so hard? Chip has made of a point of explaining his decisions to the guys and showing them the benefits of doing things his way. He’s never been like “eat this, wear this, and don’t ask why. I’m the coach and you’ll do it my way.” If your boss were to come to you and tell you you’ve been doing hard work to get where you are but I’ve got some ways that we can maximize your potential so you can be the best of the best. They can earn that next big contract, stay healthy for the entire season so they can keep getting paid, and most importantly win football games and some day that elusive Lombardi Trophy. While he doesn’t have an NFL experience, he just needs to show what he did at New Hampshire and Oregon to see that there’s a method to his madness.

        I guess the big question in who on our roster can afford to spurn the new coaches plans? Who on this team has had enough success over the last 2 seasons to say “what I’m doing was fine, I don’t need this ish!”, or has the contractual or financial security to think he’s untouchable? Vick on his one year rental contract? DJax and Maclin who are essentially in contract years? Peters, whos replacement was just drafted and he’s coming off a serious injury? Cole, who may be lost in a scheme change? I would say McCoy, maybe Mathis/Herremans. And Chip’s scheme is tailor made for these guys, so it would be stupid not to buy in. McCoy could and should be an All-Pro playing for Chip.

        Maybe my Chippah glasses are extra rosey this morning but to me a 4-12 football team doesn’t have that many luxuries, especially the way the Eagles have done their team friendly contracts. Maybe coming off that 8-8 season I could see some guys getting difficult. But not 4-12.

        • G_WallyHunter

          Great post, in complete agreement. By what we’ve seen so far, all the players are buying in, the ones who have spoken anyways. They know Chip isn’t screwing around and if they don’t want to buy in and work hard, he’ll cut em loose with no remorse. I love this about this year, CK is coming in with absolutely 0 preconceived notions, every player is battling for the spot, now we know which ones will stand out and get the spots, but that is because they’ve clearly proven it. Never been so excited for the season to start….

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            While I’m saying all this, I realize the big test will be if we start losing a few games early. That will be the real test to seperate the believers from the non-believers, and we’ll find out who Chip will keep around going forward and who will be expendable.

          • G_WallyHunter

            OH YA… for sure… I’m worried about the preseason from that aspect. What if they go 0-4 in preseason and the offense just looks terrible (along with the D)… lol we will not be happy campers that’s for sure. I’ll lock myself in my place and play GTA V and live my life through the game instead

        • Bdawkbdawk

          Your glasses are extra rosey this morning. I wasn’t assuming anything. Instead I was acknowledging that Chip is making requests that not many other coaches ask of their players. And even though these requests are logical, he is asking rich, supremely talented, young men with big egos (and rightfully so) to make compromises. These are the same guys that run as fast as they can at 250 pound men and tackle with their heads-then to celebrate they hit each other on the helmets!. I’m not saying theyre dumb – because theyre not. Instead I think (like most young people) that they put an inordinate amount of value on short term value calculations and have an air of invincibility. To believe that eating a cheeseburger or an hour more of rest could be the difference in breaking a tackle or winning a game goes against the very no-fear ethos that most players embrace to be so successful. I am not saying players will buck the system. But if you had to imagine a person most likely to buck chip kelly’s sytem, it would be a star NFL player.
          My point about his practice environment is dissimiliar. I think players will buy into the up tempo fast learning approach. I am not certain that these methods are superior though. It seems like there are two competing schools of thought – both with benefits and drawbacks.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            I hear what you’re saying. But at the same time I disagree. I think with Chip being brought in by Lurie to continue his success he’s had as a program builder, it’s not him that has to sell his ways to the players. It’s a matter of who is going to buy in and be part of the program going forward, because you best believe any one that Chip drafts or brings in from now in will be guys that will buy in. I keep coming back to this, but after these last 2 seasons these guys egos should be non-existent.

            One of Chips philosophies is teach to the smartest guy, it’s up to everyone else to keep up. Guys that don’t keep up will be left behind, and replaced. It may take a season or two, but I believe this roster will be culled and made over a massive amount, and you’re going to see a locker room full of guys that have bought in.

  • Scott J610

    It’s all irrelevant. Vick will get injured and one of these young players will take over.

  • eaglepete

    How about this scenario. Vick starts, plays very well since he does have excellent numbers in the hurry up. Reduced turnovers, more run game and he improves his other areas. What happens the following season if we say win division and a playoff game (not likely imo but never say never right). Or even go 9-7 and miss playoffs but see improvement all around including MV. Vick has to come back and start right? Is this a dream or nightmare scenario because this subject hasnt been beat to death already haha.

  • NickS1

    I hope we’re in on trying to sign Kerry Rhodes. Saw a report (not guaranteeing accuracy from SB Nation) where he said there’s 4 teams he’s talking to. I hope we’re one of them.

  • Token

    If Kelly’s #1 thing he looks for in a QB is decision making than Vick has no shot at winning the job. We will see if hes full of crap over the next month.

    • Dutch

      decision making in the pocket isn’t a strong suit for Nick Foles, and it’s never been through college. Decisions, accuracy, arm strength and viewing the field are not part of Foles forte’ and was evident through is career at Arizona and with the Eagles in his appearances in 2012.

      If we don’t switch to Barkley by mid season we are doomed.

  • DeSean Grayson

    I think you bring Vick back because he still strikes FEAR into NFL defenses with his arm and his legs. Chip is doing it right, make Vick earn the job and still see what you have in Foles. BUT THE THING THAT STRIKES ME AS ODD IS WHY DENNIS DIXON DOES NOT GET ANY CONSIDERATION IN THIS QB BATTLE? Wasnt he the QB that made you relevant @ Oregon. He still has plenty in the tank due to the fact that he never played in Pittsburgh and was a practice squad QB in Baltimore. Is he really that horrible, i dont think so.

  • usmcnole

    I think Chip is doing a great job of making Mike work for it though. For the first time, he is in a real competition for the starting job. Everyone in the building knew Kevin Kolb wouldn’t be able to hold off Vick. I think (and hope) Mike is up for the challenge.

  • G_WallyHunter

    I hope he does, whether he is going to that’s completely up in the air.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    And I’m sure, judging from your handle, there’s no bias involved

  • Rick Lindquist

    We will know by game 3 of the pre season.

  • G_WallyHunter

    Ya that’s a tough one, they’re both pretty annoying. Like someone said yesterday, I loved McNabb when he was in midnight green… but with a mic on? He’s a giant d bag

  • eaglepete

    I dont mind either but Im also not as young as I once was, watching every single second of sportscenter and the awful NFL network which has only gone downhill somehow. That being said, people just love hatin McNabb, I think hes decent on radio and TV. Jaws used to be considered by most as one of the best analysts (tv wise anyway) as recent as 5 or so yrs ago. Now everyones had enough of him, which is always the case in TV if were honest.

  • aub32

    I couldn’t agree more. We aren’t Jacksonville or the Jets. Nor are we in a division with the 49ers and Seahawks. We have talent and the easiest schedule in the league. Not to mention Vick has owned this division, going 11-3 in games he started and finished against division opponents. Let’s go win some games.

  • Warhound

    …bullets… ? NFL fields aren’t downrange!

  • aub32

    Just because he may be a fan of a player does not mean he can’t form an unbiased opinion. Are you telling me that if Kelce makes a mistake you wouldn’t have the ability to be critical of him?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Not at all; but the whole “deep down we know who will win” talk is slightly counter to the notion of open competition. If Vick was so amazing, he’d have the job already.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Well, I guess “deep down”, I just have different feelings about who will win the job.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    QB situation aside, you really think the defense is in a good enough place to win a lot this year?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    We absolutely are the Jags or Jets UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. This team has been all talk and paper-talent for 2 years. The secondary just lost two pro-bowl CBs, and I don’t see how the safety situation is really that much better. Cox is great, but the other two DL are average at best. OLB situation is skill sketchy. Who’s covering Vernon Davis or Jimmy Graham up the seam? What happens if anyone from the following list gets hurt: Cox, Barwin, Graham, Ryans, Kendricks, Boykin, CW, Fletcher, Allen, Chung?

    I love optimism. The division Vick owned is not the same anymore. I have no idea what Dallas’ new D will look like; just like us, they could equally take to the 4-3 and dominate. Washington’s defense got healthier. I can can’t accept everything going right for us while everyone else falls apart.

  • aub32

    I can see where that could come off as biased. I look at it as saying we all, for the most part, can agree Vick is the more talented QB, and probably should win, lest he can’t handle the pressure. Personally, I don’t see a guy whose been through all that he has endured breaking down from the threat of Foles.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    MV,
    My arguments have been well-hashed over the past few weeks, but my opinion against Vick starting is not an indictment of the guy, nor praise for the other two guys. But you’re working under assumptions that:
    (1) Vick will immediately respond to this offense, and be able to run it in a superior fashion than the other
    (2) Contrary to every other year of his career, he will somehow stay healthy and consistent enough to maximize his, and the team’s, talent
    (3) Even a good or great year leaves us in the same pickle next year. If we truly need a franchise QB before next draft, we should know going in to it. Vick can never be the long term answer
    Plus, you and I disagree on having enough talent to “win now”; QB situation aside, the defense is not playoff-caliber IMO.

    I’m tired of this talent talk in july. We were talented the last 2 years too. Until there’s performance on the field, all of this talent and potential is moot.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    we had talent in july ’11 too. as well as july ’12. until the team shows otherwise, we absolutely are the oakland raiders, or [insert bad team here].

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    See, IMO, it’s a very important distinction to say “Vick is the most PHYSICALLY talented QB”. He has yet to prove mentally, over a decade, that he can put it together- let alone stay healthy. I don’t think his legs and arm make him any more probable to win the job than the other two.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Doesn’t really have to be. He’s played one full season in his entire career… I’m not sure even the biggest Vick fans can argue Mike can’t stay healthy.

  • Scott J610

    I’m not a psychic, I’m an Eagles fan who has been watching Vick play for the past few years. He WAS benched at the end of last year, remember? Same thing will happen this year.

  • aub32

    I think the offenses we face have their own set of problems. I think the teams in our division are very inconsistent and have their own bevy of problems. The same could be said of the NFCN outside of the Packers. I don’t really fear the AFCW outside of Denver, and that just leaves TB and ARZ. To break this down a little better:
    WAS: RG3′s health, myriad of secondary issues

    DAL: Accident waiting to happen, New DC (Kelly has owned him),
    Poor O line play

    NYG: Wilson?? Big dropoff in D line play (JPP?), Bad LBs,
    inconsistent rushing attack

    KC: New coach, Alex Smith, 2-14, (talented but can they put it
    together)

    OAK: Too many to list

    SD: See Oakland

    Bears: Bad O line, No BU, New coach

    DET: Not much outside of CJ, Horrible secondary

    Vikings: Everyone pile on AD

    TB: Does scare me, but I’m not sold on Freeman.

    ARZ: Palmer, New coaching staff, No real run game

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    It’s a good thing you’re so objective (so you say)
    Good lord- you answer any and all points on a hope and prayer. Psychic? It’s called educated guessing. No point keeping this going any longer, I guess we’ll just be 16-0

    DYNASTY

  • G_WallyHunter

    Good counter

  • Richard Colton

    based on your screen name, I took you for a Vick sycophant (a Vickophant), but your first point was good. Nobody other than CK truly knows what the offense will be.

    Then you said: “Vick is 33, a young 33.” Which tells me you’re willing to be dishonest to prop up your guy. Vick was one of the youngest starting QBs in the league. He started year one. He’s taken hits like a RB for ten + years. If anything, he’s an OLD 33.

  • NickS1

    1) So why couldn’t Foles or Barkley thrive in the offense, given the accuracy of both is better and they’d throw less?

    2) One full season of 16 games, odds are he’d get himself injured

    3) Long term depends on your definition. He’s got maybe 3 years if he can prove that he can play at a high enough/turnover reduced level, and we wouldn’t know that until after the season. Based on what’s known now, unlikely.

  • Dutch

    You’re going to have a run dominate offense sprinkle with the threats of the QB to run if the opening is there, the passing game will resemble WCO patterns focusing on short and intermediate routes or in most WCO patterns “Long Handoffs”

    By virtue of the shorter routes the ball comes out fast but there aren’t progression reads, where the ball is going is pretty much decided before the ball is snapped. If the route closes unexpectedly the QB brings the ball down and takes off.

    This offense with the exception of the wco routes is no different than what kelly did at oregon. What will be different is any formation where the QB is directly under center.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    You’re a brave man, Aub….not that I particularly disagree with what you called out about those teams, but I never get into trying to predict W/L this early. I’m guessing half those teams “fix” some of those issues, and like every year there are a few surprises.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Sure these teams have problems, but what about the Eagles? New Coach? New Schemes? New players? tons of questions at OLB? Can our WR’s produce? Can our line stay healthy? Can our secondary play well?

    You seem to be banking on the stars aligning for the Eagles but not any other team.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    It’s a simple acknowledgement of a basic truth. You Vick guys all complain when we harp on his negatives, yet you’re detached from reality regarding these simple, evident issues that have plagued him over 10+ years.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Yeah, I can see where this is going. Because I say Michael Vick can’t stay healthy, which is absolutely true, I’m having a negative attitude? It’s called being realistic. I’m sorry your blind love for Vick doesn’t let you see that.

  • aub32

    I’m not predicting anything. I’ve learned that lesson long ago. I am just showing why I think these teams are beatable. I am sure fans of these teams could make the same claims about us, almost exactly in most cases. I am just pointing out it’s not like we are facing the cream of the crop, and if, and it’s a big if, we make the playoffs; the team should be better eqipped to face the upper echelon teams with a full 16 games under their belt.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Hmmm…that last sentence makes me a little queasy deep down. Let’s say we make the playoffs- for that to happen, one of the QBs has to step up and play well (well enough to win; the other talent can’t mask anything worse than a Schaub-like performance). But if we’re beating up on “weak” teams to get there, does that really prepare us for the playoffs because of the games/reps? Say we go 9-7, scoring a lot of points but giving up a lot as well (in other words, defense plays just well enough to get us in). Does that mean they’re now, after 16 games of gelling, ready to handle Rodgers/Brees/Ryan?

    I will never say that I’m actually rooting against this team, but I think we’re in more of a rebuild than some fans admit. Some of this great talent on both sides may not be around next year simply due to scheme fit. I see this more as an evaluation year, and next year’s draft and FA will really adhere to the new vision of the team. So I guess in a way, I’m not hoping for too good a performance this year which might lead to some dishonest evaluations by the front office. I know a lot of this sounds terrible and pessimistic, but it’s just where I’m at as a fan right now. The last two years were hard on me.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    (see aub’s reply to my next post down)

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Well, o wise one, I’d love to see your rationale for why Vick will put it together this year and play into his 30′s like Brady, who is only one of the greatest QBs of all time. But I’m sure Vick is right up there, too. You seem to have a very loose definition of “educated”

    And no need to play to my ego. I knew I was amazing long before your confirmation.

  • G_WallyHunter

    great post. It is what it is with Vick, too many Vick lovers have their vision severely clouded… Let’s wait until week 3 or 4 and return to this discussion

  • Dutch

    That’s because you don’t identify the scheme a QB is subject to play in being critical to his success. There will be no comparison between Kelly’s scheme on offense and Andy Reid’s schemes. This point has been made abundantly clear since the signing of Kelly.

    The progression read offense under andy has no likeness to anything that Kelly runs. That’s obvious for anyone that truly understands the depth of the game. Vick is pretty much back to being an instinctive player and not being forced into a set up and scheme not conducive to his natural talents as a Quarterback.

  • aub32

    I disagree. Vick may not be in the Brady and Manning category, but you don’t last this long without a decent grasp of what’s lining up across from you. I think we can all agree that last year was a down year for Vick. However, I have yet to see this great mastery of the game from Foles. Foles surprised a lot of us and was then given way too much credit for doing the littlest things. He would call an audible and whether it worked or not, the media and fans alike would act as if he just drew up the entire play on the field. He made a great deal of mental mistkes, but they are overlooked by many because of the dismay around him. However, he was still the QB and in charge of every snap. Some of that is on him, and it’s not like he was touted as some footbal genius coming out of college. So I don’t think I need to preface my statement by saying Vick is the most “physically gifted” QB. Foles has just as much to prove, moreso in my mind, when it comes to mastery of what he sees on the field.

  • G_WallyHunter

    If Brady can do it then an injury-prone mobile Michael Vick who has severe turnover problems (Unlike Tom) can do it too… duhhhh

  • aub32

    I know this isn’t too the actual post, but I figured I’d address the most recent. Did the Redskins have a playoff caliber defense last year? Hell, did the Ravens prior to the playoffs? What about the Colts? The defense doesn’t have to be great. It just has to be good at spots. The problem with our defense the last two years is that they were never able to grind it out when it mattered. Hopefully the new coaching staff and the insertion of some “blue collar” players can change that. Also, I think you don’t realize what having Vick in the read option can do for our running game. Tebow turned an old McGahee into a top rusher in the league. Morris became a phenom standing next to RG3. Even Gore benefitted when Kaep took over. And I would take Shady a dozen times over any of those guys. Again this is all dependent on if the team can put it together but there’s reason to be hopeful.

  • Dutch

    Different scheme. This scheme will allow Vick to play more like 2010 and use his instincts as oppose to waiting on slow down field routes to develop through progression reads. I thought you guys read up on Kelly’s offense and watched tapes of his offenses at Oregon. Did you see receiver going deep as a intricate part of his attack? Pat Shurmur’s function is devising WCO pass patterns to compliment a run game.

    Again, that’s the obvious difference in the two offenses. It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp if you are at all familiar with Football.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    I’m not using any of my Vick criticisms as a support for the other guys; I’m also not calling the guy dumb, but I believe it’s entirely fair to say that his in-game adjustments and decision-making are not above-average for a QB. Sure, coaching and scheme and all that play into it, but he’s had way more games than Foles to figure it out already. I don’t have too much positive to say about Foles, to me he’s just the Great Unknown. If anything, Barkley has the most experience playing in a system similar to what we and the media envision Kelly running.

    For me, I still need that preface. Vick’s experience does not mean he’s smarter on the field.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Do you guys completely ignore the fact that you’re a rookie to the same standards as a 10+ year vet? How is that fair? And if you’re going to do that and you look at the numbers, you see that Vick isn’t much, if any, better than Foles. How does that look on Vick’s behalf?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    No, it’s not that. Brady has been in a consistent system his entire career. He’s played under a HOF coach his entire career. He’s played behind a great line most of his career. I think it’s also a safe guess to say he’s taken 20% of the hits Vick has taken over his career. So to say Brady is 35 and can still play does not mean Vick can also at 35. Their styles could not be more different.

    As one of the commenters on IgglesBlitz said, it’s not even apples and oranges. It’s apples and station wagons.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    I’m not bashing you because you’re optimitic, just that the support for your optimism doesn’t seem grounded. Brady and Vick could not be more different QBs. See my reply about 2 posts down to G_wally. Plunkett played well? Awesome. So did Steve Young. So did Elway. But there are 1000 qbs who didn’t. And Vick has taken more hits over his career than any of them. It is not a stretch to label him “injury prone”

  • G_WallyHunter

    Adam and rob couldn’t be more true here… we all would love for Vick to grasp the system and work his ass off to master this offense, we all want to see it happen, he would be one of the biggest QB threats in the league, and we would be very happy campers. But we are simply stating the basic truth and reality. Sure if CK runs the ball 53 times a game, there are much greater chances he won’t get injured, hopefully that happens. Bottom line he’s injury prone and to assume that he can make it through the season with ease is ignorant of that

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    If you can find one post of mine where I commended Fole’s skills at reading defenses, or called him Montana 2.0, I will give you $1 million.

    Not everything is so black and white- to point out a Vick criticism is not saying that Foles or Barkley are better at X, Y, or Z. If none of these guys had weaknesses, we would have a franchise QB.

    The problem is, Foles was a rookie thrown in the fire on a sinking ship. Anything from him last year was a bonus. Vick has been doing this too long to simply write these issues off.

  • aub32

    I don’t think it’s that they don’t like him as a person. I think that the narrative on Vick is that many view him as a great athlete, then a QB. So not much is made of when he does make adjustments because it’s not his specialty, like Manning or Brady. Foles got/gets so much attention because he was a rookie. Just like in OTAs how you heard so much positive about how much Foles improved compared to Vick. Vick can’t really do much in shorts that much of an improvement on what we already know. Foles on the other hand has a much lower bar to overcome. So it’s easy to say “wow he looks better”. The poblem is fans take that as he looks better than Vick, when in actuality he just loks better than the rookie we saw last year performing in shorts straight out of college.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Your Vick against the world mentality is completely ridiculous. Look at his play over the past two years and you’ll see why he get’s criticized. a 10-15 record and you think Vick should be untouchable? Vick signed a 100 million dollar contract to be the franchise QB of the Eagles and simply did not live up to that. Vick as a person has nothing to do with any of this. This is Vick the football player. So please stop with this BS about people not liking Vick.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    All three of those teams had far superior QB situations, and RGIII squeaked into the playoffs in a bad division on the last week after what, 8 wins in a row? I’m not saying we can’t make the playoffs. I just don’t know if that’s the greatest thing to happen this year.
    And I’m still not convinced the read option is really going to be a big part of the scheme. Nor am I convinced Vick can run it well simply because he’s athletic.

  • Dutch

    You’re right, none of the guys you’re in a debate with understand the basics of football and there fore have no concept about the importance of Quarterback who is a threat to run with the ball and the impact that has on a defense trying to contain an explosive running back in the likes of Shady. If Brown with Foles in the pocket set a rookie rushing record imagine what he’s capable of if the defense has to stay abreast of Vick keeping the ball?

    You’d have to have played on a defense facing such a dual threat to understand what that does to linebackers and safeties who are also instinctive players to know the disadvantage that leaves a defense. At the snap of the ball you can’t move or try and anticipate the handoff because the wrong step in any direction leaves you smoked. By the time you recover there is ground to be made up and if Vick or Shady is the ground you’re trying to make up it’s a long embarrassing day.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    After Foles has been in the league for a decade and played one full season, I will climb a mountain top and yell that he is injury prone for the whole world to hear.

    If you don’t care about the past, than you’re naive to the possibilities of the future. Optimism and blind optimism are different things.

  • aub32

    I’d rather go 9-7 with a first round knockout than 5-11. If we can go 9-7 with all the changes, young players, and FAs that would mean that Chip is our guy, and we will undoubtedly be in contention in 2014 barring injury. Let’s dismiss the notion that we will have a lower draft pick. We don’t know how the draft will shape up, and contrary to the belief of many, there’s talent outside of the first round. Howie doesn’t exactly strike me as the complacent type. He knows 9-7 isn’t good enough and will make the moves to make this team better. Also, can you imagine the amount of FAs that will want to come hear and play for “Chip Kelly the Innovator” if he has that kind of success turning around a 4-12 team. In my opinion, there’s nothing bad that can come of us having a winning season next year.

  • aub32

    Aren’t we in that same bad division? And was Tebow a better QB option than what we have? And I think you may need to check the stat sheets because Flacco wasn’t exactly lighting it up during the regular season.

  • Dutch

    The Redskins were 10-6, both times the Giants won the Super Bowl they finished 9-7, Had the Eagles defense in 2011 closed out a few games, the Eagles would have won the division at 9-7, Vick lead the 2010 team to a 10-6 and Division Title.

    the Eagles made the playoff while retooling over the tenure of Andy Reid on may of occassions and Eagles fans have come to expect as much during a retooling. Why should Eagles fans expect anything less with the offensive firepower we have with Vick playing in a scheme more suited to his strengthss and a much improved offensive line?

    Anything less than competitive and a charge for the Division is giving up on the season.

  • aub32

    I can’t agree on that. You can’t look at Vick’s past to state that he’s injury prone, but at the same time ignore his 10 years worth of starting experience. We saw Foles on the field last year. Pieces and O line aside, he didn’t come off as someone with an above average football acumen. Many of his “quick decisions” were because he picked his target coming out of the huddle. You make a point about Barkley, and there’s a legit chance that he may posses an above average and potentially great on the field IQ. But he has not played an NFL snap, and I can’t say that because he grasped the college game at an above average, but far from say an Andrew Luck that he can gain the same ground at the pro level. You can continue to preface your statements, but I will not until proven otherwise.

  • Dutch

    I agree, Vick’s experience doesn’t make him nor does any in game adjustments if the overall game plan is outside the skill set that Vick has. Andy Reid gave Vick a game plan and scheme that played directly into situational defenses strengths to contain and combat a Vick lead offense and did so behind a weak offensive line over the last 2 years.

    Mudd couldn’t get to Phila fast enough to proved Vick any security.

    If Robert Griffin was forced to stay in the pocket and wait on down field routes to open 40+ times he would also look like a fish out of water instead of the innovative talent he resembled in 2012. However that can be said for any number of Quarterbacks who run and throw with the same success rate on their way to being labeled a winning Quarterback.

  • BirdGang

    Benched? Is that how you see it? Because if we had any chance of making the playoff I am sure Vick wouldve still been playing. IMO he wasnt benched. AR wanted to see what the young players had.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    I’ve been optimistic for Vick. After 2 seasons and a 10-15 record with him starting, injuries, fumbles, and interceptions, what exactly should I be optimistic about? Difference between you and me is I’m an Eagles fan first. You’re a Vick fan first. I want what’s best for the organization I’ve seen enough of Vick to know that it’s not him. I’m ready for a new start, whether it’s Foles or Barkley.

  • aub32

    I hold anyone that wants to be the starting QB of the Eagles to the same standard. I would think everyone would. I have never said that Foles did a horrible job. I have stayed true to my position that he did not show me enough last year to be a starting QB in this league. He was drafted as a project, and I have not seen anything that would suggest he has surpassed that status.
    ….
    The facts that Vick and Foles had similar numbers doesn’t mean much to me. They were under different circumstances. Vick was featured in the offense last year, but did not have the O line to creats as he did in 2010 and 2011. He did not help things by making poor decisions at time or playing hero ball. However, I can argue that having him drop back 40+ times a game put him in a bad situation to begin with.

    Foles was not the feature of the offense during his tenure as the starting QB. MM stated clearly in an interview that significant changes were made for Foles. AR has always had success with backup QBs and stats. Foles was no different. He threw a high volume of short passes against bad secondaries and that led to some inflated numbers. However, watching Foles you could clearly see he had a slow delivery, chose his targets in the huddle, was slow going through his reads, and lacked the ability to throw the ball well downfield. This is not to say he didn’t show good things as well. I just don’t think that his defeciencies are as minor as some make them out to be. Nor do I think they will all be corrected in a single summer.

    Foles could prove me wrong, and I have never been one to say he’s a career JAG. I don’t know what he can be, but I know what I saw of him last year. And that player is not nearly as good as Vick even in 2011.

  • Dutch

    There is no difference between veterans and rookie QBs and there has not been a notifiable difference in over 12 years. Just last year, Griffin, Wilson and Luck again proved like Cam Newton did with the Panthers and Big Ben with the Steelers, the proper scheme and support personnel allows rookes to stand out and compete with a high degree of success in the NFL. There are no built in excuses for the failures of rookie quarterbacks and there hasn’t been in the last decade.

    Foles played to his abilities, he demonstrated the very same liabilities he possessed at the University of Arizona. Look at Foles record over the last 3 years, 2 at Arizona and last year with the Eagles. Foles was drafted after racking up a record over his last two years at Arizona of 11-17. There is absolutely nothing different in his play. Foles inability to see the field, make decisions and, his force passes into coverages he has no business trying is often overlooked by the casual fan.

    Those liabilities have zero to do with Foles being a rookie but more to do with his inability to make thorough decisions with the ball to avoid turnovers. He doesn’t have accuracy to help receivers but rather has a history, as clearly demonstrated last year of talented receivers bailing him out routinely at Arizona.

    Foles was put into a favorable position last year with competition. He started against Tampa Bay and Dallas, those are the two worse pass defenses No.31 and No.32 in the 32 team league. Clearly it says something that nationally there’s no coverage mentioning Foles in what’s perceived as an open competition at the Eagles camp. There’s no way knowledgeable football fans can over look the body of work and brilliance of Matt Barkley. It’s not valid to consider what’s going on in South Philly open competition given the local Philly media and Eagles forums consciously omit Barkley from the discussion.

    All that I can agree with concerning this QB discussion in Philly is it makes complete sense to hold Barkley close to the vest and unveil him at Mid season. There’s little doubt outside of Phila that Barkley is the QB of the present and future for the Eagle.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    10 years of starting experience with what to show for it? If anything, I put that as a strike against Vick. He’s been in this league this long yet still makes the same mistakes and has yet to improve his QB game outside of his ability to scramble.

    We’ve seen Vick’s ceiling. It’s downhill from here. A 33 year old QB does not all of a sudden have the light turned on for him, especially one like Vick who A) relies on physical attributes more than anything else and B) Has yet to show he has the football IQ that older QB’s like Peyton and Brady rely on as their arm strengths diminish

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Of the 10 years, he’s played 16 games once. Injury prone.

  • Scott J610

    Reid was playing for his job. He went with Foles over Vick. BTW: Did you watch the games? Foles was just as good as Vick, if not a little better.

  • aub32

    Something new isn’t necessarily what’s best fo the Eagles. Now you are guilty of the same bias you accuse MV7 of having. Where I agree with your premise that it isn’t unrealistic to believe Vick will get injured, I also agree with MV7 that you can’t assume Vick will get hurt. Vick is not the same guy from his Atlanta days. Nor will he be running that system. And let’s face it. Vick took the majority of his punishment under Reid in the pocket doing 7 step drops, and who wouldn’t have gotten injured behind last year’s O line? Foles got injured too. If Vick can run Kelly’s offense like Wilson does the Seahawks, it’s entirely possible for him to stay healthy. It’s as simple as having the coach call more runs for the RB and better O line play. Both of which I am sure we are all expecting to see in 2013

  • Dutch

    Foles starting wouldn’t remotely be a new or novel idea. We seen what Foles has to offer the NFL and nobody is impress other than a few of you who frequent this site. To the vast majority of Eagle fans Foles is a losing proposition. Nobody believes Foles in one off season is a magic pill to improve his game. In no way is Foles under center best for the organization. Foles starting is a complete surrender for the 2013 season and a hard sell to the guys in the Eagles locker room.

  • aub32

    We were obviouly watching two different teams then.

  • BirdGang

    hahaha did you watch the games because to say Foles was better is complete crap. Now, can we agree on they both sucked last year? And I dont want to hear how Foles is a rookie blah blah blah because I remember seeing rookies ballin last year.

  • aub32

    Really?!? A ten year career as a starter is a strike now. Most players, let alone QBs don’t even make it to ten years. And to say Vick isn’t a better passer now than what he was in Atlanta is nothing short of oblivious. If you really think that then you are not paying attention and have had your mind made up about Vick for quite some time. Every QB isn’t Brady or Manning, and if your waiting for that guy to show, then good luck. I prefer to go into each season with the best product we can field, and right now Vick is the best QB we have.

  • Warhound

    10 years experience? -OR- One years experience 10 times?

  • Dutch

    Presently there are less than 4 QBs who have multiple Superbowl showings. Of the 28 other QBs in the League there are a total of less than 7 who have played in the game, and even less who have played in a conference championship to determine who plays in a super bowl. How many QB with 10 years in the league never played in a playoff game? Vick’s not one of them. Vick to his credit was released from prison and with his first opportunity managed to lead a team to their Division Crown.

    Before going to prison he lead a team to the Conference Championship game. Those are significant accomplishments given some players and current QBs have never played in a playoff game.

    I don’t know your assessment is logical so far as Vicks professional accomplishments in the NFL

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    What? A QB that’s known for having a powerful arm and athletic ability can’t really do much in shorts? How does make sense? What bar are you talking about and how is anyones bar different if they’re both running the exact same plays? If anything, playing in shorts shows their ability to grasp the offense, which is going to be the most important factor in running a quick no-huddle offense and making reads/decisions at the line.

    The reports coming out of camp have said that Foles looked better than Vick. No one was saying Foles look better than Foles last year. it was the Foles was making the throws and reads that he was asked to do better than Vick was. And they were running the EXACT SAME PLAYS in camp so the bar is the same for both these guys.

  • BirdGang

    Thank you baby Jesus. You stole the words from my mouth. No one here is saying Vick is Manning, Brady etc but I feel he gives us the best chance to win. I dont know about you…but we waited a long time for this season to get here and for our best QB not to be on the field because he is too old, or because we know his ceiling, or because we may or may not have a future franchise QB is crazy. I want to win now…

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    a 10 year career starter with what the show for it? 1 playoff win? A career record slightly above even? Besides this year, when has Michael Vick ever been actually required to earn his starting spot. The jobs been handed to him for the past 10 years. You bet your ass I’m going to compare Vick to Brady and Manning. He’s a first overall pick that has signed TWO 100 million dollar contracts. Why the hell would I not compare him to guys who made similar money and have had similar expectations placed on them throughout their careers? Because Brady and Manning had success Vick can’t be compared to them? Hmm.. that doesn’t sound fair. And don’t give me that crap about they’re different types of players. They’re were/are all franchise QB’s that had the same expectations placed on them and were similarly paid.

  • Scott J610

    Foles didn’t suck last year.

  • Scott J610

    You Vick fan boys crack me up. You use interceptions and fumbles to put down Foles, but ignore Vick’s?

  • aub32

    Please pay attenton. I was referring to the bar that was set last year during Foles’ actual gameplay. Also, I didn’t say Vick couldn’t look good in shorts. I said he’s not going to look any better than what we would expect of him. The biggest thing to come out on Vick was that he beat McCoy in a foot race. Why was this news? Because many were starting to think Vick lost a step, despite the fact he was probably running the same speed on the practice field as when he raced McCoy. Although until he lined up against someone, everyone just yawned and said “there goes Vick running fast again, nothing to se here” However, when Foles completes a long it’s breaking news because he looked awful doing that last year during the season. Therfore, as I said there’s more to talk about Nick Foles because themes are the same reporters who saw him last year in OTAs, and they can note the difference. As fans, we eat that crap up. Although that doesn’t mean that a Nick Foles that’s better than the guy who came into the league last year is better than Vick. Not to mention, think of the buzz and page views it generates to say Foles looked comparable to Vick. But ask youself why wouldn’t he? They’re in shorts playin against a soft D that can’t even touch the WRs.

    ….

    By the way there were definitely reports that said Foles looked better than Foles last year. They just didn’t draw much attention to it. I saw plenty of lines talking about Foles deep ball that had a small monocre like “well strong for Foles” or “Not as strong as Vick”. Fans glance over those types of things because they are enamored with the new and always thinking that grass will be greener on the other side.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    I’d love you to go back and watch how terrible your Mike Vick looked in his rookie season. He was absolutely terrible. Point being, rookie QBs improve.

    I love how you choose your words when you describe Vick and then Foles. You say Vick was playing “hero ball”. How is hero ball any different than just plain playing stupid? Because Vick feels the need to force balls into double and triple coverage that makes him a hero? But when Foles chooses the underneath, short safer routes that’s a knock against him? Foles was asked to drop back just as many times as Vick was, so that’s not really an argument that can be made.

    Fole chooses his targets in the huddle? Have you ever heard anyone praising Vick for his ability to make his progressions and reads? it’s something that he’s struggled with his entire career. You don’t have go back far to see that, trying to hit DeSean on flys every play even if it wasn’t there. I hate to break this to you, but most rookies come into the NFL their first season and are not asked to make it through all their progressions. 1 or 2 at max. At that’s about all Vick has been able to handle throughout his entire career.

    Slow delivery, low progressions, and lack of deep ball threat are absolutely common for any QB making the switch from college to the NFL. It’s something that a good football coach can game plan around and minimize. From all accounts coming out of camp, Foles looked much improved from last year in all these fields. Enough so that some beat writers have said he looked better than Vick. While that may not be 100% true, the amount of people making this observation makes it at least notable.

    You talk about deficiencies, I expect to have a rookie QB these problems. Vick had 2 touchdown passes his rookie year. He threw 3 picks and fumbled 6 times. Foles has worked on his and has improved on them. When can I expect this from Vick? When can I expect him to learn to read a defense well? Make a hot read? Hold on to the ball correctly? Not force passes? Not hold the ball for 6+ seconds in the pocket? Learn how to slide properly? Not go with the home run ball on every pass? How many years does he get to fix those? Foles gets 6 games and you guys can write him off, but Vick has been making the same mistakes for YEARS and he’s still untouchable.

  • aub32

    I just wish NFLN catered to the smarter football fan, instead of the lowest common denominator. I get they are trying to attract casual viewers, but could they just throw in some actual football breakdowns and concepts by people who know/studied the game. Think how popular a segment in which they broke down the all 22 of the spread option or the advantages of a 4-3/3-4. Instead they are too worried about players wearing headbands and dancing all over the damn place.

  • aub32

    I think that might have to do with his time away. I wouldn’t call him a young or old 33 for both your points. He’s just 33, but he still has greater physical tools than most the QBs in the NFL today.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Greater physical tools that have allowed him to play one full season in the NFL. Vick doesn’t use his “physical tools” to stay healthy, he uses them to get himself hurt.

  • Richard Colton

    I’m an (incredibly) young 35, and I don’t bounce back from injury like I used to.

    Wouldn’t you agree that Mike’s taken more physical punishment over the years than other QBs? Brady is 35, Vick 33, but Brady has been playing since 2000, Vick – 2001. Vick didn’t get drafted at 23 and hold a clipboard for a year like a lot of guys. He’s been taking shots to the ribs by 300 pound NFL lineman since he was 21 years old.

    Your point is well made – a 33 year old Vick might be faster than a 25 year old Shady, but for a guy who has always relied on “greater physical tools” – 33 is a bad number.

  • NickS1

    Certainly not personal here. Bought his jersey the summer he got signed because I was amped to have him in Philly. Most of us are just tired of it. He’s declined the last two years. I think the bulk of the credit for 2011 goes to Shady having a ridiculous campaign and the o-line being healthy and stellar. Vick still had a ton of turnovers, then. It’s not personal. Man did his time, and didn’t complain, and came out and made the changes needed. Nothing but respect for that. We’ll see what the competition brings out in both him and Foles.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    None of this is personal with Vick. I have a Vick jersey, autographed copy of Vick’s autobiography and ESPN cover magazine. Vick even follows me on twitter (I’m not joking). I have the utmost respect for Vick and what he’s done with turning his life around, and this is coming from a pitbull owner. But that doesn’t cloud my judgement when it comes to my Eagles.

  • Richard Colton

    You’re using the “Jail kept him young” argument? I believed that too, until I watched Tyson fight post-prison. The only thing that ages your body faster than jail is being sandwiched between a 300 lb defensive end, and a 250lb linebacker.

    I was the biggest Vick guy around – i was ready to crown him in 2010. 2 bad seasons + 33 years old + injury/turnover history = ready to move on.

  • aub32

    1) The game has changed. You can’t compare what Vick did over a decade ago to what rookies are doing now. Please name 3 players that looked just ok in their rookie seasons that are now stars in the last 3 years. You probably have a hard time. Yet I can easily bring up Gabbert, Ponder, Locker, Yates, etc. all looking relatively unimpressive in their rookie seasons and continuing to do so. That’s to mention all the QBs not drafted in the first round. QBs don’t drastically improve past their assumed ceiling as much as you would like to believe.

    2) I am not choosing my words to favor one person or another. Hero ball is in no way a good thing. Nor did I imly it as such. I’m just not the kind of person that goes arounf calling people stupid. I have met Vick. I don’t think he’s stupid. However, I have said in previous posts that he did not play well and made poor decisions. On the flip side let’s not act like Foles threw check downs because he’s this astute QB who sees everything on the field. Many of those were called screens. There were others where he planned on throwing the check down from the moment they broke the huddle. And let’s face it there were a few throws that he probably knew he didn’t have the ability to make, so he had no other option but to throw the check down.

    3) How are you getting on my case for stating Foles’ flaws in which you agree with. If I were bashing Vick, which I have done on numerous occasion, you’d be ther in support. But when I realistically criticize Foles, you’re up in arms. Why? The question you posed was about a standard in which I hold both QBs. Am I not allowed to mention where Foles falls short?

    4) Just because Foles was ok as a rookie does not mean he is better than Vick. Nor does it mean he has this great upside that you and others are so in awe to see. There are much more QBs that regress in year two and never become a good QB than make it. But you seem to only want to point out how much Vick struggled than be realistic that Foles may end up being a JAG. I am not saying he is but the way you dismiss any citicism of him is further proof that you have your guy.

  • Dutch

    That’s exactly the point. Vick has no business dropping back in a pocket in the NFL 40 times, 30 to 32 time is absolutely his max. Forcing Vick to drop back more than 32 times a game is asking for disaster especially behind a line that has no ability to protect him.

    Foles on the other hand being a pocket quarterback is in an element where he should thrive dropping back 40 plus times a game.

    As a Rookie in Atlanta the coaching staff found out quickly he’s not a drop back QB, once the scheme was changes to be a run dominate offense with a scrambling QB the destiney for the Falcons completely reversed itself. That became instantly a contender with Vick for the Conference Crown.

    Even with a sub-par Offensive Line, and the 2011 Line did not play well until the second half of the 2011 season, Vick’s record when throwing the ball less than 35 times a game is 15-7. It’s never been a strong point for Andy Reid to take suggestions based on evidence. Andy was stubborn and attempted to force upon Vick attributes that took away is instincts and tattering him to the Pocket behind a suspect line. Vick spend the last two years running for his life and waiting on slow developing down field receivers routes to come open. That just not the best strategy for a resources as unique as Mike Vick and takes pressure off of the opposing defense.

    Hell that strategy wasn’t suited well for Nick Foles. Despite changing the routes to give him a better chance in the pocket, the game still proved much to fast for Foles to digest.

  • aub32

    No the desire to see Foles on the field despite what it may do for our chances in 2013 clouds your judgement.

  • aub32

    The 2011 O line was far from stellar

    LT- super stud JP

    LG- Journeyman lineman who considered switching to defense

    C- 6th round rookie

    RG- 1st round draft pick who had only just started playing football

    RT- ?? This spot started as a mystery and was eventually filled by Herremans who has already been moved back to guard
    This is this reality of the 2011, but because the media talks about how well they played at the end of the season, many forget what a work in progress it was most of the year.

  • aub32

    I didn’t say he wasn’t. I said if you can look at the past for his injuries, then you also have to credit his experience.

  • Dutch

    So has Roethlisberger . Big Ben has 8 years in the league and only once has he played all 16 games. Like Vick he’s prone to use his legs and take wicked shots as a consequence and is equally injury prone.

    Foles took a fraction of the hits in 2012 and proved he couldn’t survive as the starter for more than 6 games with those limited hits. 20 Sacks and 8 fumble and Foles was laid out for the year. It takes more toughness than what Foles has to last in this league.

  • aub32

    Foles was more accurate throwing much more checkdowns. The fact is though they may be a tad more accurate, you’re losing the ability to throw the deep ball and out routes.

    There is a chance he’d get injured, but Foles has one season under his belt and one injury. Injuries happen. That’s why there’s backups, but you still put your best player out there until it happens.


    I don’t know about you, but if he proves to be the best option over the next 3 years that’s who I’d want starting.

  • Dutch

    It didn’t take a 16 game season before Foles was knocked out of commission he could not survive 6 games, 20 sacks and 8 fumbles before being knocked into the mash unit. Are you using double standards?

  • aub32

    It’s just a number. Until we see this actual physical decline that everyone keeps talking about, why would I worry about his age. I mean the guy can easily out throw any of our QBs and is faster than our starting RB. Yet people still claim he’s losing it and that his age is a factor. HAHAHA

  • Warhound

    I’m a freak at 51 but recovery ability seems to decay quicker than speed, strength, etc.

  • Andy124

    I completely disagree with your “Standards are higher for rookie QBs now” line of reasoning. A few anomalies do not redefine the norm. Aside from that, the NFL is littered with very good QBs who started off worse than Nick.

    Flacco was far worse in his first 6 starts than Foles.
    Luck was worse in in first 6 starts. Both Mannings. Matthew Stafford. Carson Palmer.

    He was also better than first round picks Tannehill and Weeden.

    Does that make Foles a sure thing? Of course not. But it does mean he COULD be very good. It depends on how much he can improve. Can guys improve by sitting and watching? Sure. But it’s not nearly as much or as quickly as being on the field, playing and learning from your own mistakes.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    1)
    Nick Foles: 79 QBR, +1 TD/INT differencial
    Eli Manning: 55 QBR, -3 TD/INT
    Matt Ryan: 87 QBR, +4 TD/INT
    Joe Flacco: 80 QBR, +2 TD/INT
    Matt Stafford: 61 QBR, -7 TD/INT
    Andy Dalton: 80 QBR, +7 TD/INT
    Mark Sanchez: 63 QBR, – 8 TD/INT
    Josh Freeman: 59 QBR, -8 TD/INT
    Sam Bradford: 76 QBR, +3 TD/INT

    I could keep going but my point has been proven. QB’s usually look OK in their rookie season. Good teams can mask their average to less than average rookie QB play with a good defense. The Eagles could not.Last years QB crop was an anomaly. RG3 and Luck are once in a generation type guys, and Luck was worst than Foles in his first 6 starts anyhow. You will not see 3 rookie QB’s this year make the playoffs.

    2) No where did I say Foles was a genius. He made passes that he was asked to make, passes that were chosen because he was a rookie and check downs are something that should be used for a rookie. You don’t make a rookie throw the same passes as a 10+ year vet does, but even then the Eagles did ask him to do some.

    3) I’m pointing out that the areas that Foles struggled in as a rookie are very similar to what Vick has struggled with throughout his career.

    4) I would argue that outside of a few flashly plays, if you consider what Michael Vick has been paid, where he was picked in the draft, he hasn’t been much more a JAG at QB. 1 playoff win and an win/loss record slightly above .500 is nothing short of average.

  • Richard Colton

    You haven’t seen it? I have. How many times in the last few years have you seen Vick caught from behind by a D end or LB? That never happened his first few years in the league. How many times have defenses not put a spy on Vick because his running is less of a threat?

    His last 3 years in Atlanta as a full time starter – he averaged over 15 starts per season. Last 2 years in Philly – 12.

  • aub32

    First off Brady, Manning, and Brees all played for HOF coaches with much better talent than Vick has ever had him. Second, are you saying that the only starter you will accept has to be in the same elk as Brady, Manning, and Brees? Good luck. It’s sounds to me that you are bitter that Vick has failed to meet your expectations. Tough. Romo just signed for 100 million. Between his rookie contract and his extension Stafford will have made over 80 million in guaranteed money, and he is several games under .500. So what if Vick got paid. What does that with whether or not he is the best QB on this team. Brining up irrelevant points like this further show that you just have an axe to grind.

  • Richard Colton

    I’m actually a lot better looking at 35 than I was at 29, but I hear you.

  • aub32

    That has more to do with scheme than his physical ability. In ATL he had the license to go whenever he saw fit. AR tried to make him a pocket passer even to his detriment. Plus how many times did he get caught only after escaping a tackle or two. Hell, he had to basically self check Bell’s man half the time.

  • Dutch

    That has nothing to do with his physical attributes but is directly related to the scheme Andy Reid devised for Vick. Making him stay in the pocket changes the way a defense has to play Vick and frankly takes pressure off of the defense. If you could not recognize that then you have zero football IQ

    Look at the offensive line he played behind the last few years. The 2011 line on y had 8 solid games before that they were virtual strangers and out of sync with each other.Vick’s been running for his life ever since he’s been in Philly.

  • aub32

    I disagree that he was better than Weedon, Tannehill, Luck, or Flacco. I cannot speak on Stafford as I did not watch him as a rookie, and I’m not so full of myself to speak on what I don’t know.Both Mannings came into the league in a different era and therefore are irrelevant. I get that this stement will prompt people to immediately go to the stat sheet. Don’t bother. Foles played under a coach who was great at getting guys with below average talent to put up great numbers. Those guys never panne out elsewhere. I am not saying that Foles will never pan out. It his numbers were inflated. I watched Foles play as well as the other guys I mentioned. They all did better by my account, and they won games. You can strictly look at the stats as the Cardinals and Dolphins did before you if you like. I prefer the eye test.

  • Dutch

    That post was delusional and grossly overstates Foles impact on the Eagles and his effectiveness as a QB with the Eagles in the NFL or while in College under Snoops at Arizona.

    Name another QB who stared off in their rookie season with a 16% winning percentage and found success over the next year or two, any one drafted during the last 12 years? Who is it that can be found in the litter of the NFL that you described. Flacco won 9 games in his rookie year and two playoff games.

    Foles doesn’t compare to Flacco in reality on in an illusion. Foles was 1-5 as a rookie. Beside Flacco was 3-3 is first 6 games as a rookie in 2008……… Nor was Foles better than Tannehill. Weeden managed to win more games how has Foles shown himself to be as good as either of them…….

    Did you read the article attached to this thread? Kell isn’t in the habit of “throwing away a season” he’s in this to win beginning now… Foles offers him no shot at winning now or tomorrow. When was Foles last the QB of a winning team?

  • eaglepete

    Totally agree with this post, well done, and no doubt MV7, people would be screaming that Foles stinks and Barkley should just start, funny. Although it would never get to the level of the pro/anti Vick sentiment

  • aub32

    I thought you hated talking about Vick

  • Wilbert M.

    Polarization is Philly. Has been and always will be. But, finding a solid QB helps. I’m an old timer going back to John Reaves and Pete Liske and it was joyful to bring in Roman Gabriel. The Jaworski era was OK, Randall OK, and then we had Donnie LowThrow. For most of the Gabriel/Jaws/Randall/McBlow eras there was not much question who was #1. But the #2 QB was always the most popular guy in town. It would be great to have a certified #1 (i.e. Brady, Brees, Stafford, Ryan, etc. etc) to get behind, but we’re a season away from that. I think it will be Nicky.

  • aub32

    LOL no offense but I am not even going to bother reading this one. I just got done telling atb that I wasn’t interested in inflated stats. Sorry you wasted your time. Please see my response to himas I am sure it will equally serve to answer this post.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Whos expectations has Vick met? After all the money we’ve paid him, has what he’s done here really been good enough? 10-15 worth the 13+ million dollar cap hits? Romo nor Stafford have signed 2 100 million dollar contracts.

    You can keep saying this is personal, but there is nothing Vick has done over the past 2 season here to make me believe he’s doing anything but regressing. I’m sorry I’m ready to move on from a 33 year old injury plagued under preforming QB to someone who has shown promise in a rookie season and who has an upside.

  • Andy124

    Classic. The stats don’t support my stance, so I prefer my opinion (eye test).

  • Andy124

    Next time somebody criticizes Foles for his win/loss record or says something like, “those other guys won games” as a rookie, you’re going to be correcting them right?

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Hahaha I love that’s your point. Vick has been the ultimate ME FIRST guy throughout his whole career. He makes throws he has no business trying and throws pick, runs around because he feels the need to make a run when he shouldn’t and fumbles, but when he gets criticized all of a sudden it’s a team sport? Please.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Straw Man:

    attempts to counter a position by attacking a different position – usually one that is easier to counter. The arguer invents a caricature of his opponent’s position – a “straw man” – that is easily refuted, but not the position that his opponent actually holds.

    http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

  • Pennguino

    Forget defense, special teams.

    Vick. You have the ball. Final drive to win the game. If you can get your offense across the goal line game over. You Win! You don’t have to depend on your defense getting a stop or a punt return. Nothing else. Just you and your offense. Can you get it done? NO

    Ball on the 25. Sack, Sack, Incomplete, Punt. Detroit drives the ball and scores and wins. Week 6

    Nick. same scenario. One drive and you win. Can you do it? YES. Tampa Bay

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Haha ok bud. You ask, I deliver facts that don’t match your opinion and you take your ball and go home. Nothing inflated about QB Rating, TD’s and interceptions. Stats are stats.

  • Andy124

    What’s your question? You are defending Vick’s lack of team success by correctly pointing out that he doesn’t play defense. Many people point to Foles’s 1-5 record as evidence that he should not be the starter. You will be pointing out their error when they do so right?

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    So trying not to get hurt was the reason for him getting hurt last year. What about the rest of his career when he was allowed to do whatever he wanted? He was still getting hurt. Just admit it. The way Vick plays football makes him injury prone. It’s not deniable.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    1. Learn to read.
    2. Don’t put words in my mouth.
    3. Vick is 10-15 over the past 2 seasons. Nothing shows that he’s going to win anything.

  • aub32

    Not taking my ball and going anywhere. You cannot tell me the whole story. They don’t You also can’t tell me that Foles had as good a rookie season as QBs that won games and made the playoffs. If it better I will quickly take apart your entire argument.

    I already stated Eli came in a different era. He does not count. He cam in well over 5 years ago

    Ryan, Flacco, and Dalton all had much better rookie seasons and took their respective teams to the playoffs. How can you put Foles, who won one game, in their category.

    Mark Sanchez?? Is that really who you want to group Foles with. If I told you right now Nick Foles would only ever be as good as Sanchez would have a fit.

    That leaves Stafford, Bradford and Freeman, all who have done absolutely nothing. You get on Vick for the money he made. How about the heist Stafford and Bradford pulled off. Been guaranteed over 80 and 50 million respectively and neither of them are me or two shy of .500


    You threw out some numbers, and I forgot my previous post did ask for players. So I apologize for initially dismissing your efforts, but you can’t seriously be grouping Foles in with rookies who took thei teams to the playoffs. It’s absurd and an insult.

  • aub32

    So you mean to tell me that story every time. So am I to assume you think Kolb was a good QB? How about Feeley? Should Stafford be considered up there with Brady and Manning despite going 4-12? He put up the numbers. The argument that stats tell the whole story is silly. As the saying goes there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

  • aub32

    Exactly. It’s not like anything has changed from last year to this one. There’s no reason to believe anything will be different about how this team is run.

  • Dutch

    Foles is 1-5 with the Eagles and 11-17 with Arizona over his last two year there. A combined 12-22 over the last 3 seasons for Foles.

    Where is there a hint Foles is capable of leading the Eagles to a winning record in 2013? How can that be sold to the fan base and the guys in the Eagles locker room?

  • aub32

    I can only tell the truth. I can’t make people accept it.

  • Andy124

    Stats absolutely can be misleading, but mainly in small sample sizes.

    As for your “different era” point. I continue to disagree with it. Yes, football is becoming more pass oriented, but it’s not as extreme as you may think. Especially over the last 10 years. For example, in 2002 the median QB rating was 85.2. Last year it was 85.75. I think comparing ratings between those two years is more than fair.

    And are you seriously going to point to win/loss record as an indicator of a QBs quality? Are you going to tell me that Ponder is better than Brees?

  • G_WallyHunter

    That is very true, I was being a little too sarcastic.. product of a much better system and that is the main reason for his longevity, much more so. I hope CK can figure out a way to protect Vick like that, with the occasional big play, as many have said before on here. Quick decision maker, game manager, and occasional big play threat.. The anticipation for the last two seasons were so damn high for all us fans, this season blows those seasons waaaaay out of the water

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Sure I can. I just did. Flacco, Ryan and Dalton didn’t take their teams to playoffs. They did enough to not be a liability in their rookie seasons. Their teams had great defenses, lines, and running games that helped their team get to the playoffs by limiting their QB’s from being a liability. None of those QB’s were asked to what Foles did, behind that line, passing as much as he did.

    Eli didn’t come up in the 1960′s. It’s absolutely not that much of a different era.

    You may dismiss Sanchez because his play has regressed, but he had an average rookie season, similar to Foles in numbers if not worst, then in his sophmore year went 11-5 and led his team to the AFC championship. But it’s an example of a guy having an OK season then playing better next season.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    “I’m sorry I’m ready to move on from a 33 year old injury plagued under
    preforming QB to someone who has shown promise in a rookie season and
    who has an upside.”

    No need to apologize.

  • aub32

    I don’t mean personal as in you hate the guy. I mean likely a fan of his who expected a lot and got burned. Now you are fed up. Sound about right?

  • aub32

    First off Ponder and Brees don’t even play the same position. Brees in a QB. Ponder is Adrian Peterson’s ball handler (APBH). And lookin at the mean doesn’t do much to tell the story. For every Brady and Manning there will be Sanchez and Gabbert. The rules made the game easier, but it didn’t eliminate bad QBs. My point is there isn’t a rookie that came into the league in the last 5 years that was relatively blah that is now making a splash rming at the level Vick was in 2011. So I don’t get why so many think Foles will be the one.

  • Dutch

    Depending on the scheme Ponder plays. Ponder is just as effective as Brees when playing a a scheme specific to Ponders talents. Ponder qualifies as a playoff QB despite what you may think of him. Ponder compliments the Vikings and what they do on offense just as well as Brees and how essential Brees is to what the Saints do on offense. By no comparison is Foles comparable to Ponder giving the number of wins Ponder has QBed the Vikings to since coming into the game as a rookie. Ponder actually throws and finds connections down field beyond 4 yds.

  • Dutch

    Being a rookie is no excuse. In over 12 year rookies have come into the NFL and were thrown into the heat of the fire and any number of the rookies drafted over that period have handled the situation well enough that a number of them supported with the right scheme and personnel have found success.

    Foles touted as a pocket quarterback was put in an element for success with schemes dedicated to thrown the ball 40+ times a game. The rookies who were thrown into the fire of the NFL and who had not performed well are those who are no longer in a lot of cases on a team in the NFL or buried deep on a team’s roster. Foles is not the first, nor will he be the last rookies who have proven themselves to not be able to play or regulated to back up duty.

    Bottom line you have it or you don’t and putting up decent numbers on the worse passing defence in the league is not a good barometer of future success. Foles showed he’s capable of finding his dump off receiver situated no more than 4 yds off the line. Foles also showed he has no accuracy to hit the intermediate and long route receivers in the pattern.

  • G_WallyHunter

    I agree I want Vick to succeed, 3 can be done if CK can figure out how to protect him and get the ball out of his hands into a playmakers quickly, if that can happen and Kelly can successfully tailor an NFL system (which he’s never done before) around MV and preserve him for 2 years of greatness behind a killer running game? of course its a possibility, I’m optimistic about it, we don’t know what to expect from CK we might as well be optimistic.
    Your number 2 is true none of us can argue the psychic aspect, I am merely basing my opinion on how reliable his injury prediction has been for 9/10 years… from the optimistic standpoint, maybe these new methods CK is bringing in with the focus on sports science and intense rehab techniques (among many others, can’t forget the smoothies) will help preserve Vick, among other players, and decrease his chances of being injured. Couple that with the fact that he has clearly thickened up a little bit, as well as having a huge chip on his shoulder, who knows we all want to see him come out and play 16 games and put up better-than-2010 numbers… optimistically of course
    As far as the D goes… from outside it looks sub-par. But just like with CK, we don’t know what to expect from BD.. optimistically yes Meco and Barwin lead the D and the secondary miraculously comes together with Fletch and Cdub starting and playing well? and they become a good unit, and we know the potential of Cox and the line…. its tough to say. As I said from where we are here in July the D doesn’t look like a top 10 or 15 D tho… TC will reveal much more as we all patiently wait

  • aub32

    Rob you don’t have to answer, but ponder this. Why go with a guy whose upside is no better than what you already have in Vick? Upside doesn’t even mean he will reach the level of competent starter. It just means he was below the level of a starting QB last year but did a few things well

  • Richard Colton

    he might be. If CK doesn’t see anything he likes in Foles in camp, but feels Barkley is too raw, why wouldn’t he start Vick?

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    What do you mean expected a lot? I expected to see high calibre QB play from a guy who was paid accordingly. If I thought Vick was the best option to win next year I would be all for it. After seeing how he has played, how he has gotten worst each year since 2010 I do not believe he is our best option. Vick and Foles numbers weren’t that far off last year, and I expect Foles to improve and Vick to regress more. You obviously don’t share my opinion, and that’s well in your right.

  • aub32

    I didn’t say Foles wouldn’t be better. I said he wouldn’t be better than Vick. I don’t know about you but I wouldnt want Sanchez as my QB. So that’s not really supporting your argument. And the Falcons did not have a good defense. They were one of the worst teams in the league before taking Ryan

  • Dutch

    Define “Ok Season” Flacco was 9-7 as a rookie, Ryan 8-8, and Dalton was 8-8 as rookies Foles doesn’t compare as a rookie to either of these guys. In all cases they lead their teams to 500 or better seasons as a rookie.

    Foles may have threw a lot in Andy’s scheme to built his rating, but most of his receptions as were Dalton’s came within 4yd of the line of scrimmage.

    Best information available suggest that Foles as a rookie in no way compares to the rookie seasons either of the QBs in the post above. Nor has Foles shown the talent and attributes of those QBs, Foles was 1-5, Define Ok Season, are you referring to his 79 rating with a 6.4 YPR average?

    Name another 16% winning percenter as a rookie who has come back the following season to be and lead a competitive attack over the last 12 years in the league?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    aub, I can answer that very simply, though I doubt you’ll agree: everything I have posted to date underlies the basic assumption I hold that the jury is out on Foles. Period. Just as many of you say his stats are inflated, there were “almost-picks”, etc….fine. I concur. The positives all have an *. But so do his negatives.
    To compare him to other rookies, from any era, is absurd. To compare him to other rookie QBs who came in last year, started, and did well is equally absurd. I have absolutely no idea what his upside is. But we’ll never know with him on the sideline.

    “Why go with a guy whose upside is no better than what you already have in Vick? ” -quite simply, I disagree with this statement.
    If Vick blows everyone out of the water in TC, this whole thing is moot; he’ll start, because long-term or not Kelly will play the best man (see article above). But if it’s anywhere near close? I can’t justify it.

  • Richard Colton

    easy answer – if we knew what Foles was. But we don’t. There’s only one QB on the team whose floor/ceiling is known – Vick.

  • Brian

    “It just means he was below the level of a starting QB last year but did a few things well”. You’re referring to Vick, right?

  • Andy124

    I’m not going to re-disprove assertions that have already been disproved. I don’t think there’s anywhere else to go here.

  • http://theadulttoysstore.com/ The Toy Goddess

    ” Ponder is Adrian Peterson’s ball handler (APBH).”

    iDIED.

    Unfortunately for the Vikings they aren’t going any further with Ponder as the QB. They’ve roe AP as as they can – what they need now is a better QB.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    These guys seem to believe you can paint a perfect picture of a rookie QB from 6 games.

  • Dutch

    We know what Foles is, some of you are in denial and refuse to accept you’ve seen the best he is capable of giving you. Foles was as consistent at being bad has he were at Arizona. indecisive, inaccurate and no ability to see the entire field and not telegraph his passes. You’re going to be disappointed if you think the next start out Foles doesn’t show the same critical flaws he showed in 2012.

    Foles will never win as many game as Vick nor amass the modest passing numbers in a winning effort. It’s just not possible.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Been drinking from Dutch’s punch bowl. You forget- he never won a thing at U. Arizona, so of course he’s the next Caleb Hanie.

  • Richard Colton

    I can tell you everything about Nick Foles from 5 games, but nothing about Mike Vick after 120.

  • Richard Colton

    Unicorn meat makes you thirsty, its high in MSG

  • Dutch

    What Foles was at Arizona is consistent with what you saw in 2012 from Foles. That’s all I’ve said and what Foles has proven. Name another QB over the last 12 years who was a sub 500 winner in college started off with a 16% winning percentage in the NFL and rose to the level of being a playoff winner or considered a competent QB in the NFL.

    Foles is only what you saw and he will not mature to be much more and especially a starting QB in the NFL. The Foles discussion is a side show. There is no person associated with the NFL, or Football at serious levels who expects to see Foles as a starting QB in the NFL for no reason other than extreme emergencies.

    2012 saw the best performance Foles has in him at this level, and he accomplished that against the two weakest passing defenses in the league, Tampa Bay and Dallas.

    Chip wants to win, and win now. He was more than enough on Foles in College and with the Eagles last year to know Foles is not the ticket to competitiveness and winning in the NFL. Maybe you should re-read the article attached to this thread.

  • http://theadulttoysstore.com/ The Toy Goddess

    Well…I’d give him 35 or less – he still has a winning record at the 35 mark…anything more and you’re definitely pushing it – and if anyone complains that your QB is only throwing it 30-35 a game – I’d point out that same QB is gonna give you nice yardage on the ground so it evens out.

  • http://theadulttoysstore.com/ The Toy Goddess

    “There’s no way knowledgeable football fans can over look the body of work and brilliance of Matt Barkley. It”

    Yeah…you’re reaching there. Barkley fell to fourth for the reason. A SLEW of QB needy teams whiffed on him. They did so for a reason. Smith AND Manuel went before Barkley.

    Now I will say this…Kelly impresses me as a guy who can maximize the talent he has – even Foles could look decent in a Kelly offense – so Barkley will likely be set u to do well when he does make an appearance..

    But the ONLY way he gets in midseason is if Vick is injured or he truly stinks up the joint – while the former is likely, I don’t think the latter is b/c once again Kelly is great at setting up his QBs to succeed.

  • Brian

    Rob, Excellent post. There is an example of this in every “100+ comment” discussion.

  • Warhound

    Sadly, it’s not limited to pointless NFL posts but happens all the time in arguments over things (public policy) that actually matter.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    with the USDE pushing for a core curriculum, anything that leaves out a “basic logic” class at the middle school or high school level is unsatisfactory.

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    Leadership has always been wracked by stupidity, as well as the old adage “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
    What’s truly a shame is the lack of media awareness, smarts, and cajones to actually call anyone out on this. Regardless of political alignment, I love the work of Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert to shine a light on our ineptitudes. True journalism is hard to find.
    (sigh)…..sorry, Warhound, for the rant. I’m now off to pour a glass of bourbon

  • Brian

    You’re on a roll. Stewart and Colbert are the Tim and Sheil of the “news” world. Vodka here.

  • Warhound

    Walter Cronkite, where are you?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    rolling in his grave

  • Warhound

    “…keep it real…” What the hell does that mean?

  • NickS1

    Read this: http://the700level.com/eagles/how-good-was-the-eagles-offensive-line-in-2011/

    First paragraph summarizes it up pretty well.

  • Dutch

    Nobody wants to remember the carousel that the offensive line was before the second half of the 2011 season. I think it’s forgotten that the Eagles brought in Mudd for the specific purposes of improving the Offensive Line’s performance and that none of Mudd’s fixes took root until the second half of 2011.

  • NickS1

    He also threw the ball away a ton more the Vick since Vick has no idea how to do that. So that’s factored in. If Vick threw the ball away he’d be notably lower.

  • NickS1

    See above about the accuracy…. In Kelly’s eyes Vick isn’t even a clear cut best option. He very well may be come TC. However, to determine if he’s the best option for the next 3 years? You won’t find that out in camp. That’s going to take most of the season to figure out.

  • NickS1

    Not sure if they were, I thought Rhodes was in NY when Davis was there. Could be wrong, don’t feel like looking it up. However, in short, this seriously improves our safety situation immediately and gives us a solid starting safety for the next 3-4 years.

  • NickS1

    I, too, am like a fine wine. Better every year.

  • Dutch

    I don’t agree with the common assessment on QBs. I happen to think QBs like Steve Young, Vick, and the kid out of Texas, Young are commonly case in roles that are vastly different than the roles they played in school that saw each obtain a decent level of success. The Panthers, Redskins and to some degree Seahawks are setting the stage to put these kids in schemes they have mastered at the college level and are finding success. Roethlisberger and Newton win by any means available to them. Both use their arms and the threat of their legs and each has found success in the nfl to parallel their college careers.

    I think the difference with Kelly’s teams has been training and Kelly applying techniques to keep his players in the best physical condition imaginable. Fatigue makes cowards of us all. When facing other top programs and BCS teams, Kelly’s team doesn’t stick out, well outside of Oregon’s conference. Kelly’s teams are alway in excellent shape and he’s to be applauded for sithe physical conditioning and preparation of his teams.

  • Dutch

    You don’t think the obvious difference between Vick’s play the last two years, and 2010 had much to do with scheme?

    The same scheme was perfect for Foles. 40 plus passes most all short. What other element would you want to see a straight drop back QB with bryce brown setting eagles rookie rushing records?

    Luck, Robert Griffin, Roethisberger, Wilson and Newton has shown the world exactly how important scheme to a qb is in their drive in finding success in the nfl. Why would anyone hold Vick to a different standard?

  • Richard Colton

    “Foles will never win as many game as Vick nor amass the modest passing numbers in a winning effort. It’s just not possible.”

    It’s just not possible…to read that and not laugh.

  • Richard Colton

    it’s unbelievable that you (and only you) think you have the magic formula that determines NFL QB success.

    Matt Cassell didn’t start a game in college – and the Pats and Chiefs made him an NFL starter. Tom Brady didn’t start in until Jr. year and did nothing as a college QB. It’s the most notoriously fickle position in all of sports to judge success. Except for you – all you need is a 2 column spreadsheet to know if a guy will fail.

  • Dutch

    This isn’t true, Vick has never thrown more than 14 interceptions in a single season. Vick’s problem is fumbles due to playing on instincts. He is not now or was he ever a drop back QB.

    With the Eagles more of Vick’s throws which are intercepted are balls that bounce off the hands of Eagles receivers.

    Quarterback usually run when their receivers can get separation out of their breaks on their routes and if a Quarterback doesn’t trust his receivers to make the routine catches. We all know the Eagles receivers with the exception of DJax can not get separation and we’ve all seen Eagles receivers show unreliability in making easy catches. Those aren’t new issues with the Eagles receiving corps.

  • Dutch

    In 2011 and 2012 how many leads did the Eagles defense lose in the 4th Quarter? That was a theme for the Eagles starting with the 2011 loss at the Linc to the 49ers. It was those losses that kept the Eagles at 8-8 and out of the playoffs.

    How many QBs have you known over the last 12 year who started 1-5 and went on to become or show themselves to become anything in the NFL? How many QBs in the NFL have losing records in college and have become consistent contenders in the NFL?

  • Dutch

    This is a lie…….. you could not have believed the “Jail Kept him young” argument being Tyson’s post prison fights you’re claiming convinced you, had taken place years prior to Vick signing with the Eagles and relieving Kevin Kolb. Jail seemed to have kept Bernard Hopkins young. He’s now 48 years old and is the oldest champion ever to win a title to this day.

  • Dutch

    it matters little what Foles shows in Camp, if Kelly is sincere about winning now he fully well understands as does that locker room that Foles gives him zero chance at winning in the NFC East. Foles is not at the least unfamiliar to Chip Kelly, nor is Matt Barkley.

    Every player on the Eagles offense and across the league know it was the Eagles defense that was the achilles which doomed the Eagles over the last two years and those David Akers missed Field Goals of 29, and 41 yds that allowed Green Bay to win that playoff game in 2010.

  • Dutch

    That’s the instinct fueled by his heart and desire to win that puts him in position to be hit more than most other Quarterback besides Ben Roethisberger who equally hasn’t completed but one season in his 8 due to using his legs and being subject to hits.

  • Dutch

    Who was the last Eagles Quarterback not hurt and forced to miss games behind the Eagles offensive Line? There’s not been one in more than 8 years. That’s how Vick got elevated twice, to the starting position. Had Foles not gotten injured last season everyone was resigned to seeing Foles tank the rest of the season for a solid draft position. Like wise had Kolb not gotten concussed against the Packers in 2010, Vick would have never been in a position to take the Eagles to the Division Crown.

  • Dutch

    Football 101, if you want the ball out quicker, shorten the routes the receivers run. Run 7 and 10 yd routes instead of 15 plus with a 5 and 7 step drop. The Eagles line doesn’t block well enough to hold their man for 15 yd routes.

    You can clearly see from the stands receivers still have their backs to Vick when he is forced from the pocket. On television is looks like he’s just holding onto the ball

  • Dutch

    It’s not psychic if you actually understand the game of football and know what you’re watching as it unfolds before your eyes. How many secs does it take Maclin and Jax to run 20 yds routes down field through a defense and come open?

  • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

    I feel bad, and slightly honored, that you’re spending your friday evening replying to a dozen of my posts with such nuggets of wisdom like “open your eyes and watch”. I must say though…def. not interested. I prefer germans or swedes

  • Dutch

    You would not be alone. People around the league are laughing at the idea a small portion of Eagles Fans think Foles is a legitimate option at Quarterback, especially divisional foes. Giant, Cowboy and Redskin fans are hoping Vick is hit by a bus on the way to training camp and Foles is the chosen starter for 2013. If that were the case than we are assured of another top 10 draft position.

  • Dutch

    Matt Cassell is garbage. You have no idea what Brady was at Michigan……. Brady was an outstanding QB at Michigan among some of the better five star studs on their roster. Brady played behind Brian Griese his first two years. Griese lead Michigan the year prior to Brady becoming the starter to a share of the national championship and an undefeated season. Drew Henson was one of the most highly recruited QBs in the history of Michigan Football, Brady beat him out to become the starter in 98 and 99. In 98 he shared the starting position and half way through the season Brady became the starter and stayed over the final two years he was at Michigan. Brady went 20-5 over that term as starter.

    Foles college career was the exact opposition, Foles was 11-17 his final two years. There is no comparison in their college careers as there will be no comparison between the two in their respective professional careers. Quarterbacks just don’t come from a 16% winning percentage and a sub 500 college win percentage to amount to a competitive QB in the NFL. The speed of the game and defenses were to complex for Foles at Arizona and like wise he showed he could not adjust and handle the speed of the professional game in 2012 as a fill in with Philly.

    You’re either lying or really have no knowledge of Football to say Brady did nothing in college.

  • Dutch

    Tampa Bay has a defense that a solid High School offense can score on, like wise the Eagles defense over the last two year could not protect 4th Quarter leads which was the achilles that doomed the Eagles since the 49ers game at the Linc in oct 2011.

    Foles faced the two weakest pass defenses in the NFL in facing off against Dallas and Tampa, and Tampa had a 40 year old Safety protecting the goal line. Come on now…….. that’s not a good barometer or test to determine if a young QB will be any good in this league.

  • Dutch

    Foles accuracy was helped by 4yd passes on his check down throws. You can’t expect to win with 4 yd receptions and 2 yds after the catch in the NFL. It could be different with a 4 yd catch with perfect placement so that the receiver can run after the catch, but that’s not the case with Foles. He throws behind the receiver a sign the game is to fast for him.

    Foles doesn’t have the accuracy to place a ball out in front of the receiver in the intermediate and long pass. He showed that time after time last year.

  • Dutch

    Who was the last Eagles QB not to suffer an injury behind the Eagles Offensive Line? The best offense the Eagles have had in 8 years consisted of 3 playmakers and a tackle. So long as Kelly throws the ball no more than 32 times a game Vick and the Eagles will do great.

    With Brown and McCoy there is really no reason the Eagles should be throwing the ball waiting on deep routes to develop subjecting Vick to monster hits in the pocket. The offensive line should be miles better than it’s ever been.

  • Wilbert M.

    Too much media BS with Rhodes. You might as well trade for Tebow.

  • NickS1

    Haha it was only matter time before you chimed in with nonsense. He broke his hand. Sure. Since there’s no established track record of injuries, say, like, Vick’s concussion history or broken rib history, it’s not using double standards because it’s not even on the same playing field.

  • NickS1

    Weird, those are passes that Vick doesn’t utilize because he’s a below average decision maker and either goes for the home run or the scramble/hero ball…. Just about every rookie has to adapt to the speed of the game. That’s the beauty of upside. He can adjust. Vick’s Vick.

  • MAC

    ick average pass play last year 6.73 yards per completion. Foles was 6.43 yards per. Not really a big difference huh? So that ends that part of the Vick vs Foles accuracy debate. Both QB’s results per completion were almost the exact same.

    You should google the stats before throwing out those points. Yea I know those stats were done by people who have never played the game or some other condescending excuse for an invalid point you made. In your mind your assessment of football IQ , you believe your football IQ is close to an NFL GM’s and most other people are the equivalent of a 4th grader. You are a legend in your own mind.

  • Pennguino

    Tampa was still in the playoff hunt. They were fighting for their playoff lives. Nick directed a 14 play drive to win the game. He converted 2 4th downs and a 3rd and 14 to keep the game going. Nick earned 98% of the yards and 100% of the scoring in that game. Here is his game review http://boards.philadelphiaeagles.com/topic/670845-a-shout-out-to-foles/ No Desean. No Celek. No Shady. The only starters from the beginning of the year was Mathis and Maclin.

    The High School remark has no bearing. They weren’t the worse defense in the league. They were 32nd in Passing D. They were 28th in TD’s. They were 23rd in scoring D. They were first in Rushing D. Foles’ had no ground game whatsoever. He won the game. Plain and simple. He almost did it again but Evan Moore dropped the TD pass that hit him in the chest in the second Skins game.

    The worse defense was New Orleans. 31st in points. 31st in passing yards. 31st in passing TD’s (Philly was 32nd). 32nd in rush defense. How bad did the Eagles kill them?

  • Brian

    Did Ike actually say he expected Foles to win the job? They’re tight.

  • cliff henny

    only thing he could be talking about is rhodes might be gay-and picks i’ve seen, doesnt seem to be much of a ‘might’ about it. he could come out of closet as an eagle. personally, gay part doesnt bother me, but having espn sniff around lockerroom with 2nd rate hacks after he does, would.

  • cliff henny

    visit his twitter account, or bleedinggreennation posted some. yeah, if he’s not, the guy he’s taking pictures with is gay enough for the both of them.

  • cliff henny

    need to get 4 or 5 of them to come-out at same time. spread the bs media attention. have simply grown to hate espn. they might be too much of a monster w/ MNF and baseball contract for anyone to topple. think the nfl network would be above hiring hacks, but just too much money in the casual fan veiwer. us hard core fans dont matter, they know no matter what POS they put on screne, they’ll suck us in

  • nicksaenz1

    Can’t wait for season 2 to start up tonight!

  • MAC

    Actually look at the stats. Vick average pass per completion 6.73 yards. Foles 6.41. Not to much difference in the results. So it’s not like Foles who you call Mr Check down was averaging a few yards less a completion. They were practically same results per pass. So the #’s don’t really play out the way your saying.

  • MAC

    Vick average pass play last year 6.73 yards per completion. Foles was 6.43 yards per. Not really a big difference huh? So that ends that part of the Vick vs Foles accuracy debate. Both QB’s results per completion were almost the exact same.

  • G_WallyHunter

    yup