Three Things We Learned About the Eagles’ Offense

With spring practices over and done with, here are three things we think we learned about the Eagles’ offense in the past couple months.

1. We’ll be seeing plenty of 2-TE sets in 2013.

This one seemed pretty obvious from the personnel moves the team made this offseason. The Eagles targeted James Casey (All-22 here) in free agency and spent a second-round pick on Zach Ertz. Plus, they already have Brent Celek on the roster.

The reason for stockpiling tight ends now makes more sense. Chip Kelly wants to play fast, keep the defense on its heels and create mismatches. But remember, if the offense substitutes players, the defense has to be given a chance to do the same.

“The same personnel has to stay on the field as long as we keep our personnel on the field, and defenses aren’t used to playing that many plays in a row,” center Jason Kelce explained. “If we sub out, then they can change personnel. That’s part of the reason why we have so many tight ends. You can do so many different things formation-wise with them.”

Kelly has tried to boil it down to a simple concept. If the opponent brings a defensive back in, run the ball, and take advantage of the blocking matchup with the bigger tight end.

If the opponent sticks with a linebacker, pass the ball, and take advantage of the receiving matchup with the more athletic tight end.

“As a tight end, you have to be able to do everything,” Celek said. “You’ve got to be able to block. You’ve got to be able to catch. In this offense, you can line up pretty much anywhere so you’ve got to be able to do a lot of things. That’s why tight ends can be good in this offense because we can do a lot of things.”

2. The offensive line could be a strength.

It’s only June, but the Eagles got plenty of encouraging signs with this unit.

Under Andy Reid and Howard Mudd the past two seasons, the Eagles sought out athletic offensive linemen. They signed and developed Evan Mathis. And it looks like they may have gotten a steal by drafting Jason Kelce in the sixth round of the 2011 draft.

Kelce, Jason Peters and Todd Herremans are returning from season-ending injuries, but all three looked good in the spring. Kelce was dealing with a serious injury (torn ACL) for the first time in his life, but rehabbed hard all offseason and was a surprise participant in team drills last week. It didn’t help last year’s cause, but the fact that Kelce suffered the injury in the second game of the season and will have had almost a full year to recover when the Eagles take the field against the Redskins should be a positive going forward.

Peters, meanwhile, received nothing but glowing reviews from teammates and coaches. I kept listening for someone to say he wasn’t quite at 100 percent yet or that he still needed some time to get back to his old self. But instead, the critiques were pretty much all along the the lines of: You’d never even know he was coming off an injury.

Peters turned 31 in January and is coming off an injury in which he injured and then re-injured his Achilles’. Perhaps expecting him to return to his 2011 form when he was quite possibly the best offensive lineman in football is unfair. But the truth is, Peters at 85 percent is probably a Pro Bowler. He sounded motivated, looked to be moving well and believes he can get back to being a major difference-maker.

Remember, Peters said he could have come back at the end of last season, but the team decided against that since the playoffs were not a possibility. Come September, he will have had a full 16 months to rehab from the second Achilles’ injury.

Lane Johnson still has to prove himself, Herremans is moving back to guard, and Mathis suffered an ankle injury earlier this offseason. So of course there are still question marks. But based on what I saw and heard over the last couple of months, there is reason to be optimistic about this unit.

3. The QB competition is real, and a decision is not coming any time soon.

I’ll admit that when the Eagles brought Michael Vick back on a one-year deal and added Dennis Dixon and GJ Kinne to the roster, I thought Kelly was looking for a specific type of quarterback, one with a certain degree of mobility.

And looking long-term, that very well might still be the case.

But in 2013, the quarterback competition Kelly has set up is legitimate, and the starting job will go to whichever guy performs the best in late July and August. I truly believe that.

Vick turns 33 later this month. He has trouble staying healthy, has thrown 24 interceptions in his last 23 starts and has fumbled 32 times in his last 35 games.

Nick Foles, meanwhile, threw five interceptions in seven games and fumbled eight times. His 6.4 yard per pass attempt ranked 29th in the league, ahead of only Mark Sanchez, Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder.

In other words, of course Kelly isn’t sold on a starter. Neither player has done nearly enough to be awarded the job in June.

Kelly was content having Vick and Foles split reps all spring and that will continue into training camp. The guess here is that each guy will start at least one preseason game. Kelly has made it clear that he wants to see who can run his offense efficiently when the red jerseys come off and they’re faced with the threat of being crushed by opposing defenders. There’s a chance that he’ll use all four preseason games before making his decision.

I get the sense that Kelly doesn’t really care if players want a starter named sooner rather than later. By all accounts, he’s been up front and preached competition to all 90 guys on the roster.

This team finished 4-12 last year and had a point differential of -164, third-worst in the NFL. It’s perfectly reasonable to make players earn their jobs. And quarterback is no exception.

Follow Sheil Kapadia on Twitter and e-mail him at skapadia@phillymag.com.
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  • Rick H

    Excellent article Sheil!!!

  • GEagle

    great article…however Yes in theory this is a real QB competition…but it will materialize with Foles Wiping the floor with He who I chose not to speak of! Lol

    • cliff henny

      you arent the slight bit curious to see an outside zone read, d-end collapse on shady, and vick take off around the edge with a 100% healthy (god willing) peters just road graving the way? then, quarter later, same play except vick pulls up flicks his wrist and ball is 40 yards downfield to a wide open d-jax? i know you arent, but, i am

      • Brian

        Sadly, “d-jax” was tackled at the five yard line. On the ensuing play, Vick drops back to send the fade in Momah’s direction, but a linebacker comes in unblocked! Vick makes a run for it! As he’s reaching for the goal line the ball is batted out of his hand because he forgot what Chip “taught” him about holding a football. Boooooo

        • cliff henny

          who’s tackling d-jax in open field…maybe in 20 yrs…he’s alot of things, but one of them isnt is a guy who gets caught from behind.

          • Brian

            It took Vick 8 seconds to release the ball. The DB’s were waiting for d-jax. Lol

          • Dutch

            That’s not true. Cincinnati game, Desean was caught from behind on a middle screen about 4 yds off the line of scrimmage and the ball stripped.

          • cliff henny

            meant in open field when he has step or 2 on guys, getting tracked down from behind. the dude can fly.

          • Dutch

            That’s not fair, he’s not being caught in space. If DJax was to catch a ball twice in the same game in space somebody is headed to the unemployment line the next day.

          • cliff henny

            i know, it’s bit buried up, but my initial point was ‘to a wide open d-jx 40 yrds downfield’..and his reply was ‘got tackled at the 5′. running backwards dj doesnt get caught from behind.

          • Brian

            I would love to see him touch the ball 8 to 10 times a game.

          • cliff henny

            he’s still 5-10 165, 10′s alot. 6-8 with you there. his amount of touches were fine. what he needs to catch them in better spots. on the move. to many catches were comebacks where he had to gather and turn or outs and he only got couple more upfield. really hated how reid pigeon holed him. excited to see what d-jax and shady can become under kelly.

          • Brian

            Agreed.

          • MAC

            You remember DJax getting tackled at the 1 yard line in the Arizona game setting up the sack fumble return of 99 yards? All cause Desean couldn’t get past the last defender. Desean can’t be caught from behind you are right, but he is not great aftyer the catch at all. For what he is suppose to earn next year ($10million) & his antics 2 years ago he is really going to have to wow for him to be kept. I just do not like the fact he can only run a few routes bc he is not ok to go across the middle. For all the negative stuff and attention he brings he is nowhere near worth that kind of $.

          • Stephen Stempo

            If he doesn’t get hurt he’s a 1000 yard receiver

          • cliff henny

            was just tossing a fun fantasy play out there, not trying to put myself in position to defend d-jax, even though i like him. he has many faults. really think reid used him poorly. jax has unlimited speed. is he going to catch a slant and bounce off 3 guys on his way to endzone, of course not. but coming across middle getting to other side and catching more short out where he can turn up and run. and i mean just run, get to sidelines and go…the dude can fly…he’ll get yards. catch some unders, fake an under, than up over, goodbye! he has a lot to prove this year. regardless of numbers, he wont get 10 next yr (it’s 6m this yr) he’ll be negotiated.

          • Brian

            I hope we see what we’ve been waiting for.

          • cliff henny

            think it’s jax against maclin. one will be resigned-other walks. jax has inside edge cause think he’s better and also dead money does matter. will be interesting. the guy who could throw big monkey wrench into works is Benn. not a big shorts guy, but GD, havent seen a guy look like him since TOin ’05

          • Dutch

            Benn reminds nobody of TO, not even close. Ben is a prospect in Philly because of his blocking, as a receiver in the route he’s been a utter disappointment down in Tampa Bay. I agree with the . Maclin and Jackson statement. Both are duplicates of each other and neither is a strong possession receiver. Between the two, you could never tell that Maclin is the No.1 receiver now. When TO was suiting up you knew he was the No.1 receiver he caught the ball anywhere on the field and made plays.

          • cliff henny

            looks…guy is physically stacked. what i meant is he could be perfect for kelly, not only be speed rec’r, physical blocker, plus with his larger body be possession rec’r. he could be tough to get off the field. or,could be nothing, as he was in TB, per could. as i said, think it’s jax vs maclin, and if benn is versatile enough that kelly wants him on the field alot, that takes one of them off. we know he’ll have at least 1 rb 2 TEs most of the time.
            yeah, well aware benn isnt TO stat wise, that’s not tough to see

      • morgan c

        Personally, I’m more worried about the inability to make a hot read, scrambling and taking 6 seconds to get rid of the ball, and turning it over than I am excited about what you outline above. The other thing that I think people have to realize / remind themselves of is that it doesn’t appear that Chip Kelly’s offense for this team will be a gimmicky read / option or zone-read type offense (RGIII, Seattle, SF) as much as it will be a Patriots style get rid of the ball quick, up to the line, no huddle, and run plays constantly. For that system, a running quarterback isn’t as necessary as an accurate and smart one (Brady, Ryan). I’m not saying Foles is either of those guys, but as a pure quarterback, I have more faith in him at this point than Vick.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Please don’t use Ryan as an example – as “smart” as he’s only taken the Falcons as far as Vick did with WAY more talent.

          Ryan is a good regular season QB.

          • JofreyRice

            Matt Ryan is not the athlete Mike Vick is, but he’s worlds ahead as a passer. You don’t think he played very well in the playoffs, particularly the NFCCG?

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            I think he’s just getting in his prime right now. Terrible timing on his interceptions, but he was nothing short of dominate that game.

          • JofreyRice

            And he took a hell of a beating. Very good QB.

          • Dutch

            Matt Ryan is the product of Tony Gonzalez, and Roddy White and the Falcons solid run game has contributed just a bit too……. Let’s not get carried away here. Taking nothing away from Ryan, but up to a couple years ago he was a excellent game manager in the likes of Alex Smith under Harbaugh. Ryan as he should, rides the coattails of White, Jones and Gonzalez.

          • JofreyRice

            Strongly disagree, but acknowledge the talent he plays with. For me, the bottom line is, he makes the proper reads and gets the ball to this receivers. As far as the running game, Michael Turner was toast, and Jacquizz Rodgers is not an every down back. If Ryan couldn’t make accurate throws to the right receivers, it really wouldn’t matter how good they were. I think he’s getting underrated because of a good front office that doesn’t force him to try and do it alone.

          • cliff henny

            matt ryan is a really good qb. foles becomes MR2, sign me up, search is over, let’s move onto other areas

          • Dutch

            What you call putting the ball on the money I call putting the ball up and he has the receivers capable of going up anywhere on the field to take the ball out of the air, with defenders latching onto them. Tony Gonzalez has provided that security to a number of Quarterback throughout his career. White and Jones, in my opinion for the amount of talent they possess they aren’t posting numbers anywhere near what I think they are capable of in this league. I don’t think that Ryan without the options he has at every point in his progress would be posting the numbers he does.

            Ryan should be throwing for well over 4300 yard a season and approaching near 45 to 50 touchdowns. Smith is just recently loosening the reigns on Ryan, so he may blossom to what I think he should be as far as production goes.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            “What you call putting the ball on the money I call putting the ball up and he has the receivers capable of going up anywhere on the field to take the ball out of the air, with defenders latching onto them.”

            Flacco all day as well. You see those hail mary deep passes he throws and was just blessed to have his receivers come down with him?

            Ravens are going to seriously regret that contract. And soon.

          • Dutch

            I think so as well, but Flacco comes out of Delaware. The Coach at Delaware is pretty good at developing QBs there and Flacco has a cannon of an Arm and on the money. Flacco another game manager should be coming onto his own basically because he doesn’t have a choice this year. He has the mechanics to get the job done, now he should have the confidence. Flacco has come along nicely simply because the game was not to big for him when they threw him into the fire and he played with legitimate superstars and did not have to become the face and voice of the franchise.

            If I were the Eagles looking for a QB, I would be keeping an eye on what’s down at the University of Delaware and invite some of their graduates to camp from time to time.Flacco and Gannon both came by way of the University of Delaware and neither were on the Eagles radar before either was drafted and that deserves a flogging for someone in the scouting department.

          • JofreyRice

            This argument is utterly ridiculous. They won a superbowl because Flacco was just throwing hail mary’s up to his receivers? Have you seen how his postseason stacks up, historically? 11 TDs to 0 INTS. That’s luck? Come on now.

            If the last 25 seconds against Seattle helped Ryan actually earn the nickname “Matty Ice”, then the entire 2012 postseason should earn Flacco “20 Below Joe”.

            Ozzie Newsome rarely makes a misstep with the future of his franchise. I think the departure of Cam Cameron and his mid-90′s offensive philosophies bode pretty well for Flacco, as he plays that new contract out.

            I’m curious, who are your top 10 QBs?

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            You missed the point of everything I said. Flacco is classic game manager – he can’t throw a non-hail mary deep pass to save his life – his receivers bailed him out of PLENTY of throws that could have EASILY been interceptions.

            I watched Boldin and Jacoby make the most IMPOSSIBLE catches and Ray Rice as a running back. And let’s not forget the Ravens D.

            Game managers are great when a team is stacked, not so great when a team is not. We’ll see what he looks like this year with a pretty gutted Ravens squad, his go to receivers gone and a remodeled defense.

            I don’t have a top 10 QBs list. Scheme and the overall quality of the team matters more than who the QB is. QBs get more credit (and take way more blame) than they deserve. There are 2 QBs playing now that can carry a team: Brady and Manning – that’s it.

            Everyone else needs some help – Brees couldn’t get it done with a crappy defense – Rodgers barely got it done with a crap oline and top 3 defense. Bears couldn’t get it done (get to the playoffs not have a winning season) with top 3 defense an average QB.

            Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. And that’s how I few it.

          • JofreyRice

            “Ryan should be throwing for well over 4300 yard a season and approaching near 45 to 50 touchdowns. Smith is just recently loosening the reigns on Ryan, so he may blossom to what I think he should be as far as production goes.”

            This is almost the perfect Dutch post. Ryan actually threw for 4700 yards this season, so you obviously didn’t check whether or not he had actually met your ridiculous criteria before writing that sentence. To suggest that it’s some kind of negative against Ryan because he’s not approaching the single season record for TDs regularly is ridiculous, even for you. And for the cherry on top, you undermine your entire point by insinuating that Matt Ryan has been held back by his coach. Bravo! This really is top notch stuff.

            What the hell are you expecting from Roddy White and Julio Jones? White went for almost 1400 yards and Jones went for 1200. How much more do you expect, realistically?

            What’s funny is the qualities that make Ryan a good QB–leadership, focus, intelligence, accuracy, anticipation, and ability to hang in the pocket and deliver under pressure are the best case scenario for the development of a guy you claim to support, in Matt Barkley. The Eagles will have struck gold if Barkley can develop to Ryan’s level.

          • MAC

            For all the Vick took his team to the NFC Championship talk, do most people realize those 2 playoff wins that year are the only 2 playoff wins in his entire career?
            Ryan in last 2 years has thrown for 8893 yards with 61 TD’s and 26 INT’s. Also Ryan has 127 career passing TD’s in 5 seasons at the age of 28. Vick has 123 career passing TD’s total! Is that really comparable?
            Also Ryan is still coming into his own and in most NFL minds a legit franchise QB. Vick is 33 yrs old and no one can argue past the prime of his career. Let’s all be honest here the Falcons are better off with Ryan than Vick. The numbers don’t lie.

          • Dutch

            Ryan has a first ballot Hall of Famer on the end of most of those touchdowns and receptions. Who is on the other end of Vick’s passes?

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            The defense.

          • aub32

            I disagree, but that is funny.

          • Richard Colton

            now you’re just taking advantage of the guy. ever see the SNL skit where Charles Barkley plays one-on-one with middle school kids?

          • No Stop

            The first statement doesn’t make sense and speaks to the inaccuracies people spew about Vick. He didn’t win two plaoff games that season he one only 1. The falcons won their division that year and had a bye before beating the Rams. Mikes first playoff win was in 2002, and it was the first time the packers were ever defeated in the playoff game at Lambeau field

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            A lot of people called Peyton a regular season QB as well before 2006.

          • Phils Goodman

            And then he threw 3 TDs vs 7 INTs on less than 7 yards per attempt in four games during the 2006 post-season.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            Yeah, looks ugly out of context for sure but lets not make it seem like he was a liability out there. 3 picks in the wild card game but he was 30 for 38. Ravens game was plain ugly. 32 points in the second half of the AFC Championship, which was the biggest come back in NFL championship game history. 80 yard TD drive at the end was a thing of beauty.

          • Phils Goodman

            Peyton was legitimately great and gutty in that AFCCG, but he lucked out and got great support in a number of stinkers that post-season. It’s “ironic” that he got his ring during such a mediocre post-season run, or sort of a payback for all those times when he was individually great but didn’t get the support or luck he needed in the playoffs. There’s a lot of BS in the narrative about Peyton’s post-season performances.

          • JofreyRice

            how about the 2009 postseason? Now, one of his two INTs was pretty memorable, but he also balanced that against 6 TD’s and ~67% completion rate.

            He might have some choke in him, but it’s not at Romo level. That Saints team was really a juggernaut.

          • cliff henny

            that offense was awesome. 7 slow or 7 fast…bress and sean peyton didnt care…but was going to be td drive more often than not. defense just to unreal risk. so what, give up td, brees will get it back. might be glampse into eagles future

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            You won’t get any arguments for me. If you look at some of the plays in playoff runs over the past few years, Lady Luck has lent her services to a few championship teams. What Peyton did for that franchise cannot be understated, and to go from him to Andrew Luck is just ridiculous. If only we could be that lucky. I hate playing what if, but you have to wonder if Vick didn’t get that long term deal we’d be in play for some of these franchise QB’s we’ve seen go in the past 2 years.

          • Dutch

            that defines Peyton’s career thus far. You could change the names in that statement and fill in Farveand you would also be accurate. Had McNabb has just one of the receivers Farve and Peyton had, you could have probably used his name as a fill.

          • Dutch

            He pretty much is regulated to the regular season, He’s been very disappointing over the course of his career in the money portion of the seasons.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            That’s just not correct. The fact that Peyton won a Super Bowl justified the money that was spent on him. Peyton kept the Colts relevant for over a decade. He brought his team to the playoffs 12 times. His NFL and franchise record list is as long as your arm. He’s without a doubt a first ballot Hall of Famer. His iron man streak cannot be understated, to have your starting franchise QB healthy for an entire decade is almost unheard of. The Colts got extremely lucky (pun intended) that they’re not going to miss a beat with Andrew Luck.

            Financially, Peyton kept RCA Dome and Lucas Oil Stadium full regularly. He was a god in Indy. Any owner in the NFL would give their arm and leg to have a guy like Peyton.

          • Dutch

            Sir, so did Jim Kelly and McNabb. The point of the matter is for all the statistics Peyton put forward, he’s only one ring to show for that and a string of losses in Big Games. It was the Colts defense that shut down the Bears in the second hand that secured that super bowl.

            He’s going to be remembered for the Super Bowl, but more so than Jonny Units in the Colts 1970 championship team. Peyton has that stigma attached to him for the string of steady loses in Big Games.

            There are some cold realities in Football and unfortunately Peyton’s is losing in the big games.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            Peyton Manning is a Super Bowl champ. Jimmy Kelly is not. Donovan McNabb is not. One ring is all that matters Dutch. This isn’t even debatable. I would give up ANY player the Eagles have had since 1998 for 12 season of Peyton Manning rewriting the record books and winning the Super Bowl. First ballot HOFer, one of the greatest to play the position. That ring trumps any big game difficulties he had. It is THE biggest game, and he won it.

          • Dutch

            Sorry, I didn’t put the label on Peyton. Peyton is played to fall apart in the post season. Peyton doesn’t strike a lot of fear in coaches in the playoffs. Peyton has a reputation for turning the ball over and not coming through in the big games.

            Cause you can’t accept those realities doesn’t make it true, his documented history lays the facts before you on that matter. Worse thing to happen for Peyton is Eli winning two Super Bowls and being named MVP of one.

            In Peyton’s game, what’s remembered is Tony Dungey’s defense shutting down the Bears in the second half to secure the Colts win in a rain storm. Peyton was granted the MVP but that was politics, Safety Bob Sanders should have won MVP

          • JofreyRice

            *relegated

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            LOl.

            Peyton IS a regular season QB.

            “called” suggests past tense.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            He’s a Super Bowl champ. To me thats when a regular season QB becomes no longer a regular season QB. What other accomplishment does he have to make?

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Peyton should have a few rings by now. He kinda lucked up on his one and had he not we’d be talking about him in the same way we talk about Dan Marino and Juim Kelly – great QBs and no rings.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            He’s a great QB WITH a ring. He won it, and it wasn’t luck. He carried them in the AFC Championship to get them to the Super Bowl and did enough for his team to win it. SB Champ QB means he’s NOT in the regular season QB category of Marino and Kelly. I’m not even sure how this is debatable.

          • morgan c

            First of all, Ryan was an example of the type of offense (no huddle, quick tempo, shotgun ala the Patriots). Secondly, I’d take a “good regular season QB” at this point.

          • MAC

            You realize that Vick also had R.White and made no use of him. Also for all the Vick took his team to the NFC Championship talk, do most people realize those 2 playoff wins that year are the only 2 playoff wins in his entire career?
            Matt Ryan I promise will win another playoff game at some point soon. That Falcons team has been better off with Ryan than Vick. Ryan in last 2 years has thrown for 8893 yards with 61 TD’s and 26 INT’s. Also Ryan has 127 career passing TD’s in 5 seasons at the age of 28. Vick has 123 career passing TD’s. Is that really comparable?
            Also Ryan is still coming into his own and in most NFL minds a legit franchise QB. Vick is 33 yrs old and no one can argue past the prime of his career. Let’s all be honest here the Falcons are better off with Ryan than Vick. The numbers don’t lie.

          • Dutch

            White was a rookie in 2005, Vick’s last year with the Falcons was 2006. White wast not a starter with the Falcons until 2007, in 2005 and 2006 he didn’t start but a combined 12 games his first two years.

            If I recall, this is the first year Matt Ryan won a playoff game. So he’s only won 2 games in his career, is that correct? Also Matt Ryan in his 5 years, has been throwing to Tony Gonzalez a first ballot hall of fame Tight End who over those 4 years have 27 of those TDS, and approx 300 receptions and about 3600 of those yards. Who is Vick throwing to in Philly that’s comparable? Who in Philly is a 1000 yard receiver for Vick or any other Quarterback who played the position in Philly? Ryan is playing with Gonzalez and two premiere 1000 yd receivers

            You can’t be serious……….

          • JofreyRice

            Did Vick ever throw for 1000 yards to one his receivers before he got to Philly? White started 8 games in his rookie season. His reception totals went from 29 and 30 in 2005 & 2006 (with Vick) to 83 & 1200 yards with Joey Harrington and Chris Redman in 2007.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Vick is good in a hurry up offense.

          And his hold the ball too long stats are directly related to how much he runs. In 2011 (when we had a line good against the run not so much the pass) he was sacked the 5th fewest of all QBs – can’t be holding onto the ball that long if that’s the case.

          • theycallmerob

            Im not sold on those stats. Whwre is the evidence he is good in hurry up? And he may have been getting rid of the ball quickly, but it was going to guys in different colored jerseys

          • Dutch

            That’s a complete exaggeration regarding interceptions, not once since he’s put on Eagles green has he lead the division in interceptions, and as a professional he’s never lead any other division in interceptions.

            That’s a perception which is unfounded. And you can’t google any information that backs up your claim.

            in 2011 he was sacked 38 times, that was due to Shady being a threat, which he was. Teams couldn’t afford to pin their ears back and not play the run on the way to Vick.

          • theycallmerob

            Leading your division in INTs is not the barometer for whether or not he had too many. Which he did.

          • Dutch

            When has Vick lead the NFL, or the NFC in interceptions in his career? He’s never been near the top in any season.

            Where and in what year? Can you provide something to back up your statement he had “too many” relative to his peers in any season over the last 12 years?

          • theycallmerob

            Read my original comment; where is the proof he has, or will, succeed or improve in a hurry up?

          • Dutch

            Maybe I wasn’t clear in my initial post to you on the matter of Vick and interceptions.

            “It’s an exaggeration of the highest proportions to claim that Vick has ever been near the top in interceptions in his career”

            those perceptions suggesting otherwise can not be factually proven and are drawn up in the campaign to pretty much slander Mike Vick.

            Vick interceptions is a “Fallacy” commonly broadcast and promoted on Philly Talk Radio and shared in articles in the local Phila sports media writings.

          • cliff henny

            dutch, i dont think it’s a difficult point to except, vick turns the ball over way too much. maybe ‘ints’ is a universal word, doesnt matter, it’s an issue with vick. to many turnovers. and foles turned it over too much too. neither is exempt from this criticism.

          • Dutch

            I’m not and never was referring to fumbles and neither was the guy I was exchanging with, he stated Vick throws “too many” interceptions which is a flat out lie relative to his peers in the NFL.

            Quite naturally if Vick is subject to more hits he’s subject to more fumbles. That’s not rocket science. If you don’t want your QB to fumble you remedy that with protecting him. That’s not something the eagles do well. Had you seen the statistics on Watkins and Herreman’s for 2011 and 2012 when it comes to QB harassment?

          • cliff henny

            vick subjects himself to more hits. he turns it over too much. not sure how that can be a point of contension? it’s an issue. been that way since date he stepped foot on nfl field, hasnt changed.

          • theycallmerob

            BS. Running backs take more hits, dont fumble as much. Indefensible

          • theycallmerob

            Hitler being a decent man is an exaggeration of high proportions.
            Here are some of those facts you ignore, along with my question you can’t seem to answer:

            http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/2/11/3974912/breaking-down-michael-vicks-turnovers-draft

          • Richard Colton

            more ints than games played over the last two years and almost as many fumbles. Vick may be a better 2013 option than Foles, but he can’t be the kind of QB Kelly wants at the helm.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            When you look at M. Vick’s career interceptions he’s not a guy that ranks high on the lists. Historically his interceptions are relatively low – what he does do is fumble a lot.

            The numbers more than back that up.

          • Dutch

            He fumbles a lot because he take more hits in and out of the pocket than any one of his peers playing under center.

            The arguments are bogus to begin with because they are taking them out of context and not attributing this problems to being put in situations and offensive schemes that don’t fit his skill set.

            What some of the distractors on Vick want isn’t available in Vick or Foles, and Foles proved he’s not capable in his consecutive appearances in 2012 given the chance to facilitate a sustained passing attack with the Eagles. He’s no better in a scheme planning on throwing the ball 50 times a game or reading defenses and making quick decisions and Foles lack of mobility only serves in him subcuming to a frighting NFL rush. .

            We all seen the same things.

          • theycallmerob

            Semantics…fine, replace int in my comments with TO. Still indefensible.
            And still no proof he is better at hurry yp

          • Dutch

            24 interceptions over the last two years is excessive to who? Compared to his peers in the NFL he’s not rated in the top half of Quarterbacks who played at least 24 games in that period and any claim of him throwing more than the typical Quarterback is grossly exaggerated and completely unfounded.

            Brees, P Rivers, Ryan, E Manning, T Romo and C Palmer each threw more. Brady threw 20, and Big Ben 28………..

            http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

          • Richard Colton

            I’m here to help. The NFL is a league. The NFC is a conference, The NFC East is a division. Rob said “division” – which in this case is four teams. Your counter argument, that Vick can’t be criticized unless he turns the ball over more than 15 or 31 other teams is setting the bar a little low.

            But that’s me. I’m from Philly and I like winners.

          • aub32

            You keep using that I like winners line. Maybe I’m mistaken, but there seems to be only one QB with a winning record in the NFL on this team. Yet the guy you choose to support has both a losing record in the NFL and college.

          • Richard Colton

            Dennis Dixon? He’s been on the practice squad most of his career, or did you mean Johnny Football?

          • Dutch

            No, you’re not help.

            I broke the sub-categories down in every way to say Vick has never lead his Division, or Conference and came nowhere close to being the leading quarterback or in the top portion of Quarterbacks in the NFL to throw interceptions at not time since coming into the league. I thought that was perfectly clear.

            And I never referred to turnovers as you are trying to input into the discussion as a category, I specifically related my argument to and around ” Interceptions” in every post.

            In no season has Vick ever thrown more than 14 interceptions or lead or came close to leading his division, conference or the NFL in that category. The suggestions and statements contrary broadcast on Talk Radio and printed in articles originated in Philly is unproven exaggeration or otherwise blanketly false.

          • theycallmerob

            What perception? The one you made up? Where did I say he led the division?

        • GEagle

          Nice post Morgan…we see things the same way

        • cliff henny

          i see all that too. vick is vick, i dont believe you can expect changes, heard the same bs as you. my hopes are kelly’s scheme can round off some of the rough edges. every qb benefits from a run game, but think vick benefits more than the average qb. gives him time and space, which he needs. it’s just too tantalizing for me to not at least test the waters for 6-8 games.

          • Dutch

            Kelly’s scheme isn’t going to round off edges, but rather play into Vick’s strengths as Harbaugh and Pete Carroll’s schemes played to the strength of their QBs last year. Washington and Carolina were not fool enough to not ride the strength of their QBs running and passing abilities.

            Even Andy Reid has seen the light with Alex Smith in Kansas City…. .Reid hired the coach who worked with June Jones at Hawaii to implement the pistol concepts in his offense. Had he done that here with Vick …… on never mind.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Eh..Carolina still ain’t using Cam properly – I don’t think Riveria is the guy – with the right coach Carolina could have Patriots like success over the next decade assuming they fill there other needs soon.

          • Dutch

            Riveria comes from the old way of thinking. Riveria has not yet committed the Panther offense to the option and uses it sparingly. He can’t afford that thinking because the Panthers only have one receiver, Steve Smith. Riveria has the weapons but is not using those running backs properly.

            He has skill position players capable of producing in a spread attack, a few problems on the line but until he makes a commitment he’s going to be stuck in the middle of the pack. He doesn’t have much longer before they replace him. Riveria is focusing on building the Panthers defense, he’s one of the Bears old linebackers and his stubborn like Andy Reid who he worked for before taking a head coaching job.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            I don’t think they have to use the option to have success with Cam (though their WR situation is problematic so I get that) – I remember reading elsewhere that Cam’s performance improved when they backed off the option in the latter half of the year HOWEVER I will concede your point that he isn’t committed to one thing or another offensively.

            Cam is talented enough to do whatever it is you request of him – but they do need to commit to what their offense is going to look like and stick with it.

            Riveria is on a short leash. Either they get to at least 8-8 (I’m being kind) this year or he’s out – but I secretly suspect folk are expecting a playoff berth or at least a winning season (9-7) for him to keep his job.

          • dutch

            I think he’s pretty much history after this year and the reason is being indecisive. He still put a lot of capital in the draft on his defense instead of trying to get another legitimate receiver. He’s makings similar moves that Andy Reid did in Philly when Riveria was here coaching. Imagine had he went after Jennings in free agency, and the Panthers split outs were Smith and Jennings for Cam.

            The Teams in the NFC South are working to combat the Falcon Receivers instead of building their offenses to compete. For a number of the coaches in the division that’s the rope to hang themselves. Tampa went strong to remake their defensive backfield, but where they’re different is they draft well and went after serious receivers in free agency for Freeman, but they are suspect in pass protection.

        • Dutch

          Who’s the receiver most liable to catch a hot route in the meat of the defense say 3 yds off the line in front of the linebackers and safeties?

          The Eagles don’t have a receiver capable of paying those kind of tolls, may be D Johnson could develop to earn a living in that area but you’re not getting that kind of play out of the Eagles receivers and tight ends, at least in prior years you couldn’t.

          That used to be where Westbrook made is name in the NFL, and a good name he created for himself exploiting an area where no other Eagles then or since could exploit.

          There are only a handful of guys in the league that earns their money catching in front of linebackers and safeties over the middle, and none of them play in Philly.

          • cliff henny

            hopefully kelly addressed this with both ertz and benn. made a good point about the deep middle vs 2 deep. wasnt very high on celek after last year, thought he might be draft day trade and we’d take 2 TEs. also, everyone in the stadium knew, no mater how well the run game was that day, reid would never stick to it. just had to wait him out.

          • Dutch

            My hope and belief is that Ertz settles this problem. He’s been pretty consistent in working the meat of a defense and hasn’t a problem catching with defenders draped over him, however, the NFL and the NFC East isn’t the Pac 12, but he has exception concentration and is accustomed to playing in performing well in big games on a big stage, with I believe is half the battle.

          • GEagle

            If chip can get his hands on Colt Lyeria in the 2014 draft to pair with Ertz,match how fast Celek is gone lol. dude is a ManBEAST who is going to have a monster year for Oregon. They also have a stud CB who will be a first round stud

      • GEagle

        it’s not ally what I’m rooting for, it’s what I think will happen…ZR is just a tool, like a draw or a counter. I will never care about the ability to run a certain play. it’s the most mentally challenging position in sports. I’m curious to see a QB grasp and run the intricacies of this offense, take the defined throws our coach provides, take care of the ball, get the ball in the hands of all these weapons and not try to be superman. That’s what excites me….How could I be excited to see fragile, beat up, 33year old, who can’t slide take off and run the ball?
        ..
        people think I’m so high on Foles as this future hall of famer, which is not the case at all. I have NO CLUE what Foles will become, but the Unknown is certainly better then flat out NOT GOOD! I LOL at people that get on me for “projecting” what Foles can become, yet those same people are still trying to “project” what a guy who has started a decade could be lol…
        ..
        Can anyone see Bill Bellicick ever dealing with Vicks erratic play, who makes the same exact mistakes every single year and refuses to improve?
        ..
        I wonder how Bill Parcells would view Vick?
        ..
        Vick has fooled me TOO MANY TIMES! I have literally never seen a player who at the age of 33, people are still projecting what he can become. F THAT! After you start in the NFL for 6 seasons, you are who you are…and what is Vick? A QB who has played 7 good games in the past 5 years who’s past 2 seasons compare more to a Ponder, Gabbert then a franchise QB. Excuse, after excuse, after excuse…yet NOTHING has ever changed except for a handful of good performances. IM DONE! In the infamous words of the Who..”WE WON’T BE FOOLED AGAIN..NO, NO” lol. I will take the Unknown over Vicks reality any day. maybe if he was 28yrs old, I could see giving him another chance…but this is year 1 of a new era and this dude won’t even want to be he unless he is the starter…That’s all I need to know. if you wouldn’t be willing to cheer your teammates on from the bench, then I don’t want you leading this locker room

        Just my bias point of view..

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          If Vick had either Parcells or Bellichick as his coach just starting out we’d be having a diff convo about Vick.

          • GEagle

            Blah blah blah…heard all the excuses before. we aren’t talking about STARTING OFF. We are talking about 33yr old Vick…so please tell me what those two Legendary coaches would think of Vick at this point in his career? Give me your best honest guess

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            The same thing Chip thinks – let’s what we can do with this, coaching and oline were the big problems last year.

          • GEagle

            Vick was the cheapest option, comparable to the best slop that was on the QB market. When you are coming to a team that doesn’t have a sure fire top 10 franchise QB, I would be pissed if Chip didn’t try to collect as much talent at the position as possible. it was the prudent thing to do, and after seeing the HOLES Andy would have us going into the seasons with, I can appreciate a coach, trying to make sure we have as much at every position as possible. Foles didn’t accomplish anything. how could Chip just assume he could be his starting QB watching him from afar?
            ..
            Vick is a 33yr old with a decade of starting experience which resulted into a ton of bad habits. unless Vick can prove to be head and shoulders better then a young kid, why in the world wouldn’t we go with the young kid? lack of experience is a problem, but the good part about that is you grow drastically the first 3 seasons when you start getting experience. no matter how good or bad Nick Foles is right now, You can count on him to be better in 2014…and you just can’t make that claim with certainty about Vick…so unless he is that much more game ready then Foles, which I doubt he will be….what’s the point? Did you hear what Chip said after drafting Barkley..”Qbs are like tea bags, you never know what you really have until you put them in hot water”? mike Vick, at the age of 33, In my humble(maybe not lol) oppinion, is not worth us procrastinating on dunking our young kids into hot water. Especially when you are coming off a 4-12 season, and your dense will need ATleast a year to Gel. by the time the rest of the surrounding pieces will truly be ready to compete for a SB, Vick will be 36 yrs old lol…so what’s the point?
            ..
            find out what you have, so you can be best equipped to make a very important decision for your franchise in the next draft(whether you want to commit to a first round qb)..
            ..
            the only reason anyone would want Vick is for a ZR..but what good is that if a fragile, banged up dude who won’t slide is running ZR’s? love how he claims to have learned to hold the ball, yet since then, ATleast 3 times it has been reported that chip screaming at him for how he was holding it during a play

          • morgan c

            I mean, they were problems. But if you are blaming them solely for Vick’s terrible season (wait, just making sure we can all at least objectively admit he was BAD last year, right??), then that’s just something I can’t understand. Coaching doesn’t force him to fumble every game. Oline doesn’t have anything to do with his patent inability to read a defense properly. Quarterback play has been a big problem with this team for the last two years. What I don’t understand is that Vick has had not one but TWO miserable seasons. Like I just can’t understand for the life of me how anyone expects him to be good? I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything; I just seriously want an explanation, based on something tangible. “Chip Kelly offense and Vick running” is not a tangible explanation. 33. Get’s hurt. Caught from behind by Kroy Biermann. Fumbles. ??

          • aub32

            I am not excsing Vick for the fumbles by any means, however some oweness should be placed on coaching. Ball security has been a problem for many players on this team over the past 2-3 years. Look at how Shady and BB carry the ball. The same could be said of the receivers in 2011. If a coach does not stress it, then it’s easy to fall back into bad habits with no fear of any consequences.
            With a decent O line Vick had performed well in 2011. Increased run plays will cut down on INT chances and slow down the rush giving Vick the few extra moments he requires at times.
            Also all this caught from behind stuff is being taken out of context. Many times it was either a result of Vick having already escaped one defender or sitting in the pocket waiting for a route to develop and taking off much too late.
            Again I am not saying Vick played well last season. However, his good games were far better than any Foles had played, and his good games in 2011 can’t even be mentioned to even the best of Foles’ play. Vick has his faults, but if the coach is willing to help him out a bit and the rest of the team is healthy. His ceiling for 2013 appears to be much higher than Foles at this point.

          • Dutch

            If it was just the play of a particular Quarterback that would have been distinguished and proven convincingly with the QB Change in Phila last year.

            When Vick was replaced due to his concussion the same results followed Nick Foles under center. Foles was no better finding receivers , avoiding interceptions and fumbles. Foles constantly was throwing behind receivers and over them to defenders. Foles also held on to the ball to long waiting on down field receivers to come open and was no better at ball security once hit.

            The mauling and dismal play from the Eagles Quarterbacks, both quarterback was the only constant in Andy Reid’s offensive scheme that began with forcing Vick to stay in the pocket. Foles had no choice.

          • theycallmerob

            …but he didn’t. To me, at this point and with his age….just not worth it.

          • aub32

            What does his age matter if he has a grasp of the system? He still has much better physical tools than any other QB on the team, and that will likely remain true 5 years after he retires. I get the injury argument, but didn’t Foles getting hurt last season prove that bigger and younger doesn’t exactly guarantee you will remain healthy. Vick took the same beating as Foles (worse if you ask me) and lasted more games.

          • theycallmerob

            except with vick, there are 10 years of evidence he can’t stay healthy, or have 2 good years in a row.

          • cliff henny

            well, he sucked last year, so we only need one good year in a row

          • GEagle

            What’s even funnier, is they had to lower the barometer of a “good” year to not completely embarrass Vick lol. The stat is, Vick has never had two seasons in a row with a QBR over 80 hahaha Not for nothing, but 80 isn’t exactly setting the bar for good QB play very high..lol

          • Richard Colton

            “What does his age matter if he has a grasp of the system?”

            A lot aub. Some things are matters of debate, but the erosion of skills over time isn’t one. Say Vick defies the odds and gets better at 33. Can we count on him to play at that level in ’14 and ’15? If you think the birds can compete this year, then maybe. I don’t see them going from 4-12 to the superbowl.

            You see, this profession is filled to the brim with unrealistic mother#$#%. Mother#$%s who thought their a$$ would age like wine. If you mean it turns to vinegar, it does. If you mean it gets better with age, it don’t.

          • Dutch

            What’s the average age of Super Bowl Quarterbacks? Over the last 47 years the youngest winner of a super bowl was 23, the oldest was 38 and more than 20 quarterbacks have won super bowls at 30 plus years of age.

            Where is the data you studied that validates your theory that age matters?

          • Richard Colton

            see below.

          • aub32

            If Vick were to play really well and make a playoff run, I would absolutely want him back next year when he would only have a better grasp of the system and all the 1st team reps. Skills do erode with age. There’s no debate to be had there. However, Vick’s physical abilities are so great that I believe even 3 years from now he will still be one of the 5 fastest QBs in the league and have an arm stronger than either Barkley or Foles. Not to mention, it’s not like your golden boy Nick Foles is going anywhere. If Vick falls off the metaphorical cliff, Foles will still be on the team to step in, and he will be more ready than he is now having had time to work on the system and his deficiencies in practice.

            To sum the argument up I wouldn’t care if Vick was 40, if he was the best QB on the team at 40 I would start him. That goes for any player.

          • Richard Colton

            Vick would need RGIII like superhuman abilities to maintain those physical skills into his late 30s, let alone 40s. Not saying it can’t be done, only that no one has ever done it. Elway, Young, and Randall were good into their mid 30s – Elway late, but none of those guys were running at that point.

            Maybe Vick will become a different kind of Q…nope…couldn’t get it out without laughing. Anyway – I’m not rooting for Foles either, just want a fresh start.

          • aub32

            What’s the point of a fresh start if it means putting a worse product on the field. Starting Kinne would be a fresh start, that doesn’t make it right just so you don’t have to see Vick. I get you’re frustrated but can you honestly tell me if we made it to a win and in situation with Vick in week 17, would you be rooting against him knowing winning could possibly bring him back in 2014

          • Richard Colton

            are you kidding? I’d love that aub. I just see Vick as the stale movie that I know the ending to.

            He plays really well, than regresses, does something dumb, gets hurt, million excuses, then we’re having the same conversation next year – except the only changes are A) Vick’s age and B) Dutch saying “every non-Hack journalist knows you need two years to be successful in Chip Kelly’s system.”

            If you think we’re making a playoff run next year, then maybe. Otherwise, Im ready to turn the page.

          • aub32

            I believe outside of QB, we may have the most talented collection of offensive players in this division, collection being the key word. Our offensive line woes may finally be behind us, which will help whomever is under center. I just don’t know how well our D can hold up, but I can just as easily say that about the defenses of the other 3 teams in our division. Therefore I think going with our best QB in 2013 gives us a chance this year. I have seen Vick do it. I have seen Vick dominate this division (5-1) two years in a row when he had decent protection and a run game. Hell, against Washington and NY in 2010 he needed neither and still did it. I don’t know if he’s capable of those types of performances. To be honest I don’t even want him to try unless it is a playoff game. I just think in the right system, he can 2 or 3 plays that no one else on this roster can make that could be the difference from 6-10 and 10-6. We have the easiest schedule in the league, and a QB that is 3-2 NYG, 3-1 WAS, and 4-0 DAL in games that he’s started and finished. That success coupled with playing the Raiders, Chargers, Vikings, Bucs, Lions, Bears, though not a given, is a winnable season.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            If Chip Kelly can get 10 win’s he’s coach of the year. With all the changes to me that’s a highly unrealistic goal for this season and setting ourselves up for disappointment. 6-8 wins would be a massive improvement and a step in righting the ship for Chip, and is a more realistic goal… no matter who the QB is.

          • aub32

            I agree. I am pointing out that we have a favorable schedule and a QB in the fold that has owned the other teams in this division for the most part.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            - Bears have Vick’s number – so that will be a loss.

            - Everyone else? More than beatable.

          • aub32

            yeah they do. I’m hoping that changes with them focusing on offense.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            I’m not 100% sure that’s how I would run my football team, but to each his own. I think at some point you always need to look at the costs and benefits of playing an older quarterback and decide when letting a younger guy like Barkley get his feet wet, even if it might mean less wins but he’s getting valuable NFL snaps and putting together good film to work on.

          • aub32

            Rodgers sat for 3 years. It didn’t hurt him. If the Eagles see Foles, Barkley, or the 1st round pick of 2014 as the QB of the future, that’s fine. Let them develop while giving the team the best possible chance to win now. If this team was void of talent, I may see your point. But Vick won the division with less and came very close a second time despite the defense handing games away.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            That’s a bit of a different situation. Brett Favre was a legit franchise QB that was still bringing his team to the playoffs, he went 15-2 the season before he retired. Packers could afford to develop Rodgers while Favre was still winning games. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for Barkley to win (or lose) just as many games as Vick could.

          • aub32

            You believe that now because you are stuck with the performance you most recently saw from Vick. However, the same would not be true in 2014 if Vick has a playoff run. If he does make the playoffs then the team can keep him on board knowing they will be competitive while still having two young guys to develop.

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            Yeah you do have to grade Vick’s skill erosion on a curve – contrary to what many claim there doesn’t seem to be much skills erosion with Vick at the moment.

            He’s still ridiculously fast (not 22 fast when compared to himself) and RG3 is likely the only QB faster than him (maybe not now) and his passes are still crisp – unlike Romo who’s deep balls are looking more and more like floaters these days.

            Factor in he was out of the game 2 years – he’s def still got time left to get it done. With that said I think it’s best to move on from Vick after this year. Let a new guy in and build the team around him.

          • aub32

            I’m only building a team around a guy who can beat out the incumbent starter. If Vick shows he still has it this year, I am all for keeping him another 2-3 years. The young guys can sit and develop. I don’t believe in sacrificing the present for a future that may never come to pass. There is no reason to believe that Foles or anyone else will develop into a future SB winning QB. Hell, McNabb didn’t even do it as good as he was. So I would not push aside a better player in favor of giving the young guy a shot. If Vick does indeed make a playoff run and allowed to walk. What happens if we miss the playoffs the following year? What message does that send to the other guys that want to win now? not 3 years from now.

          • Dutch

            Age has nothing to do with the position, this is just nonsense used to bluster any argument against Vick. None of those bringing up age can give you any data on the average of a super bowl quarterback in the super bowl era.

            Ben was the youngest at 23, before he turned 27 he had won two, Brady was 24 when he won his first at 27 Brady has won his third.

            The same way they mix and match schemes when comparing Vick to some other QBs. Vick is not and has never been a drop back Quarterback so he’s not expected to measure up well with drop back Quarterbacks. It’s nonsense to try to compare him with those who are less mobile and no threat to a defense who doesn’t alter their schemes defensively to contain him.

            In Kelly’s offense he has 3 to 4 plays from different formations, not much will change other than personnel groupings, with Pat Shurmur he has a NFL mind that can devise passing routes and combinations common to NFL Offenses.

            Simplicity is Kelly’s hallmark. On one play the tight end runs a 6 route, on the next play in a reversed formation the wide receiver runs the same 6 route, the point being one of Kelly’s players is in the same or similar location. Kelly’s offense doesn’t change, the defense scheme changes. Kelly preference is to take advantage of the mismatches from the defensive play calls.

            He’s been saying this since coming to Phila. He’s already said 3/4 of his offense has been installed over the spring practices. The Eagles have only had less than 18 practices.

          • Richard Colton

            Since 1991, 3 QBs Mike Vick’s age or older have won a superbowl. Two of them are named John Elway. The other was the immortal Brad Johnson. That doesn’t mean a 33-34-35 year old can’t lead a team to a Lombardi Trophy, just means the odds aren’t in his favor.

            A QB, if he’s lucky, can still play at a high level at that age. Your argument insists that he’ll get better. Give me an example of when that’s ever happened.

          • Dutch

            I don’t think he’s ever going to progress as a pocket passer, I do believe if put in a scheme matched to his skill set he’s put in a far superior position to exceed.

            Scheme means everything. He’s not a pocket quarterback and has never been. To compare or try and make him something he’s not after exposure of 12 years in the league is asinine.

            The Same coach, Andy Reid who tried to tatter Vick to the pocket is now with Alex Smith implementing a pistol offense in Kansas City. It took Reid to move away from Phila to reach his senses.

            I can guaranteed Chip Kelly has taken note of Reid’s intentions in Kansas City with implementing a spread attack offense.

          • Richard Colton

            I want to believe that’s true. Just like I believed it in 2010, 2011, 2012…

          • Dutch

            in 2011 and 2012 he wasn’t put in a scheme that caters to his skill set, he was not used properly in Phila under Andy Reid.

            Reid was a stubborn coach, it took the nuclear blast of being relieved in Philly for something to kick in his head as it has in Kansas City.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if Reid wins another Coach of the Year award in Kansas City for the drastic change he’s taking in setting up his offensive scheme there.

          • JofreyRice

            Those guys hate fumblers. Belichek gave the ball the BenJarvus Green Ellis over Stevan Ridley, a much more talented runner, because BJGE was a lot more reliable.

            Vick has come a long way, in terms of maturity as a person, but the blame for his lack of development as a QB should lie nowhere other than himself.

          • MAC

            Maybe but i doubt it. Vick has admitted that when he came into the league he didn’t study film or work on understanding defenses because he said he relied on his god given talent and natural ability. Those are his words. You need to want to learn for a great coach to help you. Say all you want about if had those coaches, but Brady and any QB Parcells has had has been willing to put in the work. Vick does now for sure, but as a young QB he admitted he didn’t feel he needed to put in the work.

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        I’m right there with you. Oh the tantalizing possibilities. Can’t wait to see how it all plays out.

        • cliff henny

          how can anyone root against the possibility of kelly reproducing 2010 washington redskins game. we’ve seen it. it’s in him. i’ve vested 3 yrs in vick, i’ll give him half a season more.

          • GEagle

            7 good games in 5 years. Just SAYIN Bruddah

          • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

            - I’ll take 2011 stomping of Dallas.

            Oh and most Giant’s games. lol

        • theycallmerob

          They also don’t sign 34 yr olds.

      • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

        It’s the same thing we’ve been curious about for the past 3 off-seasons. But instead we see sacks, interceptions, and turnovers. I honestly think that Vick having a good 2010 was one of the worst things that happened to the Eagles in awhile. Vick caught the league off guard and dominated, but it didn’t take long for them to figure him out. Send an extra blitzer and watch him try and run for his life. Heck, don’t even try to hide it. It’s better if he sees it coming, he panics.

        If Michael Vick was 23, unmolded and not set in his ways, and we had just hired Chip Kelly I would be beyond excited. It would be a match made in heaven. I’m not getting my hopes up for Vick anymore, it’s pointless.

        To quote the great George W. Bush “fool me once, shame on – shame on you. Fool me – you can’t get fooled again.”

        • GEagle

          dude…that was one f the best statements I have ever seen made!!! “Vicks performance in 2010 was the worst thing to ever happen to the Eagles”….Props man, Kudos for Canadians lol jk

        • cliff henny

          lucky me, i’m all over the map. that scenerio would be fun to see, but even if vick goes 11-5 (tremendous if) i’m still qb shopping next spring in the draft. when i say i’m pulling for vick, it’s 51/49, by no means is it a landslide. and the second kelly names foles, i’ll be 100% on foles bandwagon. and that 51/49 is getting tighter and tighter, especially after reports that foles has improved arm strength and quicker release time. right now, it’s the perfect picture of what vick could be vs foles off of last year. i’ve seen the best of vick, that part is easy. trust me, foles kills it 1st preseason game, i’ll bandwagon jump- no shame here. have no horse in race, just want the best guy.

          • Dutch

            The scenario could be duplicated rather easily. In 2010 first and primary when facing Vick in the pocket the assignment was containment, any attempt to pin your defenders ears back and rush the pocket could have severe consequences. Defenses were hesitant and couldn’t afford all out blitzes without maintaining containment.

            Then Andy in 2011 though to force Vick to go through progressions before taking off. Reid with that strategy did the work for the defense and no longer was that instance of hesitation necessary from pass rushers.

            The Eagles didn’t have intermediate and short game threats, Brian Westbrook was no longer around. Double deep Desean and play good zone underneath and the Eagles could be shut down. Celek and Avant had respectable reception numbers but none that could hurt a defense. The better plays the Eagles could run were screens, and with Watkins not knowing up from down chances were that 4 out of 10 times they would be disasters.

        • Dutch

          The clear difference between 2010 and, 2011 and 2012 was offensive scheme. It was fool hearted

          to restrict Vick to the pocket and coming up with a game plan that saw Vick hurling the ball from a compromised pocket 50 times. That was a scheme that played directly into the hands and wishes of the defenses facing the Eagles.

          Anyone with half a brain would have explored using a option to take complete advantage of Vicks unique skill set everyone except the brain trust in Philly. The fallacy that is pretty popular of running Quarterbacks can’t win overlooks the 49ers and Young. But this year’s unveiling of the option on the NFL stage has shaken decades long narrow thinking about the option.

          Amazingly, Andy Reid is employing the Pistol in Kansas City. I guess he took something of value from Philly after all. Alex, Reid’s QB showed better numbers running the option than being a basic drop back QB in the NFL after several years of trying.

          Bottom line it was an idiotic concept to tatter Vick to the pocket and expect him to be precise following progressions with no procession receivers in his stable. Even of you detest Vick and his play, Foles showed the same difficulties, flaws and was as troubled in the same scheme when thrust into the heat of the game.

          • Stephen Stempo

            It’s not Vicks fault in 10 years in the leagu it’s not Vicks fault. It’s the coaches. It’s the receivers. It’s not Vick. Just let vick be Vick.

          • JofreyRice

            *fool hearted s/b foolhardy

            *tatter s/b tether

      • theycallmerob

        Eh…I’m not, since then we’ll have fans clamoring for a long-term deal next year. Big picture

        • Phils Goodman

          The Eagles don’t sign old players to contracts they can’t escape from.

      • GEagle

        cliff…all the physical tools in the world don’t mean anything if you don’t have the FBI to use it properly. scw his Physical gifts. it’s a curse. that is a reason he never played the position and still has times when he looks like a rookie
        ..
        if this was Vicks 3rd year in this offense, maybe I would be excited. at the end of day, his ability doesn’t even matter if you can’t stay on the field. Who wants to waste time on a guy that you are lucky if he gives you 12 games a season?..Maybe if Vick slid every single time he ever ran with the ball, like Rodgers does, then I would be excited…I hate the way he plays the game. despise it…..now if you can add the element of the run game, while also commanding the offense and taking care of the ball the way Wilson and KAp were able to do last year, then I would love a running QB. but Ideally, we would have a QB so good that he could just shred you from the pocket and never have to take off…

        Staying Healthy is everything in the NFL

        • cliff henny

          you’ve chatted enough with me to know i’m not even close to a vick apologists. i have dont have any illusions as to who vick is. maybe one pont clears it up, i dont think either foles or vick will be qb in ’14 regardless of what they do. but today, vick’s physical skills along with kelly’s mind…i gotta see 6-8 games. would it surprise me if it was a total failure…not even slightly. foles is foles, nice distributor of the ball, maybe get to be above average. watch marioti’s tape vs foles tape at AZ and last year. i’m taking marioti and he might not even be the best coming out next yr.

          • GEagle

            I know..don’t think I’m coming at you..Just giving my millions of thoughts on why the unknown intruigs me more then Vick..Kind of like AR. We didn’t know who are next coach would be, we just knew we didn’t want it to be Andy. that’s where I am at with Vick..I literally have no clue how good Foles can be, but IMO from the intangibles he displayed, and The Gun I saw in College, I think he has a chance…and would rather spend the 2013 season finding out, then watching Vick fool me again for the hundredth time

          • cliff henny

            i cant and dont argue that. why i’m for vick is…we’re 9-6, down 31-27 with 2 mins left on the clock, nfc east title on the line…no other variables…who do you want as your qb? who has better chance of getting us there…my answer today is vick. i will be pulling for foles to blow me away in preseason games cause i do agree we need to see what he is. but, it’s his job to win starting qb from vick.

          • GEagle

            I wasn’t happy to see Vick brought back, but once we opened up that can of worms, then I think can serve a purpose pushing Foles. Vick is not good, and I don’t expect him to be good so soon in any new offense(since he told me before that he needed two years to play good lol)..so Foles should be able to beat out Vick for the job, if he can’t then Foles shouldn’t start because regardless how much I don’t want to watch Vick, nothing is more important then laying down a foundation of hard work, fair competition, earning your spot…so as much as I want to see Foles, he can’t start if the rest of the locker room knows that he doesnt deserve it. No one player or position(even QB) is more important then the culture change, strong foundation we are trying to establish….I just happen to think Foles will improve enough in his second season to beat out such a flawed QB who is filled with terrible habits ….Vick has every single physical advantage imaginable over Foles(besides size which doesn’t matter much when you wear a red jersey)..and a decade worth of starting experience over his competition..what does it say about Vick that he is even with Foles? he is so much more gifted, so much more experienced that if he was a QB worth starting, he would blow Foles out the water in camp! Don’t think that will be the case, but we shall see

    • Capt. Undapants

      Totally agree. Because Foles has already done it, of course. Which is why they brought Vick back and drafted a QB in the fourth round. Because Foles will wipe the floor with all of them. Because he already has.

      • GEagle

        So Foles won’t be the starting Qb of the 2013 Eagles? Lol you sure?

      • Dutch

        Foles didn’t leave Arizona a better than 500 Quarterback he was something like 11 and 17 over the last 3 years at Arizona.

        I’ve never seen a QB come into the NFL from a losing team to become a starter of an expected contender in the NFL.

  • pkatz

    In light of this (and yesterday’s depth chart) do you see the Eagles keeping additional TEs on the roster at the expense of WR spots?

    • Warhound

      I see 4TEs and 5WRs.

      • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

        Active on game day or on the 53 roster?

        • Warhound

          on the 53

    • Andy124

      Didn’t we just have 2 active with the last regime? Not sure.
      We’ll have at least 3 now, and I think 4 is more likely.

  • Bob A

    Exactly Sheil, that’s the whole point. If a player from the 2012 club feels that he’s owed something by this coaching staff, fine, but don’t expect Chip to give it to them. He’ll name the starters when he’s good and ready, all last year’s team proved to him is that when things get tough, they go 4-12.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Offense is definitely the group I’m looking forward to watching the most this year. They’ll without a doubt need to carry this team. Luckily, the NFC East is completely wide open. I wouldn’t label any defense in the division as dominate, so Chip and company have a chance to score points next year.

    Hopefully the stress Chip is putting on improving special teams will come through with results. This will help both sides, putting the offense and defense in better positions. Our opening field position on offense last year was always dismal.

    I’m most interested in what Chip does in the short and intermediate game, something that has been lacking big time for a few years. With the importance Chip has put on TE’s we should see this opening up big time, and coupled with the running attack, this should open up the deep stuff as well.

    All in all, it’s going to be fun to watch.

    • GEagle

      I think our defense has a tremendous advantage of practicing against the Eagles Offense, that will require them to be very sharp pre snap to deal with all the motion and players lining up all over the field. it’s going to be tough enough pre-snap against a chip Kelly offense, but when you have to spend months practicing against it at a ridiculously fast pace, you are ally training your brain to diagnose, and make the right reads quickly..so when our defense starts lining up on Sundays against teams that huddle, it’s going to be easier for us…I love that they have Kendrick’s now also making the calls with Demeco. Kendrick’s is going to be so good it’s scary. the kid is basically walking around as if he has a secret that he can’t wait to share with the world,

      • Brian

        There’s a disadvantage to that as well. We’re practicing against a type of offense that we’ll only play against a handful of times (I know we have a scout team). Also, I could be over thinking this.

        • GEagle

          I don’t see it. offenses won’t move their pieces around more then us. If you can practice against all our shifting and motion at such a high pace..you can identify your right reads personal against any team that huddles up at a much slower pace. Our defense is getting very valuable mental training and conditioning practicing against our offense every day..If our defense can’t adjust quickly to the offensive movement in practice, they will get embarrassed. INVALUABLE TRAINING IMO

          • Brian

            What you’re saying seems logical. However, I don’t think Oregon showed that to be true by being especially good on defense. Need to check the stats.

  • Max Lightfoot

    If half of Kelly’s ideas will work in the NFL, he’ll be a great success. But as with all NFL coaches, he must depend on the players and this crew needs more depth to be competitive, IMO. One more good draft at least, I believe. I’m enjoying the open competition framework, especially for Vick and DJax – I don’t think either player is owed much of anything other than a chance to compete. Complaining about it will not serve either one well. Chip is listening to every grumble, and while he’s been saying it’s no big deal, I suspect he is taking notes.

  • GEagle

    can someone give me an example of another 33yr old player, who after starting for a Decade people were still projecting what he could be?
    ..
    Btw, the Oline held up fine early on last year. getting pressure on Vick had nOTHING to do with the pathetic Cleveland performance…good think the excuse last year was that it was the 2nd year in a new offense so now he would be ready to be sharp. Hahahahahahaha…Now it’s year 1, going into a much more mentally challenging Offense, drastically different from anything he has seen in god knows how long. when was the last time Vick played in a spread? Lol Foles played in it 2 seasons ago…our Coach wants option routes with the WR for Crying out loud. How the hell can anyone have confidence in Vick doing that? WR option routes with Vick(who has zero experience in it) is a horrifically frightening thought. Foles had some success with that just a few seasons ago at Zona….This offense is literally the exact offense of how Vick plays the game. drop Back, hold the ball so he can look for that superman, Homerun pass, feels pressure, takes off, takes a viscious hit, and thinks it makes him cool or tough. it makes him a friggin idiot!!!…I watch a much slower Aaron Roger destroy defenses with his legs, and at the end safely slides, while the defense goes bonkers that they can’t touch him. yet after all the injuries, all the times he got hurt outside the pocket, this DOPE doesn’t have the brain capacity to not dive head first every single time…..Sorry, if Sliding is too hard for you, and mentally challenging for you, then you have no frigging business running an offense

  • Maggie

    Sir, I hate to see either QB rated on 2012. Vick was forced to try to throw 50 or 60 times downfield behind a broken O line. Remember when McCoy only touched the ball FOUR times one game? I believe the AVERAGE number of pass attempts per NFL game is 30-40. Then Foles was given a completely different set of plays, with options and a running game, and still did not perform well. Also behind the same O line, of course. Morninwheg(?) even said that once Foles was broken in, they would go back to throwing long passes every down. Both Morninwheg and Reid seemed incapable of quick-thinking or adjusting in the past 4 years or so.

    • Dutch

      More amazingly, Reid decided once he got to Kansas City to implement an attack spread offense. Apparently to put Alex Smith in a scheme he’s comfortable and, has shown some success managing with the 49ers. This is a complete reversal to trying to restrict Vick of all Quarterbacks to the pocket in an attempt to convert him to a pocket passer.

      Reid epitomizes being a “Dollar short and Day Late”

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        That makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Can you IMAGINE what the last few 2 years would have looked like had he done that.

        Sigh.

      • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

        Though I will say Vick is a MUCH better QB then he was in Atlanta – Reid did help him there – just used him badly after he bettered his skills. That’s the main reason I’d like to see Vick in Kelly’s offense – I’m thinking it will be pretty explosive.

  • damrvrhunter

    As is par for the course when it comes to the Vick apologist they restrict all their praises to his physical tools nary a word is ever uttered about his major cerebral shortcomings.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Keep em coming man, what else ya got?!

  • cliff henny

    not true at all…we had a discussion on here about week/ten days ago. i asked you why you thought vick would change? change being the word(maybe you recall). i dont think vick will change, i’m hoping kelly’s scheme hides the flaws. i also personnally cant stand vick, monday thru saturday, but sunday 1pm, i’m wanting him as my qb.

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    Best not to use handling the blitz as a reason for Vick over Foles. Both of them looked terrible handling it.