Eagles Wake-Up Call: Kelly On the Read Option

During Chip Kelly’s final media session last week, a reporter posed the following question:

There’s always been talk about whether the option will work in the NFL. You seem to be running quite a bit of it. Is that a fallacy…?

Kelly interrupted. “Is it a fallacy that we run quite a bit of it?” he said. “Yes.”

Ever since he was hired back in January, Kelly has maintained that he would adapt his offense to personnel. That may or may not include a scheme where the quarterback has to be a running threat.

For months, many wondered what the head coach was looking for out of his signal-caller. But the team’s selection of Matt Barkley in the fourth round showed that Kelly is open to rolling with a quarterback without much mobility.

During practices open to the media, we saw the offense take reps running the read option, and not just with Michael Vick. Nick Foles and Barkley had turns at it too. But during team drills (7-on-7s and 11-on-11s), it wasn’t central to the offensive attack.

“If you watch us, we may run two of them in practice,” Kelly said. “We don’t come in here and say we’ve got this play that no one knows about, watch it, and we run it twice. We have an offense that has a great size to it in terms of what we’re doing, that’s just one small part of it. It’s a weapon to be used. It’s a tool in the toolbox. If that situation comes up, you use that tool. If that situation does not come up, we may not use that tool. But we have it in our toolbox, and what we want to do in our offense is have enough tools in our toolbox that we can compete every Sunday. And then take those tools out.”

Kelly estimates that about two-thirds of the Eagles’ offense has been installed. We’ve seen some of the read option. We’ve seen wide receiver screens. We’ve seen two tight-end sets. We’ve seen a heavy dose of the running game. And we’ve seen downfield passing concepts.

With the quarterback competition expected to heat up during training camp, it seems clear that Kelly will decide how big a part of the offense the read option is based on who he chooses as the starter.

But there’s no guarantee that it’s going to be at the core of the Eagles’ operation.


T-Mac has details and images of the Eagles’ $129 million renovation plan.

Kelly’s idea for the fly-swatter contraptions we’ve seen at practice stemmed from Japanese samurai flags.

One national writer says Kelly better be careful. Here’s what they’re saying about the Eagles.

Kelly expects players to be in shape when they return for training camp. “You can’t fake football,” he said.


Zach Berman of the Inquirer takes a look at president Don Smolenski’s role in the organization:

Whenever Roseman signs a player, he consults with Smolenski. When Kelly wants to play music during practice, plans for training camp at the Eagles’ facility, or needs a significant investment in weights and technology, those issues must come across Smolenski’s desk.

“But it’s all with the eye toward how do we make this work, and what’s the best way to make this work?” Smolenski said.

Vick needs to be patient, writes Rich Hofmann of the Daily News:

The problem for Vick is that Kelly has made it eminently clear that he is not close to making up his mind. And that if Kelly were to make up his mind based upon what everyone has done so far in shorts and against air, the decision might go Foles’ way, not Vick’s.


No offseason for Birds 24/7. We filled up our notebooks last week and have plenty to get to in the coming weeks.

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  • Richard Colton

    well, no kidding. You spend months picking out a new head coach with a reputation for offensive innovation, the expectation is that he’ll innovate. Call it a “fast paced” offense, call it “CK2K” but calling it an “option” offense? Give me a break.

    We’ll see the wide 9 more than we’ll see option this year.

    • Stuart Philp

      The only thing you can call it right now is the no-huddle offense. It remains to be seen if it will look like something the Patriots currently do, or more like what the Bills did in the early 90s, or something else entirely.

  • Scott J

    I think Vick is surprised at how well Foles has looked, and he feels threatened. That’s why he made those comments.

    • knighn

      By many accounts, Foles is a much better player this year versus last. Here is one of those accounts:

      http://blogs.mcall.com/eagles/2013/06/eagles-minicamp-practice-notes-june-6-2013.html (Jimmy Kempski, Allentown Morning Call, June 6)

      • Dutch

        at this point Foles looks good, as did Kevin Kolb did playing Two Hand Touch and Flag Football.

        • knighn

          Truth. Like Lawlor said over on IgglesBlitz,
          “That’s great news for Foles fans, but it doesn’t mean much. It is the equivalent of leading the Indy 500 after 12 laps. While you’d rather be first than second, the race is just getting started.”

          Here’s my truth: if an NFL career is also like the Indy 500, Vick is on lap 499 (make that 499 and 1/2). He will be a 33 year-old QB who has only played all 16 games ONCE. He has zero Super Bowl wins to his name, very few playoff wins, and mediocre passing stats over his career (although very impressive running stats).

          Neither Foles nor Barkley may be the QB of the future. That has yet to be seen. We know with near certainty, looking only at Vick’s age, injury history, and playing history that Vick is almost done. The only remaining question with Vick: will he go out with a bang or a whimper?

          • Dutch

            I don’t agree, I expect Matt Barkley to be the unquestioned future of the Phila Eagles and under no circumstance can I see Foles progressing beyond what he showed at Arizona and in Phila in 2012

          • knighn

            So, who starts the most games at QB for the Eagles in 2013?

          • cliff henny

            another place you lose me, how you have unblinding faith in barkley, and want to burn foles at the stake alive. many reports have barkley well behind in 3rd, his arm strength significantly weaker than foles (which has greatly improved). football iq, both are extremely high. just dont see a huge difference between foles and barkley, how you dispise one and over the top on the other

          • Andy124

            See, you’re assuming that he believes what he is typing. When someone wants to stir the pot so to speak, they will often adopt an indefensable point of view and defend it as long as they continue to recieve attention.

          • cliff henny

            i do, he is very consistant in his defense, in an all over the map, circular logic, switch subjects, personal attack kind of way. but only where foles is concerned. he thinks eagle will do realitively well this year, even though foles could be qb (i’m a vick guy, but i’d freaking love it here if kelly names foles-Dutch will pitch a fit few have ever seen). even if vick is, he’s not that much better than foles at this time or kelly would have stopped competiton. there’s no reason to believe defense will be any better than last year considering safeties are still extremely scary, cbs arent anything to write home about, and front 7 is learning new scheme with multile players being out of position stop-gaps. i’d be estatic with 8-8

          • Wait…

            “I have not been to Eagles practice to see the action with my own eyes. I am making this judgment after reading practice notes and Twitter comments”

            So he’s interpreting other’s people interpretations? And that’s a valid perspective?

            lol. Okay.

          • knighn

            Do you read Sheil very often? He respects Lawlor enough to quote him regularly. Or do you not respect Sheil and you’re really only here to make fun of him?

          • i respect Shiel ’cause he was at the practices and made reports. You don’t get to have an opinion on play you didn’t see – you can however do a round up of reports from camp. That’s different.

          • Is someone forming an opinion on something based on what they’ve heard from people being there a new concept? Am I missing something? This happens regularly in any form of reporting.

          • cliff henny

            of course you can. he amasses information from people he respects, analyses it and produces an opinion using his own knowledge on subject.

          • knighn

            Sheil also works with Lawlor on the Eagles Almanac. Sheil respects Lawlor. If you respect Sheil, shouldn’t you respect Lawlor by extension?

          • Um..no. There is no third degree of respect thing happening.

          • So basically you pick and choose who you respect based on what? How much they do or do not like Vick? Do you actually read his material?

          • No. Based on their reporting skills and when I can’t tell who they like. Sheil may be a secret Foles Fan Boy. I wouldn’t know. He reports the good the bad an the ugly – with very little bias and a hint of (really) dry humor.

            A cat on another blog by the name of Potex who needs to be a sports writer (dude is AWESOME) gives it to you straight no chaser too…once again I don’t know who he likes or dislikes.

            Too often people are called Sports Journalists when they are little more than opinion columnists with an ax to grind. Notice I didn’t mention anything about Lawlor’s credentials – I said in this instance giving me an opinion as emphatically as he does, based on the the writing of other’s seems/is silly

          • So essentially you like to read people who don’t have a negative opinion on Vick. Ok.

            If you actually took the time to read Tommy’s work you will see that he has no ax to grind. He shares a common opinion amongst Eagles fans, that although Vick may be the most talented QB, he struggles in the areas that Kelly values the most- decision making and ball security.

            Hate to break it to you dear, but Tommy and Sheil have the same job titles. They’re Eagles bloggers. Sheil has more of a journalism background, where as Tommy has a scouting background. Doesn’t make either of them more or less qualified. In fact, it may even make Tommy more qualified.

          • “So essentially you like to read people who don’t have a negative opinion on Vick. Ok.”

            Once again you’re making it about Vick. Shiel has posted plenty of negative things about Vick. As have other reporters who’s opinions I respect. So no – I don’t have problems with people who post negative things about M. Vick or any other QB – I have a problem with folk who have obvious biases that show through their work.

            Once again I don’t read Tommy’s work. I didn’t say he had an ax to grind – I said “Too often people are called Sports Journalists when they are little more than opinion columnists with an ax to grind.” That was a general comment on sports journalism and philly sports journalism in particular – not directed at one journalist in particular.

            On another note you seem really obsessed with Michael Vick. No matter how many times I say – I like reporters who report the facts and where you can’t tell who they like or don’t like – you keep bringing it back to Vick.

            You claim I’m the fangirl, but you’re the one who can’t seem to keep his name out your mouth.

          • I can see why it might seem like I’m obsessed with Michael Vick to you, as you only partake in discussions regarding Foles/Vick. If you took the time to read or comment on any other subject here, you would see I regularly discuss all aspects of the team. I’m a big Vick fan anyhow, I own his Eagles jersey and have an autograph copies of his autobiography and his ESPN magazine cover. I admire how he has turned around his life and what he has done as a football player. Michael earned a 100 million dollar contract based on his work he did in 2010 that he was never able to replicate. I don’t hold that against him, but as I have stated numerous times I don’t let my view of Vick cloud what is best for my Eagles.

          • As I stated above – I comment on a lot of things – often Foles or Vick tend to be tangential to those things – particularly lately because of OTAs/Mini-camp – but not the main focus of the comment – then if I say anything remotely construed as positive about Vick (or negative of Foles) it becomes a $#&@ storm.

            “…but as I have stated numerous times I don’t let my view of Vick cloud what is best for my Eagles.”

            Then you should be rooting for the best guy for the job. As I am. Which I have also stated a gazillion times, but seems to fall on deaf ears.

          • knighn

            OK. So you’re narrow-minded. Wonderful. FYI: there’s no 1st degree of respect thing happening here. And since I don’t respect you, please tell me how much you don’t respect me so we can close this loop. Moving on… feel free to troll the rest of these people. When you tell me you don’t respect Tommy Lawlor, you have proven yourself to be clueless. You are no longer worthy of my time.

          • I didn’t say I didn’t respect Tommy Lawlor I said he didn’t get my respect simply ’cause Shiel has my respect.

            “If you respect Sheil, shouldn’t you respect Lawlor by extension.”

            That is what you said right? Oh. Okay.

          • Please stop. Tommy has forgotten more about the Eagles than you know. He’s highly respected in the Eagles and college football scouting community. He’s featured on the Eagles website weekly. His opinions are very much valid.

            Sheil features Tommy’s opinion regularly on the site, but when Tommy does it’s not valid?

          • Once again..you don’t get to say:

            “I have not been to Eagles practice to see the action with my own eyes. I am making this judgment after reading practice notes and Twitter comments”

            …and then have an opinion about it. This isn’t about what he knows – this is about his ability to report on something HE DID NOT SEE.

            You can’t give an opinion on who’s winning a QB comp (as emphatically as he does) and you never watched a single play – just basing it off what others said – A round up of “What They’re Saying about the QB Comp” would have been the way to go there.

          • You absolutely can. When you trust the reporting of the people you’re reading, you can form an opinion. This is not a new concept. I’m sorry you’re mad he thought Foles looked slightly better than your BFF Vick, but as you may have read it’s not all grim news and he still feels Vick will win the job.

          • knighn

            You have an opinion on it. Were you there?

          • I don’t have an opinion that anyone won – I have a “sound like they did some good things and some bad thing Vick has the best arm – Foles was more accurate” opinion.

            But I would not write a Fole is leading or Vick won piece ’cause I wasn’t there – I would do a round up piece and allow my readers to form their own opinion.

          • Dutch

            Especially considering the source where he’s getting those stated opinions. If the reporters who may or may not have seen the practices aren’t knowledgeable enough to diginishe between what they are watching how valid can their second hand reports be when posted by this Tommy guy?

            For what it’s worth he’s only been blogging about 8 years. That is not long enough in my case to know more than a thimble full pf knowledge on Football and the Eagles. I read his bio and I’m not impressed he more than a mouthpiece employed by the Eagles web site to reinforce their marketing campaign. It was the association with the Eagles that allowed him certain access to scouts who gave him pointers in what to look for in candidates.

          • So Dutch, using your usual flawless logic… If Tommy is such a hack, and you believe Sheil is the greatest writer this city has seen in years, why does Sheil regularly share Tommy’s work here, even choosing to work with Tommy on side projects in regards to the Eagles?

          • Andy124

            See, you’re assuming that he believes what he is typing. When someone wants to stir the pot so to speak, they will often adopt an indefensable point of view and defend it as long as they continue to recieve attention.

          • knighn

            AKA Trolling. This has to be it. No one can possibly be that devoid of sense and reason to constantly change his position just for the hell of it.

    • No one feels threatened by anyone in shorts. No. One.

  • Brent E. Sulecki

    Foles is really letting his play do his talking out there. great team guy. and from practice reports is really making plays. no bat downs by the fly swatters that’s for sure. and lets not be confused, the fly swatters are for Vick.

  • JofreyRice

    Kelly’s been good to his word, and his billing. He’s opened up the QB competition, and he’s not showing rigidity, in terms of things he wants to do on O.

    Didn’t Kelly say something about “getting everyone on tape”, presumably to evaluate during the time between now and TC? I wonder if they actually do plan on naming a starter between now and then? I wonder how far out it goes until they do? All the way through the preseason? I’d assume the first game, since Vick will start earning low-grade starter money after that.

    I know the reps aren’t an issue due to the practice speed, but isn’t there some benefit to knowing who “the guy” is?

    • I hope so. I doubt we’ll see them come say out right that either guy is the starter, but the reps will do the talking in training camp/pre-season. By all 2nd hand accounts I’ve been reading, Foles had a much better spring than Vick, but of course it’s only the spring. July and August will be when “the cream rises to the top” and the sconces really start popping.

      • aub32

        I don’t know where people are getting Foles had a much better camp than Vick. I’d really like to see those articles. From my account they are pretty even. Foles has been accurate but still struggles deep. Vick has been fitting passes into tight windows, but needs to continue with working on passing lanes. Based on what I’ve read, I think anyone who feels either player has had a much better camp is paying attention to what they want about their guy.

        • As someone posted above:

          http://blogs.mcall.com/eagles/2013/06/eagles-minicamp-practice-notes-june-6-2013.html From Jimmy Kempski

          Also a few more from Jordan Raanan



          As well as what I’ve been hearing on twitter (I follow all the beat guys religiously)

          • Wilbert31

            Nice links! Thanks. I’ll take the much younger Jason Kidd type. We have plenty of guys who can run with the ball.

          • Richard Colton

            Both Raanan stories were really interesting. He’s not a guy I typically read – how objective is he (in your opinion)?

          • cliff henny

            he seems pretty objective. on 2nd article where he follows Foles, it didnt have the usual vick bashing. that’s the worst part about this competition, seems if you are for one, part of the arguement requires bashing the other. part i liked, sounds like foles improved his arm strength and release time, both were an issue. shouldnt be a shocker a 2nd yr player is getting better.

          • Dutch

            That would be consistent with the pool of writers who share similar ideas in and around Phila. Those guys over the years have never been what you would consider objective in their post.

            That fact has long been established in the Phila region. The typical opinions are those heard and read often from the same writers as if discussed at the Monday nite poker game.

            That’s what makes Sheil so different. In the last 40 years Sheil compares favorably well with legends Ted Silary, Larry Merchant and Chuck Stone as the only Phila writers with an original thought and some sense of objectivity.

        • Stephen Stempo

          The thing is. As a 33 year old qb with turn over problems being “even” with the 22 year old kid whos less turnover prone is losing.

          • True, but at the same time it’s not unusual to see a young guy overachieve in shorts. Best to take this whole thing with a grain of salt.

          • cliff henny

            i’m a vick guy, only cause i think if we’re 9-6 and qb is playing well, team’s rolling, battling for nfc title, i’m picturing qb as vick. but any other scenerio, i’m pulling for foles to win job. your point is spot on, when people argue last year’s stats, they can be spun to benefit either, which to me, is an arguement for foles.

        • Andy124

          What if you just take out the word, “much”?

          • Good point, much better may have been excessive.

        • It’s only from Philly guys – many with a well documented history of not liking M. Vick. Most national media didn’t see it that way.

          • Dutch

            Reading and frequenting any publication distributed on a national scale and, of course this site you would never hear the same opinions that you hear from talk radio and read that are posted by Philly area writers.

            There is not one mention of Foles showing any potential last seasons in his appearances. There is nobody who believes Vick despite his faults can be dethroned by Nick Foles. The discussion on a regional and national level surrounds Barkley challenging Vick and Barkley probably would be making a better case if he were given the same considerations throwing to the perceived first team skill position players. All the players are playing under a new coach in a new system so it’s not realistic that Vick or Foles has a better grasp of the system thus far than Barkley.

            That Pig doesn’t fly as an excuse why Barkley isn’t receiving the same considerations.

          • Warhound

            Remember, many of the national media are fools.

          • Dutch

            That’s a pretty common theory well received by the posters here in the Hate Vick Fraternity. They felt Jaws and Gary Cobb were fools based on their analysis and predictions when it came to a number of Issues surrounding Chip Kelly’s offense and the QB competition. The same posters were ready to burn in effigy Sal Paolantonio last week for his reporting on what he seen in mini camp and the competition perceived to give Vick the upper hand.

          • Warhound

            I don’t hate Vick; and, I said “many”. I do not put “Jaws” in that category.

          • Most National media guys have no clue what’s going on in Philly. They show up once a summer and act like they know what they’re talking about. Guys I’ve mentioned above have been at every OTA that has been made available to the media.

            So you’re saying guys who have to cover 32 teams know more about what’s going in Philly than the guys who focus on the Eagles? Or is it because they don’t share your crush on Vick?

          • Dutch

            Why Wouldn’t National Writers not be zeroed in on the Eagles, Chip Kelly’s reputation arrived before he did in Phila, Phila is located smack in the middle of the Mid Atlantic Seaboard, 80 Miles from NYC and approx 110 from Washington DC. It’s a major NFL Media center, why is it assumed Phila on most purposes isn’t a hotspot for the National Media?

            Do you assume that access is limited in any way to only Phila local writers? That would probably be a credible refute if Phila was near Wisconsin or Arkansas.With in 110 Miles on the eastern seaboard, there are no less than 4 NFL Teams. Giants, Jets, Eagles, Raven and Redskin all within a 2.5 hour drive.

          • Dutch, their geographical proximity to the Eagles is irrelevant and not my point whatsoever. It’s the fact that these guys cover 31 other teams as well. There is no way they can have the same knowledge of a team as a person that covers that team exclusively.

          • LOL.

            Notice my comment was on those reporters who actually WATCHED OTAs/Mini Camp. Meaning they saw what happened – and reported – there are national media writers that are assigned to NFC East teams – so it’s in their jobs to keep up with these things.

            It never ceases to amaze me that it’s perfectly okay to hate Vick, despise his style of play, swear he’s never accomplished anything – but anyone who has a differing opinion has a “crush” on Mike Vick or is a “VIckologist” or some other silly thing.


          • It’s pretty obvious to anyone who reads what you write that you’re a Vick fan first. You seem to only chime up to either defend Vick or to bash Foles. I just scrolled through all your comments for the past 16 days, and every single one was about Vick or Foles. Unlike you, most of us here and Eagles fans first and foremost. We don’t have a personal vendetta against Vick as person, we’re just sick and tired of watching him make the same mistakes, and we’re all ready to move on, whether it be Foles or Barkley.

          • Dutch

            Foles duplicated the same mistakes, Fumbles and Interceptions, bad judgement and wrecked mechanics and being sacked waiting on down field routes to develop. Moreover, those are the very mistakes that were highlighted in Foles career at Arizona and highlighted in his scouting reports.

          • You mean the same mistakes that Vick, a 10 year vet, has been making all his career?

          • Richard Colton

            Knock it off. We all know that minor fumbling issue was solved when CK personally worked with Vick one-on-one. Of course, CK says that never happened, but who are we to question Vick’s amazing body of work? Especially his last two years.

          • SIgh…actually I was an Eagles fan before Vick ever showed up. Will be an Ealges fan after.

            On most Philly blogs you’re a “Vick fan first” if you don’t share the opinion he needs to go and he has nothing to offer the Eagles.

            “the past 16 days, and every single one was about Vick or Foles.”

            I have commented on the same things everyone else has commented on – the Ealges QB comp. I’ve talked about fly swatters, Shiel’s reporting and Philly reporters – Vick/Foles have benn tangential to those comments – not necessarily the focus.

    • cliff henny

      probably is a benefit to naming a guy, and i’d think before week 3 of preseason. if for no other reason, it just getting to be time. think reporters were asking questions may 30th about qb competition, wait till august 14th, holy smokes…they’ll be asking/harping people all the way down to the equipment manager. it’s a long season, and fatigue sets in, and wouldnt want players getting mental fatigue over this issue. by then, kelly will have the info he needs to make a decision. plus, whoever starts game 3 of pre-season we’ll assume is starter anyways. then you have a whole new set of questions. kelly can battle some of the ‘it’s the way it’s always been’ bs around the league, but this one is going to be tough. once that roster is paired down to 53, wont be enough reps to roll players like he is now. players will want to know rolls.

  • An article mentioning Foles and Vick?

    Dutch’s Foles bashing in T-5..4..3..

    • Richard Colton

      It won’t happen Adam. Dutch has been consistently saying that any journalist who doesn’t realize that CK is running the read-option is “lazy.” and that any fan thinking the same thing is “ill informed.” My guess is he stays away from this thread entirely. I mean, he has to right? Out of pride?

      I’m sure there will be another Vick/Foles/Barkley thread soon. He can jump back on then.

      • nicksaenz1

        While I agree with mostly everything, I ask you this: Has he ever passed up a golden opportunity to preach to us how awful of a QB he thinks Foles is?

        • Richard Colton

          hate to say “I told you so” but check the newest thread… :-)

          nope – you were right. should have known

          • nicksaenz1

            I wonder if he tried to hold back at all. I’m picturing him staring at the screen trying not to type anything like a fat guy staring at a Twinkie, trying to break the power of the Twinkie.

        • Dutch

          No more than you preach the failed idea that Foles showed he’s capable of being a legitimate NFL Starter after his appearances last season.

      • cliff henny

        i dont know about that. Dutch has a fool proof plan when given information to disprove his point…he either ignores it, or deems it inaccurate/lipservice based upon kelly’s history at Oregon.

        • Richard Colton

          what ill informed deem “lip service” is in reality fact based evidence that any logical analysis will show, ipso facto, proves that Foles is the worst starting QB in the history of this or any other league. Any true scottish journalist knows that it takes exactly five games to project the arc of a QB’s career.

          • nicksaenz1

            Good thing there’s a 6th game. This way we can eliminate the best performance as an outlier.

          • Andy124

            Neither quarterback had any statistical outliers going by their quarterback ratings and IQR. There are plenty of other ways to determine statistical outliers, but that’s the one I knew off the top of my head.

            Foles’s worst game was close. It actually came out as an outlier the first time I looked at it, but after I double checked how to calculate the Q1 and Q3 points for odd versus even datasets, not so much.

          • nicksaenz1

            You missed the sarcasm.

          • Andy124

            Nah, I caught it. I just used your post as an exuse to mention the lack of outliers… ’cause I felt like it. :)

          • nicksaenz1


          • cliff henny

            we forgot 3rd option…media bias.

          • Dutch

            Account for this: all representatives in the local phila media who are alumni of the NFL have an opinion that there is nothing legitimate about Foles being considered to start over Vick, while those with no experience in playing serious College or Professional Football take the other avenue and promote the idea Foles showed promise and potential in 2012 and should be considered to start over Vick in 2013?

            How is it that the line between the two competing sides is so obvious and clear.

          • Richard Colton

            My god, it’s too funny. You’ve become a caricature of yourself.

            OK – at least pony up and admit you were dead wrong about the “Read Option” debate from a few days ago. It’s either that or say Chip Kelly is wrong about his own offense.

          • Dutch

            The opinion of local hacks, duplicating articles with sentiments that ran in competing publications recently in the area isn’t sufficient to move my opinion one bit. I rarely read other sports writers in the area for more than amusement.

            They have shown to me a long time ago they haven’t a clue about the fundamentals of football.

          • Richard Colton

            journalists with whom you disagree are hacks. that’s a reasonable perspective I suppose.

          • Dutch

            You could say that……… when it comes to football, reporters who lack the basic knowledge of formations would definitely qualify as hacks. What else would you call someone one writing on a subject matter they have no idea about?

          • Brian


          • LOL

          • cliff henny

            lol, i just said the same to him above. great strategy…those whom he agrees with, smart, those not, either never played, not sure how that’s hugely realivent (reporters cover president though they were never president themselves) or have ax to grind w/ vick

          • Do you really believe they are practicing the read option not to use it? A scheme that he’s had success with in college and has seen recent success in the NFL. Come on.

            No one ever said he was going to run a read option only offense. No. One. Said. That. But to think that’s not going to be part of his scheme is silly.

          • cliff henny

            if the qb who wins the competition has the ability to run that play, then yes, he’ll use it. some of the vick supporters act like running this play will be in the top 1 or 2 factors in kelly determining a qb, while kelly has repetitively said, it’s probably 4th or 5th.

          • Richard Colton

            Yeah, they did. feel free to look. G.Cobb said Vick would be the QB because he was a better fit for “Read Option.” I said they would probably run the play a few times per game and that choosing a QB based on his ability to execute a play that is less than 5% of your offense didn’t make sense. League average last year was 32 read option plays per week. I also said naming your offense after a play you would (maybe) run twice a week was silly. Dutch agreed with G.Cobb and said anyone who didn’t think the Eagles were running the “Read Option” wasn’t informed and didn’t know football.

            Please re-read the above article and tell me what you think. Or don’t

          • Dutch

            Could you identify if and when the Eagles lined up in the Spread ? Or what is the fundamental tenant of the spread option? If that the offense that has catapulted Kelly up the ranks of college coaching success and he’s seen that success in the NFL, why would he install another concept?

            I think some of you as do the local reporters have a misconception on what defined a Spread attack offense.

          • Richard Colton

            Sure. The CK Eagles have used the spread in 0 out of 0 offensive plays. Because (and you may not be aware, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) they haven’t played a snap yet.

            Now I said the Eagles will run the Read Option less than 2X a game (on average). You attacked that, and proceeded to attack every journalist that pointed that out as a “hack.”

            Then look – Chip Kelly says the same thing in an interview. Is he a hack too? Or does he just not understand the fundamentals of his own offense? Or is it possible that you were wrong? It has to be one of the two, you know.

          • nicksaenz1

            I can’t wait to see how he gets out of this. My guess would be ignoring the question/points posed all together. Right when you think you have him cornered…

          • Richard Colton

            new Dutch strategy – pretend you were arguing something completely different all along. act confused. ask random questions disassociated from thread. more confusion. if you didn’t play, you’re a hack, unless you realize Vick is the logical choice for QB, then you’re OK. rabblerabble. more confusion. end scene. Its exhausting.

          • nicksaenz1

            We’ll call this “The Chin,” for it’s the strategy employed by former Genovese family boss Vincent “The Chin” Gigante to convince the Feds that there’s no way this crazy guy could be a mob boss when he’s roaming the streets in a bath robe talking to himself and giving answers not remotely related to the question at hand.

          • Dutch

            Could you identify a Spread Attack formation? It’s a simple question.

          • Richard Colton

            so what you’re saying is…you were wrong, but not really wrong, because you meant to identify the play in a more general sense, even though you were adamant that it was the “read option.”

            Amazing. even for you. why not admit you were wrong and restore some credibility?

          • Dutch

            I’ll take this reply to mean you wouldn’t know a spread formation if you seen the Eagles lining up in one.

          • Richard Colton

            Is this the voir dire part of the show? You’re ducking the Read Option argument. I’ll happily recap:

            G.Cobb: Vick is the best choice because he runs the Read Option better than any QB on the roster
            Rich Colton: Why would you pick a QB based on his ability to run a play that the Eagles will run, maybe, 2X per game? Read Option isn’t the offense
            Dutch: Anyone who doesn’t realize the Eagles are running the “read option” is an idiot.
            Chip Kelly: “If you watch us, we may run two of them in practice”

            Feel free to continue to deflect, or admit you were wrong.

          • JofreyRice

            “why not admit you were wrong and restore some credibility?”

            because it would be like trying to clean up Deepwater Horizon with a single paper towel?

          • JofreyRice

            I’ve read more convincing and cogent arguments from Darren Daulton.

          • Richard Colton

            neither one is constrained by the rules of time and/or space, and they share a nickname. But Dutch #10 has a World Series ring and has married multiple Hooters girls. As far as I know, ours hasn’t.

          • cliff henny

            it’s very easy to explain why the national media promotes vick over foles…who outside philly even knows who foles is…i follow football probably way too much, and i’d have a hard time naming all the backups. for locals, they dont have to sell anything. that’s the business of reporting, it all comes down to clicks, ad revenue. why espn has qb comp as vick vs barkley…what a joke. every writer to a man has barkely as a distant 3rd. doesnt matter, lot of people in so-cal click on anything barkley related. so yes, i’ll roll the information dice with the local guys, while not being perfect, they arent selling to the masses

          • Dutch

            I asked you specifically why is there such an obvious divide between the preference for Vick by local writers and pundits who actually played in the NFL, and those who have not played any football promoting Foles?

            Forget the national pool of writers for a second and focus on the local writers and pundits covering the Eagles.

          • Oh please, have you heard half of these former football players talk? They can hardly articulate sentences, let alone have a clue what’s going on in the NFL today. I’d love to see Jamie Dukes, Warren Sapp, Shannon Sharpe, and Heath Evens run a football team.

            Marshall Faulk is about the only one worth his salt on any network.

          • Dutch

            We aren’t expanding the criteria to running a team, we were limited to the national and local platforms of which writers and pundits express their analysis on NFL Football and talent. And there are no analysis who have played actually promote the idea that Foles is a legitimate candidate to win a starting job in the NFL and least of all force Vick to the bench in Phila. The only pundits and writers that promote Foles as a creditable candidate are local writers in the Phila Area.

            It is not difficult to follow this issue.

          • As usual Dutch you miss the point. Every time someone proves you wrong you switch to bashing Foles, it’s a pretty hilarious defense mechanism for a person who doesn’t have a clue. You think I’m banging the table for Foles. My point has been and always will be, I don’t care if it’s Foles or Barkley, as long as it’s not Vick. It’s clear to anyone who has watched Vick play the last two season he is not the long term answer for the Eagles. Any snap that Vick takes in 2013 will be wasted snaps.

          • Dutch

            You missed the point, being: Of all the analysis in the local media and pundits there, only those who have NEVER played a serious down of organized football beyond the High School or rec level promote Foles as a candidate to start in the NFL in 2013.

            There was no other point and who could run a team was moot and not worth mentioning other than to avoid that one single issue.

          • cliff henny

            1 guy, g cobb, while entertaining at times, not an info guy. go read lawler’s review of qb situation today. i seriously doubt you know the background of each writer, and, just cause writer played/didnt play, doesnt make his reporting less accurate. most acknowledge the writers opinion, but are forming their own based upon facts being reported. you have a great strategy here, accept reports you like, dismiss and attack those you dont. foles is giving vick all he can handle, his arm strength has improved and his release is quicker. vick still holds onto ball to long (alot of his down-field big play completions are after he got 2-hand touched).

          • Dutch

            Where did Lawler play Football, he’s learned and been passed his opinions by someone else who used to be a scout, isn’t that correct?

            His expertise was derived second hand, right? It’s from that point he started a blog or something like that. He would epitomize a theorist stating his none proven opinion and packaging it for distribution. As much as I admire Ray, he’s legitimized by getting that job at NFL Films. Which gives him a larger platform for his opinions than he had at the Daily News.

          • cliff henny

            tommy knows his stuff…that’s a given if you read his blog. you have to rely on the guys watching day in day out, and form opinion based upon multiple sources. exactly what TL did. you just dont like about 60% of the message and resort to attacking the messenger.

          • Dutch

            I don’t read many opinions stated widely by people who never played the game.

          • knighn

            So the only opinions you trust are the opinions of people who have played? So, in your mind you trust The Countless Hacks employed by the NFL over Ray Didinger? You would trust Matt Millen to run an NFL team over Mickey Loomis?
            For that matter: where did Sheil and Tim play? I’m pretty sure neither of them ever made it to the NFL. Yet you seem to have no problem reading their work every day.
            Could it be that playing football and reporting about football are two completely different skill sets?!

          • Dutch

            Ray cut his teeth with the Daily News before NFL Films created that post for him to enhance their documentaries. NFL Films legitimizes Ray above all else because of the platform he receives with that organization. Sheil is a objective source probably one if not the only in the area and it’s for that reason he’ll probably be going to one of the major publication and media outlets very soon. When the kid that authors this forum was at Philly.com he was distingished from his peers there. He’s one of the best I’ve seen in 40 years at the facts and objectivity in the company of Ted Saliry, Larry Merchant, and Chuck Stone

          • knighn

            So, based on your last two posts: you don’t trust the opinion of people who never played, except when you change your mind and decide to trust them? So, in other words: you’re a politician.

            Your statements are like saying: “Stephen Hawking is NOT really qualified to write about space because he’s never been an astronaut. Except, he’s been doing it a while, and other people seemed to like him, so I guess I can listen to him.”

            It is obvious that you were a player somewhere. Shouldn’t your background as a player inherently give you the skills to be a brilliant writer? Why aren’t you writing somewhere instead of trying to convince us all that Vick (of the pay cut) is the future of the Eagles?

          • How dare you question his flawless loop hole logic.

          • Shiel was the only reason I kept reading Philly.com with any regularity – when he moved I moved. If the national media doesn’t pick him up soon, they’re missing out and are complete fools.

          • Zachary Kahn

            Go read Tommy’s latest article. You sound like one of the dopes he talks about. Foles has been better in practice so far THIS year. That’s why he’s winning the race so far.

      • Dutch

        Dutch also said that the local beat writers forms the opinion that is typical among some Phila Fans surrounding the Team and specifically this so called Quarterback competition.

        It’s lazy reporting in the same fashion that these are the same pundits who convinced the Eagles fans when McNabb was traded that Kevin Kolb was the brilliant choice based on their assessment of Kolb and Eagles press releases up at Lehigh.

        We all know how that turned out.

        The Morning Call could have just reprinted the articles posted last week in the Inquire and Daily News. It’s all borrowed opinion

    • BrickSquadMonopoly

      Ahh i see only Mike’s allowed to get bashed even though hes better. Your logic is undeniable

    • JofreyRice

      just don’t mention him again. It’s like saying B.I.G.’s name in the mirror 3 times on Southpark. Dutch is top 5 dead or alive (in terms of crafting terribly inaccurate and deranged arguments),

    • BlindChow

      The true measure of a troll is how much debate he can stir up when he hasn’t even posted.

    • Dutch

      A rare feat any place outside of the Philly area. I have yet to see Foles mentioned as a legitimate candidate in the noted national or regional Pro Football publications. Most football minds refer to either Vick or Barkley

      • Yeah I was on another Philly Blog site and the guy mentioned all these “reporters” that said Foles won the OTAs/Minicamp – he qualified by saying non-espn reporters and everyone he mentioned was a Philly beat reporter – so no other reporters who were at OTAs from national publications opinion mattered. That’s Philly sports for you.

        • JofreyRice

          So, what is their purpose for reporting that Foles “won” the OTAs/Minicamp?

          I don’t know which national pundits you or Dutch are referring to, but do you think any of those national folks have spent as much time actually *watching* the QB play during OTAs?

          IYO, is it just that the consensus of Philly Beat writers have no idea what they’re looking at, while the national folks have a much clearer picture, (but not watching it firsthand)?

          If the Philly “reporters” are fudging the results of the QB competition, what is their reason for doing so?

          • Once again anyone saying anyone “won” OTAs is silly, MOST (non-philly beat reporters) said basically the same thing – both kinds had their ups and downs – Vick has a better arm – Foles is more accurate – Barkley is smart – overall the offense didn’t look the best ’cause they were just learning the playbook.

            Others would say that they didn’t see anything from Foles that would definitely mean he would unseat Vick. Or they said Foles looked good, Vick shouldn’t assume he can easily win this.

            But almost NONE of them flat out said Foles “won” the OTAs/mini-camp. There are a few that said Vick won – but they were few as well.

          • JofreyRice

            I agree the idea of “winning” OTA’s is kinda silly. I just didn’t understand the “that’s Philly sports for you” comment at the end of your initial post. It seems like you’re insinuating that they are either incompetent or dishonest in saying that Foles performed better. If they’re being dishonest, what is the motivation?

          • People don’t need a motivation to be dishonest as you put it. People often start with an opinion (I think Foles is better than Vick) and then use what they see to back up and ignore everything else – that’s why it’s called bias and not dishonesty.

            Like I’ve said I don’t know if Shiel has a favorite QB or not – but I know from reading his accounts there was no clear sense of a winner – and from other (non-philly beat reporters) there was the same since.

            One guy in his hurry to proclaim Foles the winner of OTAs claimed Vick hadn’t thrown a TD at Mini-camp when THE DAY BEFORE he reported that Vick had thrown a TD. Come on. WTF?

            It’s that kind of silliness you see from Philly sports reporters.

          • JofreyRice

            yeah, still not seeing the reasoning process taking you to a conclusion an entire group of writers would be biased against Vick.

            If Foles wins this competition, are you going to accept that, or in your mind, is it absolutely impossible for Foles to beat Vick?

          • I think you’re seeing what you want to see.

            I said last year there should be a QB comp – so I have 0 problems with one. Also it’s not impossible for Foles to beat Vick – I do think it’s Vick’s job to lose – and he just may. Contrary to what folk think I have no Dog in this race – I’m all for the best guy getting the job.

            The better question is – if Vick win’s this comp will you or the other Staunch Foles supporters going to accept that.

          • JofreyRice

            No, you’re not providing any reasoning on why all of them–independently–would be biased.

            I’m not a staunch Foles supporter, but feel free to keep making assumptions about what I think–much easier!

          • Just returning the favor since you were assuming I would have a problem if Foles won the comp.

          • JofreyRice

            Funny, I seem to have phrased my sentence with one of those funny squiggly things with a dot underneath it. I thought that generally implied a request for knowledge of some type. Hold on, I have an example right here : “?”

          • But the phrasing of the question matters – not just the squiggly line with the dot underneath. The question implied that I’d somehow would have a problem with Foles winning the gig…otherwise why ask it. You coulda just as easily asked the same question ’bout Vick. You didn’t.

          • JofreyRice

            Nope, the question was asking you if you’d have a problem with Foles winning the starting gig, you read the rest into it. I’ll take your word that you will not, if that’s the way it shakes out.

          • Richard Colton

            She’s a winner to you but I know she’s a loser

          • Richard Colton

            Im not a Foles supporter. I hope Vick loses the QB race, because I know he isn’t the long term answer. If CK decides that Foles isn’t the answer either and Barkley is too raw week one, then yeah, I’m OK with it.

          • Brian

            I agree. I’ll be disappointed, but if Chip Kelly believes Foles can’t do it, it is what it is.

          • Her complete denial of being a complete Vick fangirl is astounding.

          • JofreyRice

            I know you feel differently, but I would be OK with Vick for a year, if he wins out from here. I think if Foles can’t beat him out for a starting job, then regardless of Matt Barkley, a franchise QB has to be the target in the draft; and let’s face it, even if Vick beats Foles out, we’ll still probably see Foles in some regular season games, anyway.

            Like I said below, Kelly seems to have been honest. If Vick is the best option at QB on the roster right now, then he’s just a bridge QB to get the Kelly program underway, and hold a place until they draft a franchise guy next year.

          • I will absolutely be upset if Vick wins the job, on the basis that I know starting Vick does not help in the long term interest of the team. If nothing else though, it will lend to the credibility of Chip and his “seize the day” attitude. If Vick is the guy that turns out to be the best in camp then so be it. I am almost guarantee it would be temporary though, as I think it’s only a matter of time Vick will lose the job due to either A) his inability to not turn over the ball over/take sacks or B) his inability to stay healthy for extended periods of time.

            It’s extremely important to realize the two biggest weaknesses in Vick’s game (taking sacks/hits, turning the ball over) that have plagued him his entire career are also the two biggest strength’s Chip values in his QB. His leash will be short, to put it lightly.

      • GoBirds1

        Douche, as usual you come across as a douche. The only football mind that matters is Kelly’s and I am sure he would not be wasting 50% of the reps with the 1s if he did not think he was a legitimate candidate. Is it safe to assume your wife has long left you and your children never talk to you?

  • Andy124

    Even in training camp, the QB’s aren’t getting hit are they? I don’t think that will start until the preseason games, and I think Kelly made it pretty clear he’s not making any decisions until he sees how the guys perform in that situation.
    One of the guys may have a significant lead by the time the games start, but it’s pretty clear imo, that no final decision will be made until he sees them in game action.

  • sprawl

    Pretty sure Chip then followed up his “fallacy” comment with something along the lines of, “Ask the Seahawks if it’s a fallacy that the read option works in the NFL. Ask the 49ers… [etc].”

    So don’t get the idea he’s being too dismissive of it, even if he finds out it’s not working with the current group of players he’s got to work with.

  • Dutch

    Not surprising one of the local Hacks would put in a good mention for Foles in comparison to Vick. There aren’t too many, if any writers at the national publications who dare to mention Foles as a viable candidate to lead the Eagles in 2013.

    Running plays in T Shirts and Short take on an entirely different dimension once the pads go on and pre season games begin.

    When pads go on in July it’s expected Barkley will then set himself apart as the primary talent capable of running this offense. I’ve complete confidence on their return from this break Barkley will have studied his playbook and master the concepts and schemes. I am resolved that Barkley by middle Oct will be starting and Ertz should have a successful year that may get him recognized with ORY.

    • Yeah. Don’t get the faith in Barkley…at all. If anything they sit him for a year – no need to play him year one if not necessary. I beleive they do view him as the future (I’m not sold but hey) however.

      • Dutch

        If it’s perceived that Foles is the starter for any number of reasons, there is little hope of a successful season unless you input Barkley who will no catch a case of stage fright. This is a kid who cut his teeth on playing before crowds of more than 80K and performing on a grand scale over his 4 year career at USC. There is no doubt the speed of the NFL game will not cripple his senses. I don’t expect him to panic and make horrible decisions under a rush and wilt.

        I expect Barkley to stand up in the pocket and not miss a beat in showing he can play with the big boys. That’s always been the case when he was elevated to the next level. He demonstrated that seamless transition time and time against at USC. That’s what Barkley brings to the table that not many QBs over the last 10 years bring into the NFL. Once he learns the playbook it’s going to be near impossible to keep him tattered on the bench and all 3 of the QBs are learning the same playbook at the same time.

        Vick probably needs to kick off the season because of the stretch of games and Quarterbacks the Eagles will face coming out of the gate but after that bring Barkley in and allow him to get his feet wet.

        • Brian

          So, you can’t imagine a scenario where Nick Foles is named the starter?

          • Dutch

            not based on his appearances in 2012 I can’t see him starting before Barkley or Vick

          • Brian

            How about based on training camp and preseason? Is it possible that Nick Foles can outplay Michael Vick, and win the job?

          • Dutch

            I don’t believe based on the body of work by Nick Foles, whether it’s in the NFL in 2012 or at Arizona for 3 years before that he’s capable of being any better than he was last year and I see no chance if Barkley is given the same access to running plays with the first team in camp that Foles compares close to the talent and decision making that Barkley demonstrated over 4 years at USC.

          • cliff henny

            brian, aint no way in god’s green earth you’ll ever get Dutch to agree to that!! just an impossibility in his mind

          • Brian


        • Bob A

          Actually, there are any number of local people that think Vick will win the QB competition, like Sal Pal( national now, but from here) and Mike Miss. Yes, those that favor Foles generally write the same things, and yes, they all seem to mimic one another, and yes, Dutch, most of them don’t have a football pedigree, but the fact that there IS a close competition between a 12 year vet, a guy that did nothing to distinguish himself as a rookie, and a rookie, tells you that this position isn’t exactly a strength for the Eagles. Whoever wins the position will be a pleasant surprise if he plays well at all, and yes, I think it will be Vick.

          • nicksaenz1

            You’re not Dutch

          • Bob A

            No I’m not, just trying to give a reasonable opinion.

          • nicksaenz1

            Ha, the original name given was Dutch, replying to Dutch, thus my comment. Please, provide reasonable opinions under the guise of Dutch. It would be refreshing.

          • Play touch football in shorts does not a competition make. It’s more like the warm- up before the competition. They still don’t even have all the playbook.

            The REAL competition starts in July. I’ve said this on other blogs and got flamed for it, but I stand by it. OTA’s is for conditioning and learning – once pads go on we’ll see how close things are.

            And note – I’m not calling a leader here – I’m just saying I don’t expect things to be close at all whichever way they go.

          • Bob A

            I agree with you about OTAs 100%. I’m just saying I’ve seen both QBs( Vick and Foles) play regular season games with pads and nobody reminded me of Tom Brady. All I can do as an Eagles fan is hope that Kelly’s offense is something that one of these guys suddenly catches onto and plays far better than he’s ever played. I’m just not holding my breath.

    • MJFlint

      Your affection for non Philly writers has me confused. Non Philly writers were the ones telling us how crazy it was to trade D McNabb. Non Philly writers are the ones who still think we are going to greatly regret letting Reid go. I’ll take the word of any of the guys who are there everyday and seeing the going ons than of some national idiot that stopped by a practice to shoot the shit with their buddies in between plays. Graziano is a moron. Peter King is a Reid apologist. I think your opinions of the local media are distorted because you don’t like what they say. Your loss.

      • Dutch

        Philly writers were selling the Eagles Fans on Kevin Kolb before his unveiling at the Linc. That should for any serious fan provide all the ammunition needed to dismiss their assessment of talent at any position in sports.

        That’s a logical argument you make on writers being at practice, but the National writer pool are also present at Eagles practices. Practice isn’t exclusive to philly pool writers.

        What I’m saying is only in dispute by those of you addicted to the area writers and thus don’t relate to the shared opinion within that group. What I’m saying has been the opinion in and around Phila for years this isn’t a new development. I stopped depending on Phila writers other than the young man that authors this forum years ago.

        It’s good the writers are at practice, but what good is served when many have no idea what they are watching? Most of the writers in Philly can’t tell you what Spread represents in Spread Option or have any knowledge of zone blocking.

        • MJFlint

          Ok, I now understand your view point. I do see the “shared opinion” (your words) from the local guys. But my take on that is they are getting more inside info than anyone else and nobody wants to be the guy that is wrong. If they are all leaning toward Foles winning the job I would take that as having some merit to it. There is no way that Roob or Les would put Foles out there if neither thought he was going to be the guy. Wishful thinking does not pay off in their industry. McClain is brutal, and I agree that Sheil and T-Mac have a great thing going here.
          I just put more stock in what I hear from them than I can from Graz or King or anyone else who still thinks Vick can be effective after the last two years. The only reason he was brought back this year was because of Kelly’s perceived hesitation about the alternatives available.
          From the Eagles standpoint they have two guys who they would love to see unseat the other. Cash being the most desired factor. If all things are the same and they can ditch Vick and his leftover salary they will, very quickly. So unless he is above and beyond the others he doesn’t stand a chance. Just my outlook.

          • Dutch

            I don’t think Kelly can afford to play that kind of politics. It would have been much easier to allow the perception become a reality and allow Vick to find a suitable employer in the league. Kelly with the offensive weapons he inherited doesn’t have 2 season to make a drastic change. Drafting Matt Barkley who is expected on a grand scale to compete for the starting position doesn’t make the expectation placed on Kelly any less of a burden.

            The fact we are changing coaches and schemes isn’t excuse enough to not improved on a 4-12 record, and there is definitely no reason to expect any less than a playoff appearance in 2014. Eli and RG III aside, the Eagles have to be back in contention for the division crown next season, for people like me this year although I can see the defense dropping a few winnable games this year.

          • I’m gonna say like I said on another blog:

            There is no reason for the Eagles not to win the division this year. They can compete – anyone who thinks this is a rebuilding team is delusional:

            1. RGIII is a gimp (yeah I said it)
            2. Reid has owned the Giants over the years – I have faith Kelly can do the same – we know Vick can (don’t know if Foles can) so there.
            3. Romo is Romo. ‘Nough said.

            Now the defense…they are the question mark…but you can win the East with 10 games. I think we win at least 10.

          • Dutch

            I am brought on this issue of competing for the division this year and down right elevating to dominating the division again come 14.

          • nicksaenz1

            I talked myself into 11-5 with ease last season. Had to talk myself out of 12-4. Won’t do that again. Regardless of who starts the season for us, I think winning 6 or more is a great starting point given that we have a brand new coaching staff with a brand new offense and a total switch in defensive philosophy and the staff is trying to make a few square pegs fit in round holes, w/ little upgrade to the secondary. Love the optimism, though.

          • Dutch

            The Defense is not going to be any worse than it’s been the last 3 plus years, Transition is no built in excuse for any record less than 8 wins and that is based on building in 3 to 4 loses complements of that defense.

            There is still room for fans with one foot in the water and the other on shore.

          • nicksaenz1

            Ha, okay Dutch. I never called it an excuse, it’s just what it is. 29th in scoring defense last year, so hopefully it can’t get much worse, but, with the lack of real upgrades to the D, namely the secondary, it’s not primed for much improvement, despite the abundance of room. The D was actually decent in 2011, especially in the last half of the season. It was awful last season, and it got worse after we let go of Castillo. Hopefully it’s better, but we shall see. Winning the division or even 10 games is not out of the question, but it’s certainly not likely.

          • It’s very possible the D can be worst next year. The talent was not greatly improved except by removing some guys, plus a lot of the guys will be playing out of position in a completely new scheme. It could be a complete disaster.

          • Les HATES Vick as does Sheridan and McClane isn’t overly fond but tends to be less bias than the other two.

            The problem with most of the Philly writers is they spend a lot of time interpreting what happens on the field based on their own biases – case in point – a whole article about how Vick doesn’t like to throw short or intermediate passes (huh?) and views it as a chore, and his whole demeanor changes when he throws deep passes or runs the ball and that’s going to be a problem later.

            Or over 500+ words why a QB says he’d like a starter to be named before training camp (after being asked would he like a starter to be named before training camp) means he doesn’t get it, and doesn’t deserve to be the QB and if he doesn’t watch it his mouth will get him cut.

            Long Sigh.

            If they reported more about what actually happened and less their opinion I could take them seriously.

          • Dutch

            There were three related articles all full of speculation and preconceived notions nothing of fact all delusional. Also there wasn’t one mention of Barkley in any of the essays in the otherwise promoted open competition.

  • Andy124

    For those interested, Tommy Lawlor is reading what we’re reading and has concluded that Foles has the early lead, which apparently means he’s biased too.
    He makes the same disclaimer as everyone else, it’s early and much can and often does change between now and the start of the season.
    He also offers the opinion that if Vick buys in and starts to do things Chip’s way, he’ll likely win the job… Even though he’s biased.

  • knighn
  • Maniki Jenkins

    My only problem when people try to pick Foles over Vick is they say that Foles is “more accurate” and not as turnover prone. But based on the stats they are pretty much equal. And that’s with the increased amount of dink and dunks and slants that Foles threw last year. Vick without pressure had a qb rating of 99.3, while Foles was only 84. I know that Vick isn’t the long term answer for the Eagles, but i can’t see Foles being able to operate Kelly’s offense to it’s full potential. Same with Barkley. I don’t believe Philly has the franchise quarterback on the team yet. Right now i believe Vick has a better ability to lead the team and generate buzz with the fans than Foles does. I can’t see a team and a city rallying behind Foles as the qb.

    • “I don’t believe Philly has the franchise quarterback on the team yet.”

      Now that’s how I feel.

      IF Vick gets the job I think we can win the East – he gets a nice audition to get a nice cushy contract somewhere else to end his career – but we will still be in need of a QB next year. I’m not sold on Barkley – and Kolb (who I was a fan of) looked better out the gate than Foles ever did. For that reason alone I don’t understand why folk think Foles is the answer.

      • Maniki Jenkins

        Foles just doesn’t fit in with the system of what the offense could potentially be! Yes Kelly said he doesn’t need a mobile quarterback to run his system, but i’m pretty sure he’d prefer one! It helps to have a quarterback who the defense has to watch out for as a running threat in this days NFL.

        • nicksaenz1

          Out of idle curiosity, what system do you think Foles fits?

      • cliff henny

        dont think most people backing foles think he’s the answer, he just deserves a shot. sure some do, though it seems to more of ‘an anyone but vick’ group…which i get. while feeling same as you, unless vick/team starts off very well, see little reason not to play foles and see how much he’s improved. going 7-9 with vick will be more annoying to me than 5-6 wins with foles at qb.

  • Zachary Kahn

    This Dutch guy is worse than Matt Jacobs.

    • Naw. No one was worse than Matt Jacobs.

      • Zachary Kahn

        Fair enough.

    • GoBirds1

      If you pronounce Dutch like the Dutch do, it sounds like douche, So refer to him as what he is, a douche. And maybe he will get the hint and go away!