Twitter Mailbag: Tackles, Trades And Dion Jordan

Every Thursday we select a few of your Twitter questions and provide the long-form answers they deserve. For a chance to have your question published on Birds 24/7, send it to @Tim_McManus.

From @ChefOrnicador_: Is Miami a true candidate to trade up if Eric Fisher is still there at #4?? They have two second round picks.

I can see the Dolphins trying to trade up, definitely. They hold the 12th overall pick and will likely have to move into the top seven to grab one of the three coveted tackles (Luke Joeckel, Fisher and Lane Johnson). But honestly? I’m starting to have my doubts that Fisher will still be there at 4. In a first round full of question marks, one thing that teams seem to agree on is that the tackles are quality options. Maybe Jacksonville or Oakland takes Fisher. Maybe a team leaps into the No. 2 or three hole and snatches him (the Raiders apparently wouldn’t mind trading out),  but it’s quite plausible that two of the tackles are off the board by the time Philly is on the clock.

From @Ryeboat: with talk of the top 3 OT going possibly in the top 8 picks, what are the chances the Eagles trade down for more picks?

If the tackles are as hot as insiders seem to think they are, then you probably stay put at 4 if you want one. If Fisher and Joeckel are both taken with the first three picks, it won’t be long before Johnson (and maybe D.J. Fluker?) are picked off.  I can see the Eagles moving back if Joeckel and Fisher are gone and they aren’t as high on Johnson, or if tackle isn’t the target in Round 1. I don’t anticipate them trading out of the top-10, whatever the case may be.

Howie Roseman seems to think that there are quality tackles sprinkled through the latter rounds. He also seems to think (as others do) that pass-rushers will be harder to find outside of the first round. Maybe that influences their decision if they are choosing between two players with similar grades.

From @aerelorn: What do you make of Dion Jordan’s career stats: 0 interceptions and only 2 pass breakups. Is his coverage ability overrated?

Jordan is one of those pass rushers that could be available at 4. I have concerns about him being overrated, period. He had a total of 14.5 sacks at Oregon. (Jarvis Jones, by comparison, had 14.5 last season alone). Yes, Jordan was dealing with a shoulder injury for much of last year and had to transition from the offensive side of the ball to defense early on, but you would prefer that your top-5 pick had better numbers overall. With Jordan, you have to project. But as Chip Kelly points out, that is true to a degree for all draft picks.

“It’s easy to go hindsight and say we knew this draft was this.  But you really don’t know,” said Kelly. “It’s the same process that we went through in college.  If you look at what are the top 5 or six players in the draft, they weren’t the top 5 or six high school players five years ago.  Dion Jordan is one of the top players out there, and we were smart enough at Oregon to recruit him as a wide receiver.  Now he’s going to play outside linebacker, defensive end in the NFL.  You look at Lane Johnson, who was a high school quarterback, and now he’s an offensive tackle who is a top pick, the list goes on and on.  And Ziggy Ansah was playing basketball and went to BYU to play basketball, and now he may be a Top 10 pick.”

The key is trying to figure out which players have the best chance of developing, and eventually thriving at this level. Kelly will surely have an opinion or two on Jordan in that respect, having coached him at Oregon.

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  • Brent E. Sulecki

    jarvis would be nice..or jordan. my gut says they trade back, the way they have handled the whole offseason, i think its the best strategy, and they know that

    • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

      There is absolutely no speculation of the disruption Jarvis Jones has forged in his conference. Does that translate to him being a “Can’t Miss” prospect no it does not. But we know he can stand out as a playmaker among the Big Boys in College Football.

      • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

        Jarvis Jones is indeed a talented looking prospect. I don’t think he has the size Chip wants though but that’s just a guess. You seem to be pretty high on this guy, wondering what your thoughts are on as to why he’s so far down on the big boards now? Not trying to be snarking, I just don’t know much about it.

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          He’s a rough rugged Old Skool Football players, his measurables and medical are a cause for pause. He fares better in pads in game action than he does in the short shorts Olympics. .

        • Geagle

          If He goes to the Steelers, WATCH OUT!!!!

          • theycallmerob

            That’s where I see him going….Harrison’s replacement. There’s a good chance, as multiple mocks will attest, that every team in the AFC north grabs either an ILB or OLB in the 1st round. And a few talking heads seem to think Jordan, if he makes it past Philly, won’t make it past Cleveland.

      • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

        Can’t miss prospects don’t exist in this draft. There are some that are safer picks, but you don’t win Super Bowls on the safe options. You have to project greatness out of these players and that is a tough thing to do. Give the new regime an opportunity to evaluate talent and make picks. While Jordan is a pick I would love to see happen it isn’t the only pick I would want. The FO could go in a number of different directions and I would be satisfied. In a draft with not as much “top talent” as others my true number one senario is to trade back.

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          I’m never part of the regime that believes Pick 4 is a projection or project. Pick 4, you’re looking for immediate contributions and difference making from that player.

          • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

            Who says Dion Jordan can’t come in and contribute? There’s a difference between a player who hasn’t reached his ceiling and a player who is a project.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            That’s true, no argument from me, but I have reservations about a projection coming off of a surgery being the No. 4 pick. But, historically the Eagles have spent tons of money on injured players so this is part of their character.

            I’m not convinced that is a formula that pays dividends.

          • Tom W

            Get off of what eagles did 10 yrs ago …. makes no sense

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            To you, to me it established and signals a pattern of conduct. Habits are hard to break, and to this point the disappointments in the Eagles draft can be characterized as habit forming.

          • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

            We will get immediate contribution rest assure. No one that we take there would be considered a project. There are others that are safer picks like the OTs available. Who do you suggest we take at 4 then?

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Best player available, hopefully one of the Tackles. If the Eagles are using the Formula for the Best Player Available, which is reasonable, picking for need translates to reaching. Here are the 6 highest Graded Players entering this year’s draft.

            Chance Wamack
            Luke Joeckel
            Dee Milliner
            Mingo
            Lotulelei, Star
            Fisher, Eric

            At pick 32,

            Cyprien, John
            Banks, Johnthan
            Trufant, Desmond
            Ogletree, Alec
            Minter, Kevin
            Eifert, Tyler
            Woods, Robert

            One of these players or a long list of other impact players should be still on the board. .

          • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

            You like Mingo more than Jordan? Why? Your list isnt bad with the exception of that blemish. Warmack will not be the guy. I am a big fan of the OTs and Star Lotulelei. Like Cyprien and Banks, Trufant wont be there and niether will Eifert. Woods is good but Im not sure that we draft a WR that early.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            It’s not who I like or my list., it ‘s how the NFL has these guys Rated as players. Dion Jordan is rated 17th by the NFL They seem to have graded Mingo and a few other potential DEs higher.
            7 of the top 10 grades go to players from the SEC .

            If the Eagles don’t employ the strategy of drafting the best player available when they are on the clock almost anything can be picked from the board, if they are discipline they may come away with some very good players, Wood has a chance of being one of them.

            Miami is the wild card, Miami is negotiating with Branden Albert now, if they sign him that removes their need for one of the tackles, my guess is that opens a spot for Robert Wood, or Patterson. Not many other people have the goods to jump the Eagles, except Detroit to get a tackle. With Reggie Bush, and Stafford they could benefit from a stellar tackle.

          • Tom W

            Great majority of draft grades I have seen (like 98 percent) have jordan ahead of mingo.

            You also cant just look at BPA if that position (for example otackle) is stacked and deep. I would use BPA in conjunction w VBD (value based drafting) and position scarcity. NEED doesn’t come in unless you are down to 2 guys and they are graded closely.

          • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

            What source are you using to TAG as the “NFL” there are tons of used to be’s that work for the Network and nearly every mock I saw them do has Jordan in the top-5.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            I included a link to their page in an above post.

          • Richard Colton

            At #4, totally agree. However, If you’re going to say “graded” you need to be more specific. There are 32 GMs with 32 different sets of grades on 500 players, as well as a thousand talking heads and rank amateurs like us. Which one are you using?

            My only other caveat is that a player’s grade is only part of the equation. Say for the sake of argument we’re using a 100 point scale. Wouldn’t you take a 92 OT over a 94 guard? I would. What about character as a factor? I wouldn’t touch Ogletree in the top two rounds of this draft, and he might have a top ten grade.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            http://www.nfl.com/combine/participants

            Ogletree is a playmaker. True he’s not going to appeal to every GM or Coach, similar to the baggage with Burflict in 2012. It’s high risk, high reward deal.

            I’m not a character guy. When I line you up across from the opponent, I mean for you to kick his ……………..I want you to beat this guy so bad it looks as if you’re cheating. Character doesn’t get you that, although I had a nose tackle who was so polite out of uniform, but once he buckled his helmet he was a complete mad-man, an absolute terror he lead the team in sacks from the nose tackle position.

          • theycallmerob

            Burfict didn’t get a DUI shortly before the combine. IMO, you can’t get much dumber than that. I want no part of Ogletree

          • Geagle

            I can’t wait to hear the two nMes that trashed the combine hotel room…one was rumored to be a first rounder…how dumb can you be?

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            These are kids, and kids will do dumb or foolish things, of course I am not including my 20 something year olds, if left unsupervised. If DUIs were the criteria there would not be many draft participants. College kids and DUIs can’t be a strange or unique phenomenon in or around Phila?

          • Richard Colton

            OK – you’re using NFL.com’s grades. got it.

            Our definitions of character differ. The guy you describe in your hypothetical has it: heart, loyalty, integrity. I don’t want a guy who cares so little about himself and teamates that he sleeps through meetings, or dogs it in practice, or puts his own needs ahead of the team.

            Like I said to Tom, I believe in managing risk. Ogletree might be a risk worth taking at 101, but not 35. Anyway, it’s moot, bc he won’t last to 35.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            I don’t think he will either.
            I broke my teeth in the NFL in the old AFC and being loyal to the Oakland Raiders. What a player does off the field doesn’t enter into my thoughts as long as he is a full contributor when called upon. Pittsburgh was fostered along those same lines the face of the Steelers right today is of questionable character, but he has two super bowl rings. The Eagles almost blew the chance at drafting Jerome Brown because of character.

            I pretty much for the last 20 years have different opinions on the Eagles Draft Considerations. Every year I’ve been at odds with the brass in Phila when it comes to the draft.

          • Geagle

            Dutch…please Make sure you join our Mock draft competition,,,I NEED TO SEE YOU IN THAT!!!!

          • Tom W

            Whose grades are those???????????????????????? don’t look like majority i have seen … Millner and Mingo much lower

        • Tom W

          Well said.

      • Tom W

        Comparing college sack production to nfl sack production is futile. He also has red flags for health and athleticism.

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          So you’re back to the strategy the Eagles used in selecting Mike Mamula with the 7th pick in 95, forgoing the opportunity to draft Warren Sapp.

          The only reason you would not compare Sacks is your intentions for the selection is to flip pancakes every morning for 1o years instead of hunting a Quarterback in the NFL.

          • Tom W

            Sapp had drug red flags thats why they passed. And Mamula while being a combine freak had 29 SACKS his last 2 years in college — if anything he also debunks your college sack production argument hahahahahahahaha

          • theycallmerob

            mamula was ahead of his time!

          • Richard Colton

            and only seconds behind the play. God I hate Mamula.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Not actually, who uses a high pick to draft a player in 95 from the Big East?

            Conference means every thing. The majority of the draft picks in the discussion come from one of three conferences, SEC, Big 12 or the Pac 12. and so happens the power ranking of Conferences in America follow that same chain of thought. Surprisingly the Big 12 is ranked 6th. 7 of the top 10 players with the top grades by the NFL come from SEC schools. It was as shock that McNabb had a stellar career coming out of Syracuse.

  • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

    Excellent analysis Tim, I follow along similar beliefs on potential top 10 draft picks. With pick 4, there should be no question as to whether that individual can come in and make an immediate impact. Jordan is not obviously heads and shoulders better than other available DE/OLB in this draft based on statistics and game tape as a pass rusher.

    Top 10 picks are not supposed to be developmental projects.

    The Dolphins are meeting with disgruntled Kansas City Tackle Branden Albert. The Chiefs only want one of the Dolphins second round picks. That limits, if this deal is reached, a primary option in trading down.

    • cliff henny

      whoa Dutch, somewhere GGeagle’s ears are bleeding.

    • Richard Colton

      Jordan has the potential to be great, but there’s still risk there, as “Bulldog” McManus points out.

      • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

        McManus indicated no such thing, he said ” I have concerns about him (Jordan) being overrated, period” and said “but you would prefer that your top-5 pick had better numbers overall. With Jordan, you have to project.”

        How or where is McManus comments similar to yours?

        • Richard Colton

          he points out that his college production wasn’t what you’d expect from someone with Jordan’s athleticism, as well as the injury. That’s risk – isn’t it?

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            The Article clearly states, “I have concerns about him being overrated. period” and “With Jordan, you have to project” .
            If you are able to find his sentiments similar with your post, then I’m wrong.

          • Richard Colton

            Rich Colton thinks: “Jordan has the potential to be great” my opinion.

            Tim argues: that taking Jordan is projecting his value based more on athleticism and less on production, for a number of reasons. That means risk.

      • Tom W

        Just as risky as fisher or joeckel

        • Wilbert M.

          Fisher and Joeckel are as close to sure things as it gets. They’re NFL ready. They are much safer picks than a project like Jordan.

          • Tom W

            Do you think the teams that drafted Robert Gallery, Mike Williams, and various other busts at otackle over the last 13 years thought they were busts? 50 percent of top 5 otackles never make a probowl. I am trying to look at the positions globally and unbiased. History says lb is safer in the first rd and just as safe in the top 5. I am trying to debunk unproven draft myths based on statistics. LESSON — THERE IS NO SURE THING.

          • Richard Colton

            See, we disagree a little on Gallery – probably why you read Sheil’s chart as 60/40 and I see it as 70/30. He wasn’t a star, but he became a pretty damn good NFL guard.

            I honestly like your approach – it’s way more logical then the yahoos who come on here and yell “Draft the best available left footed safety in round 3.” I think you might be falling into the trap of wanting a certain outcome on draft night, and finding research to support that position.

          • Tom W

            I hear ya to a certain extent. My main thing is that there is alot of draft myths so I look at actual stats. I also think teams should use bpa along w VBD and position scarcity and historical bust rate/vs success rate.

            The sack thing yes — I found that to debunk the jarvis jones SEC argument — and I was quite shocked how the sack specialists from the SEC historically stink.

            But the success rate vs bust rate of otackles vs lbs in first round and top 5 really shocked me and made me lean towards Jordan. Along with the depth at otackle this year vs lack of depth at passrusher. But most importantly how history shows you have as good a chance in first round and second round of finding a probowl otackle or all pro. That blew my mind. All those things weighing in favor of not going otackle vs the versatitlity/athleticism of Jordan made me go his way. Heck I know Joeckel and Fisher look like great safe players but neither one is boselli or joe thomas or orlando pace. So they aren’t game-changers. Personally, Lane Johnson intrigues me more and I see the potential to be a game changer there in him. Much like Jordan but a bit riskier.

            I also really like Armstead And Kyle Long and to a lesser extent Brennen Williams. Plus, I’m not ready to give up on Watkins so I kinda see spending 4 on Fisher a waste of our resources from a optimum use standpoint.

            Also I guess my risk tolerance is a bit higher than most … but the risk I am taking is because the upside or ceiling is great. Jordan/Armstead or Long/Vance McDonald/ Philip Thomas / McGee/ Princeton DE/Cal PA safety … thats my 7 .. each player has a strong chance of exceeding his draft position in 3 yrs by far and I think that is what you want in a draft. Maybe I should play it safer at 4, but I have never seen a player like Jordan before and the move tes and read option qbs scare me.

          • Richard Colton

            good post as always. A 1&2 Jordan/Armistead draft would excite me, as would Fisher/Carridine. I have less risk tolerance than you, but if Jordan’s the pick, I’m guessing Howie and Chip know something about him beyond just college production.

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          Defenders from the draft have a 70% chance of failure, Offensive Tackles have a 70% rate of success. That’s a lot of things, but choosing a top rated tackle is not as risky as picking a top defender.

          • Tom W

            Wrong. Read the Chart.

          • Richard Colton

            Back to the chart again… the one that says to never draft a round one QB?

          • Tom W

            Doesn’t say never — says there are alot of busts thats all. But because qb is soooooooo important w the rule changes helping offense and because they cost so much money, of course teams overdraft the qbs in rd1. look at 2 yrs ago. you take qbs in rd 1 because the good ones go fast, and people overdraft them. I think you would agree qb is a unique position in and of itself. If teams didn’t overdraft qbs, those bust rates would be much different. But we arent talking about qbs are we.

        • Richard Colton

          I’ll agree to a point about Fisher, but not about Joeckal. He played in the best conference in college football and dominated. There’s a reason he’s going #1.

          • Geagle

            Joekel is too technical to ever bust…however, his Physical ceiling isn’t that high…so he will be a good solid LT regardless, but it’s possible for him to not grow into rHE ALL PRO he is touted to be….

            Fisher will undoubtably be a good run blocker. But it’s possible that he will just be average as a pass blocker….In a normal year, Fisher could probably be the 15th pick in a draft…I think rare athleticism like Dions will always keep you in the top 10

          • theycallmerob

            I agree with you and Geagle, Joeckel is so technically sound he should do fine. But just something about him, at least to me, doesn’t scream “overall #1 draft pick, pro-bowler in 3 yrs”. I think of the 3, Lane Johnson has the highest ceiling. But there’s plenty of depth beyond rd. 1

          • Geagle

            Agreed man…Lane has ALL PRO CEILING! Joekel as pro bowl ceiling. there is a better chance Joekel reaches his ceiling. Depending on your equation, I could see a case for drafting either over the other…..Fisher on the other hand to me is over rated because he is a run blocker, and they are always cheaper and easier to find than that stud pass blocker…When a GM talks about how valuable a LT is, he is talking ant the LT keeping pressure off the QB..YOU WILL NEVER hear a GM, put more importance on the way a LT opens holes for the RB, than the pressure he keeps off the QB…..lFisher isn’t the polished sure thing pass blocker that some people like to think, so I don’t care how much we are going to run the ball, I cant be happy with Fish….Lane I would ATleast understand

          • Jason N.

            I have no idea where you pull that out from but Fisher is a good of a pass blocker as he is a run blocker.

            His skill level is a bit bellow Joeckel, but he got more athleticism.

            Johnson got more athleticism than both but lower skill.

            Fisher is smack in the middle of Joeckel and Johnson.

            So if I have to pick 1 LT. I’m going with Fisher. He got a mix of both good skill and athleticism to succeed.

          • Billy Smith

            Lol…Joeckel didn’t dominate. You might want to re-watch whatever film you’re looking at.

        • Jason N.

          That is false. Not as risky as Fisher or Joeckel.

          If you’re telling me that right now that Jordan is a better or on the same level of a prospect as Joeckel or Fisher, then you must be crazy. I’ve seen pass rushers that are more polished than Jordan coming out of college.

          What you’re selling on Jordan is a guy with extreme athleticism but who is also pretty raw.

          Joeckel and even Fisher are more polished with their techniques than Jordan is.

          Jordan is much more of a boom bust player. Find me at least 2 experts that think Jordan is a big of a risk as Joeckel and Fisher and ill join your team “Jordan”

    • Tom W

      Dion Jordan is heads and shoulders above the other 3/4 olb prospects and if he isn’t then all the draftexperts and Howie Roseman are wrong. Think I will take their word (Jeremiah and Mayock and Scouts Inc and Roseman) over yours. After Jordan and Mingo (who I have serious concerns about), the best olb 3-4 scheme is Jamie Collins and he can be had in the 3d/4th rd. Now look at otackle — there is ATLEAST 5 first round tackles and another at least 3 in the second round. Add in Brennen Williams and you 10 quality otackle prospects in first 3-4 rds. So otackle is also very very deep this year — another reason NOT to take fisher at 4.

      And I am glad to see Howie realized that otackles can be found throughout the draft and that if you want an elite pass rusher, you gotta go to the top. Same thing I have been saying since before free agency started … can’t acquire one player or draft one pick in a vacuum. If Dion Jordan is a 94/95 and passrushers w coverage ability are slim to none (Mingo a 91 then a drop to mid 70s w Jamie Collins), and joeckel is a 96 and fisher a 95 and johnson a 93 and Fluker, Menelik, Armstead, Pugh, Long, Williams all above 85, why in gods name would you force a fisher pick when you could optimize you picks and get Jordan (95) and Armstead Pugh Long in the second (85-88) or Williams in the 3d (81-83) or would you rather get Fisher (95), and Jamie Collins (75).

      Combine the 2013 draft depth at otackle and shallowness at passrushing/cover 3-4 lbs, along with the success rate of probowl/all-pro otackles in first round and second round over the last 13 yrs (about equal per eagles rewind) and the steep dropoff at linebacker prospects over last 13 yrs (per eaglesrewind.com) after round 1, and I think logically the smart pick is not otackle.

      And to debunk the safe pick argument, 50 percent of otackles taken in the top 5 in last 13 years were BUSTS (non-probowlers as you told me just starting isn’t good enough) —– SAME EXACT ratio as lbs … entire first round its not even close — LBS are way safer when it comes to probowl than otackles.

      http://eaglesrewind.com/2013/03/20/1st-round-breakdown/

      I watched every game Jordan played his junior and senior years (and I posted them here) and when he was asked to rush the passrusher (which wasn’t that often!!! hence why sack totals would be lower) he had the speed/bend/agility to beat most tackles w ease. He also chased down rbs easily. He also covered slot wrs and played bump and run. He was also the contain or spy on the qb in various games w teams who ran the read option. He also covered tes. He is by far the most versatile, athletically-gifted defensive players in this draft. Period. And luckily we have the guy who knows him best.

      As for production in college, I didn’t see anyone throw on him in 2 yrs — hence why he didn’t have a bunch of ints or passes defended. And he was an de/olb — they don’t have 5-8 ints like safeties or corners for goddsake.

      And I think I previously pointed (with the help of Dan Jeremiah) that sack production in college is a complete misnomer of indicating pro success.

      http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap1000000153321/article/jarvis-jones-vs-dion-jordan-best-pass-rusher-in-nfl-draft

      Based on statistics (and not opinion or myths or voodoo), nfl sack leaders over the last 5 years typically haven’t had high sack totals their last yr in college and vice versa (SEC sack leaders bust out in pros). And do you know why — because college competition is inferior to the nfl (even in the SEC). Thus what do nfl scouts and coaches look for????????? They look for athletes that can coach and develop who will create mismatches. They look for players whose size and athletic ability can project to be a dominant player.

      Furthermore, his junior year was the first year he ever played defense … Think about this ..he was recruited out of high school as a tall wr. he was then switched to te 2 yrs later. Then to olb his junior yr. Can you imagine that. A 19 yr old being asked to go from wr to de/olb in 2 yrs at an elite div 1 program and succeeded beyond anyone’s imagination. Sure does show a good kid, a kid who is coachable, a kid who wants to succeed, and an uber athlete who is versatile. His senior yr he had 5.5 sacks in 5 games before the torn labrum (shoulder). He was obviously limited in the USC and Stanford games (although I would argue Stanford ran the ball 75 percent of the time so judging his passrush in that game is silly) and the rest of the season. If he was healthy all year he probably gets 9-11 sacks. So I think we can agree its not for lack of talent or effort, but inexperience (his jr yr) and the injury (his senior yr.) his sack totals were down. Thanks

      • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

        Can’t prove that by his Stats, and that’s simply what McManus states. He’s not accumulated half the sacks or production of Jarvis Jones who was a stand out in the toughest conference SEC, in America in 2012.

        One’s practice, the other is theory. Minor differences to some, major to others.

        • Tom W

          Sack totals in SEC mean squat …look at Jeremiah’s article. Thanks for playing. It was an irresponsible comparison.

          • Geagle

            Very irresponsible…I mean, if you actually watch Jarvis 14sacks, how many did he actually manufacture? 6? The rest were Coverage Sacks, or sacks, we’re his NFL teammates, would just chase QB’s into his arms…I’m not trying to downplay Jarvis, because if he lands with the Steelers he will end up Beasting the League…but it’s a very irresponsible comparison. if you want to make that Comparison, than you should include how many pass rush attempts Jarvis had, compared to How Many Dion had…You should research how many pass rushers tried to beat 300lb lineman with 1 arm…research DE’s playing with a torn labrum, and compare their production to thee normal production, and you will always see a drastic drop off…..

            dudes are complaining that he has 0 INTs? Really? How many times have QB’s actually thrown the ball to the man Dion was defending? VERY FEW QBs tried to test him!!! When a QB looks at his options, and he see’s a 6’6 man with a freak wingspan who is as fast as most recievers, you probably are gong to look somewhere else to throw the ball. teams stopped throwing at Jordan, and they stopped running at Jordan…do you think that was just a coincidence?

            do people understand, what type of undstanding you have to have for the game of football, to never play defense, and just switch on the Fly in a decent conference? it takes a heckuva understanding for the game of football. To lineup everywhere and do so many things for your team…so instead of worrying about what he didn’t do? your jaws should be on the ground at how he was able to do so much, having so little experience on the defensive side of the ball….To compare that with a guy like Jarvis, who had been playing defense his whole life is silly.

            so, Dions production didn’t compare to Jarvis….IT DAMN SURE COMPARED TO JASON TAYLOR’s, who played for Akron in a shit conference! dions 5 sacks his senior season(half of which he was injured), certainly compare to the 5-7 sacks Aldon smith, and Demarcus Ware had the year they got drafted….Jason Taylor, Demarcus Ware, Aldon Smith, been playing defense since high school!!! Don’t bother looking it up, because I already did….

            Let the man get a healthy, and gain some experience on the defensive side of the ball, and you will get all the production you could dream of

          • Tom W

            preach on

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            Well if you’re not using Sacks as the barometer to gauge the value of a DE/OLB in the most stellar Conference with premium competition, what are you using as a determining factor? PIck-up games at the YMCA?

            I don’t want you to take this in the wrong way, but by the time Jeremiah learned to write his name I had been steeped in Football for several years, maybe decades.

            I don’t borrow the opinions of paid shrills and paint them as my own or need them to validate my knowledge base of the Game. Jeremiah is the same guy who forecast Geno Smith being picked by Kelly and the Eagles with pick 4.

          • Tom W

            Jeremiah didnt make up history — historically sack leaders in SEC have NOT done well lately in the nfl. I am using his article (because of the stats) to prove my point, rather than throwing around a opinion (whether its based on 20 yrs of experience or 5.) Again if you would rather takes shot at jeremiah rather than address my valid arguments, than thats fine.

            It could have been kiper, mayock, buddy ryan or donald duck who wrote the article. I’m utilizing the stats he included in the chart because I was actually able to link to it here and prove the college sack production vs nfl production argument wrong and a myth so I could stop listening to you and others tout jarvis jones over dion.

            Furthermore, dont ask me what I am using. Ask the gms for the teams who drafted Clay Matthews, Chris Clemons, Geno Atkins, Aldon Smith, and signed Cameron Wake what they used as a barometer because it sure as hell was NOT sack production. But those guys all lead the nfl in sacks! Hence why I can see the same for Jordan (if not uber versatility as well).

            And god lets hope the eagles don’t use SEC SACK PRODUCTION as a barometer for nfl pass rushing success or we could end up with Willie Evans, Jamal Anderson, Derrick Harvey, Marcus Howard, Greg Hardy, Wallace Gilberry, Carlos Dunlap, Eric Norwood, Antonio Coleman, or Nick Fairley.

            If you got a problem w Jeremiah or young people in general leave me out of it. I base my opinions in fact and stats and historical evidence if I can. I’m sure you know alot about college football but to throw a former nfl scout and a very successful nfl on-air talent under the bus based on his age seems a bit childish itself.

          • theycallmerob

            old people…am I right? I appreciate the stats, Tom. To be honest, I kindof like Jarvis as a player (not due to sack production), but I don’t see him as a #4 pick. But I wouldn’t mind Dion at that spot. Though I’m still holding out hope we move down a few spots….would LOVE an extra 2nd or 3rd.

          • Tom W

            I thought Jarvis was one of the best college rushers I have seen in last few yrs but the spine, lack of athleticism, and height concern me enough to drop him to the 15-25 range.

          • Billy Smith

            Height concern? Seriously? That means nothing. He’s 6’3. There’s more than a few good pro pass rushers that size or smaller

          • Tom W

            Didn’t use his opinions — just the stats in his article. But I have no problem citing the opinions of numerous draft professionals and our our GM to counter the opinion you spout sometimes and support my own. To do otherwise would be silly .. thats how people draft viable arguments … they dont just spout nonsense .. they come up w an opinion based on fact and history and research and low and behold that historically accurate opinion just so happens to be supportable.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            You mean like a player’s sack total from the SEC means squat? Or, the classic, Nick Foles has more impact then Cam Newton?

      • Geagle

        As always, good stuff Tom Wat…..I actually think Jamie Collins is coming off the board in round 2….he is No better in Coverage than Barwin….I still really like Jamie. but If we have to use a number 2 to get Jamie, I’d much rather use a number one to get Dion

      • Fink

        ^Probably one of the best comments I’ve read on this site. Well done, T-Wat.

      • Cheesesteak

        Damn Tom…Nice! Although, Now I want Dion Lewis even more.

      • Billy Smith

        Uhh…Jarvis Jones is the best 3-4 OLB in the draft. He’s got more sacks than most of them combined

  • Maine

    1. Tavon Austin. Geno Smith is a smokescreen to sell their pick to trade down. Read in between the lines. Austin made Geno Smith. Every clutch moment & 3rd down his go to was Austin. Chip Kelly loves offense and could care less about the defense. He’s gonna out score ppl. Vick,Jackson, Shady, Maclin, Austin. No way teams could double Jackson anymore. Safety’s already play deep but what are they gonna do when Austin goes underneath and Jackson over the top. Kick return, special teams

    • Token

      Geno Smith had some good weapons and was still a loser.

      • Geagle

        RIGHT!!!!

    • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

      Stedman Baily wasn’t a chunk of cheese at West Virginia, he compiled 112 receptions in 2012 also, and 1600 yards compared to Austin’s 1200 yds. Not disputing Austin is a playmaker. Out the door in the NFL Austin’s capable of creating problems for a defense paired with someone like D Jax on the other side. In the option read most passes are under 10 yds and depends on the open space ability of the receiver. Austin could add another element to bubble screens.

      I’m a fan of USC Robert Woods if dependability and catch reliability in traffic is what’s needed for an Offense.

      • Geagle

        Baily was ranked as having the most clutch receptions in the nation…Austin, is the most dangerous weapon in the nation….If you play in a week conference, with those kind of weapons…I expect you to look like the second coming of Joe Montana….If Foles played with Geno’s Oline, Tavon, and Steadman, Foles would have probably had a bett career than Geno….vice versa, but Geno behind Foles college line, and we would be probably talking about Geno as a 5th round draft pick

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          The last to Heisman trophy winners came from the Big 12, Johnny Football, and Robert Griffin III, the same Conference West Virginia plays in.

          • Geagle

            hahaha every conference has produced great players. thanks for the valuable contribution. I had no idea what conference RG3 played in lol

          • The Rick

            As of last season, Texas A&M is now the SEC…3 of the last 4 Heisman winners were SEC Players

          • http://www.facebook.com/joe.borek Joe Borek

            Johnny Football plays in the SEC now.

        • BrickSquadMonopoly

          I wondering if bailey is someone we could look at to pick up in the later rounds I think I heard thats where hes projected. Solid wideout. good head on his shoulders.

          • Geagle

            wouldnt surprise me at all….my guess is he goes round 3

    • Richard Colton

      There is a chance he’s Percy Harvin. There’s a chance he’s Peter Warrick. I honestly think Corderrelle Patterson will have a better career at both WR and KR, but I wouldn’t take either at #4. Now if the Howie does his best St Louis Rams ’12 impression and trades down multiple times – finds himself picking in the late teens early twenties – and somehow Patterson is there…I wouldn’t mind seeing him as the pick.

      Not the direction I would take – I want a player at #4 – but I wouldn’t draft a WR in that spot.

      • Geagle

        Ogletree was interviewed the other day, and they asked him who was the best offensive player he played against in the SEC, without hesitation, he said Cordarell!

      • Geagle

        Certainly don’t want a WR at 4……Unless you talkin Calvin, Julio, or AJ

    • Maine

      excruciating 4-12 season for no damn Lineman to be picked. I want a Freaking stud play maker. C’mon eagles fans y’all seen those games. We couldn’t put up a point. We the browns by 1!!! Wtf! Special Teams was terrible.Defensive cancers were soft and removed. Secondary is solid now. Offensive line is solid coming form injuries. Eagles are in position to take the best player available. Aka Tavon Austin

    • eaglesanch

      Austin reminds me of Peter Warrick drafted #4 by Cincy some years back. He was considered the best WR coming out of FLA State, but ultimately sucked ass.

    • Billy Smith

      Who got Austin and Bailey the ball? Or did they throw to themselves

  • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

    One interesting benefit that the Eagles have that I never thought of until the other day (brought up on EaglesRewind.com), the Eagles have 2 teams ahead of them that are historically bad at drafting in Jax and Oakland (and even KC to an extent, especially with Andy at the helm) works out well for us. The more teams that whiff on their picks ahead of us, the more talented prospects fall to us.

    • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

      Interesting thought

    • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

      The little glitch in that theory is that the Raiders are now run by HOF Offensive Linemen, Reggie McKinsey. I wouldn’t just assume McKinsey discounts the benefits of drafting a difference making tackle for either line.

      Al Davis, god rest his soul, is dead!

      • Tom W

        good point. New GM is jax too. Same w chiefs.

      • http://www.philthycanuck.com/ Adam

        Am I missing something here? Reggie McKenzie,, not McKinsey.. is the GM of the Raiders.. never played guard.. he was a linebacker.. and he wasn’t a Hall of Famer either.

        and this guy just hired Bobby April so I’m not about to crown him king of anything yet.

        • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

          You’re correct, I wrong. I’m thinking Shell and Upshaw. I’m surprised that Sapp and Lott went in to the Hall of Fame as Raiders. That can’t be right, can it ?

  • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

    Ron Burke on Comcast Sportsnet predicts the Eagles going Fisher in round one and Margus Hunt in round 2. If you have been listening to me for a while I have been ringing the bell for Hunt. While I would rather see Jordan go to us with the first round pick I would loved a combination of Fisher round one and Hunt round two.

  • Geagle

    DioN Jordan????? Did someone say Dion Jordan?

    • nicksaenz1

      saw Dion’s name n knew you’d be all over this lol

      • Geagle

        I been at work all day with my boss over my shoulder, so I was going crazy waiting to pounce all over this..If Dion s on the board, and chip passes on him, I promise I will get behind Chip and who we pick, and trust his decision…but leading up to the draft, there is no way I can be convinced that if he is on the board, I will hear any other name called..I just can’t believe it..

        Dion is certainly not the only player I would love to have. there are about 8 players that we could come away with that will excite me..I just think Dion makes the most sense, since Finding another comparable player will not be easy

    • Fink

      I love Dion, but it’s great to know that we can trust Chip with the decision since he knows him better than anyone. If Chip wants him, he’ll get him. And if he doesn’t, then he probably isn’t everything we think he is.
      I just hope he is.. haha

      • Geagle

        I totally agree..as Dion crazy as I am, if he is on the board, and chip doesn’t force Howie to draft him, then I will fully agree with passing on him..but leading up to the draft, I just can’t imagine us passing on him if he is on the board…The problem is that, I worry he won’t be on the board…if that’s the case, I hope we trade back, and try to have star fall to us, or settle for Sheldon(which is not a bad consolation prize at all..think Fletcher Cox part Deux) lol

  • Geagle

    To just say Jarvis had 14 saks last year, and Jordan had 14 his entire career is just irresponsible….Did you actually look at Jarvis Jones 14 sacks? how many did he actually create? 6 maybe….the rest were coverage sacks, or his NFL supporting cast, would just chase QB’s into his arms….Go back and watch Jarvis’s 14 sacks

    • peteike

      ya but Jarvis Jones just sounds like a name that will be playing in the NFL for a while, doesnt it, has a nice ring to it ha

      • Geagle

        I don’t mean to diminish Jarvis…because I would take him in a heartbeat. just not at 4….Jarvis as a prospect isn’t even comparable to Dion. Jarvis is limited. dion has NO CEILING! Ya dig? Lol

  • Geagle

    Why does Jordan have 0 INTs? Wo the F is gong to throw at a 6’6 dude in coverage with ridiculous wingspan? watch the tape. teams stopped running Jordan’s way, and they damn sure didn’t throw his way

    • Smegga

      So nobody threw his way on the field, and he was double or triple blocked in pass rushing situations, leading to his low sack numbers. He sounds amazing!
      Jordan is a project, one not worthy of taking in the top ten. He could be a freak and be the new Lawrence Taylor, but stop acting like he already is.

      • cliff henny

        in fairness, that pretty much was the case. teams just went away from him, you can do that alot easier in college. even if the guy doesnt turn into great pass rusher, though i think he’ll be atleast above average, he has so many skills, he’ll always be a huge plus on the field. one great advantage of versatility

        • Geagle

          Yup…that’s the thing with Dion. He will NEVER be a bust…at worst, it’s possible that he will be a pass rushing Bust, I don’t see how, But I will conceded it for argument sake…The thing with Dion is, besides pass rushing, thee are like 10 other things he can do for your team…and it’s pretty much impossible, for a guy with that Charecter and talent, to suck at EVERYTHNG. If that’s the case, then he should OFF HIMSELF!!!

          Alot of plays can only do one or 2 things for you…so if they don’t become good at those things, they become a complete waste….Dion can do so much, than no matter how he develops, there will be ways that he can help your team….NOT MANY PROSPECTS that you can say that about

      • Tom W

        Watch the tape .. no one threw his way. And he never said he was doube/triple blocked. He doesn’t sound, he looks amazing and versatile. I think his head coach knows better than McManus or Dutch if the kid is risky or not. Thanks.

        • Token

          You should watch the tape of tackles that had no business handling this “athletic freak”, handling him with ease.

          What looks amazing and versatile about him exactly? Because hes tall and ran a good 40? Does he convert speed and quickness into power? I havent seen that. I think hes plays pretty small for such a big kid.

          Then theres this myth that hes a shutdown pass defender. Just dont know where this comes from. He doesnt even play any great TEs. When he does he got burned.

          Just because you are big and fast doesnt mean your a good football player. People must get over this combine stuff. Maybe one day Jordan will be good. But he has a ways to go. He was a offensive player just a few years ago. He is a project. I think your right that Kelly knows him better than anyone. Which is why he wont be a Eagle IMO.

          • Geagle

            you should do research, on past Dends, that played with a torn labrum and see how much their production fell off from their Norm…I alady did the research and wrote an article about it, I just don’t know where to post it….Instead of worrying about the lack of production, you should be focused on what kind a warrior he was to try and get passed 300lb lineman with 1arm…. Your stats, aren’t the be all…Jason Taylor played for bum ass Akron, in a pee wee conference lol, and only averaged 7 sacks per season, was the same size as Dion coming out of college, and didn’t have anywhere near close to the speed Dion did…btw, Jason Taylor wasn’t a former Wide RECIEVER…He had been playing LB and DE since High school, played some WIL early on at Akron…He didn’t play thru a torn labrum either…

            I don’t know where people get the impression, that TOP players on a defense, that get schemed for by opposing coaches, can just consistently beat 300lb men with arm? Lol…HUMAN ELEMENT FOLKS!!!

          • Tom W

            Nothing to do with combine. He was rated in top 8-12 of draft in January. Unlike a Lane Johnson or Fisher who jumped after senior bowl and combine.

            And where do you see project? He played all over the field. Picked up the position (and defense) remarkably quick and was all-pac 10 first team. Now Ansah is a project. The kid from SMU too. Thats like saying Aldon Smith was a project coming out of college

          • Fink

            Dion isn’t in consideration for a top 5 pick because he is a polished OLB, because he’s not.
            He does, however, possess an incredibly rare combination of size, speed, and athleticism. You can’t teach these things.. He has the foundation that coaches can build upon, and as he returns with a healthy shoulder and gets some more experience under his belt, the sky is the limit for this kid.
            Also, he has great character, is incredibly coachable, and is willing to make sacrifices for his team. Sounds like someone I want in midnight (and sometimes kelly) green.
            He can do so many things as a SAM. Rush the passer, drop back into coverage, QB spy, etc.. He doesn’t have to be the absolute best at any of them, but being able to do ALL of the well (which he can) means opposing offenses don’t know what he is doing on any given play, so they have to plan for everything. Advantage us.
            Just imagine Dion spying RGIII… RG rolls out to the right and finds Dion staring him down from 10 yards out, so he cuts back to the left and WHAM! Fletcher Cox puts his helmet into RG’s ribcage. Can’t type this without smiling.

          • http://twitter.com/Lez215 Dutch

            This was the exact justification for the Eagles passing over HOFer Warren Sapp for Mike Mamula in 1995 with the 7th pick. That pick also was not done based on any credible evidence he was a top performer, but solely on his combine measurables

            Teams didn’t have to throw at him, but the creditable offenses like Stanford and USC with game changing ends were not hindered by him in their passing attacks. Basically it was easier to run directly at him. He plays the run like Babin constantly over running the play and if he stays in he’s easily handled by a quality tackle. Running at the opposition’s power is a time honored strategy so long as you have a mauler there.

            Jordan is capable of dipping his shoulder to beat the edge on tackles who have a poor kick and slide technique and a weak punch. However, if he gets hung up, he doesn’t have the ability to use his hands to free himself.

        • Smegga

          I exaggerated about the blocking thing because Geagle goes on and on about Jordan being great.
          People like to have certain stats to point to as a reason to take a certain player. So when people here dismiss Geno Smith because he threw a lot of screens and had good receivers who covered up his deficiencies, it annoys me to see those same people say that stats don’t tell the true story of Dion Jordan.
          I like Dion Jordan. He’s got potential, but I see a guy who on tape gets handled easily by tackles. He’s too lean, gets bumped on his way to the passer too easily, and lacks a real counter move.
          If we take him, I hope he becomes the next Ware/Orakpo and I’ll root for him, but I just don’t see that greatness that some here do.

          • Tom W

            Fair points. I don’t see him getting handled by otackles. Maybe he was a bit less forceful after the torn labrum but that makes sense.

            He is 6 -7 — yes he is lean now. He was a wr as a freshman. But put on weight to become a te in his second yr. he was playing te until the summer before his junior year. Senior yr until now — he didn’t have a chance to put on more weight or lift because of the torn labrum. I’m not concerned about his ability to get stronger or put weight on once he is completely healthy.

            Counter move can be taught but honestly he didn’t really need one in college. His first step with his stride and bend is amazing — closest thing I have seen to demarcus ware.

      • http://www.facebook.com/todd.orange.1 Todd Orange

        To say he is not worthy of a top 10 pick is naive. He is an athletic freak who does have potential to be great and willl have an impact on a team that drafts him from day 1. His only downfall is open-field tackling where shiftier players can kind of juke him. Teams definately shyed away from going in his direction, all you have to do is put on the film and see for yourself.

    • Token

      So, hes so much better than all the other top defenders in the draft that actually produced, that teams just completely went away from him…… Come on.

      • Geagle

        NO….I’m talking abut OLB’s…..I would much rather have standouts from bad defenses, who are alady used to a ton of attention, and being gameplanned for like Dion, and Star….than I will a guy like Jarvis who is on a defense with 8 other NFL players…Easy to throw away from Dion..who else did Oregon defense have? Kiko? Boyet……Not so easy to throw away from Jarvis when you got Ogltree, Rambo, Shawn dub, and countless other BALLERS on the other recievers….ya dig? Lol

        Just like I would be more comfortable drafting Star, who has seen a double team on every single play, and who every opposing coach tried to game plan for than I would a guy Like Jon Jenkins who had help all around him

        • peteike

          I really think Star is their guy. Some say he is best d player of them all potentially.

          • Geagle

            I would not complain at all if Star is an eagle. I don’t believe that we would pass on Dion if he is on the board, but WTF do I know? Your guess is certainly as good as mine. in my head, if Dion isn’t on the board, star will get very serious consideration from us….I do think Sharif is off our board tho(the only thing that makes me not Sure is that Howie went to his school and has been following Sharrif for a while)

          • Fink

            Geagle.. Just out of curiosity, what makes you think Sharrif is off our board?
            Also, does Star’s age concern you at all? I know he isn’t THAT old, but just wondering..

          • Geagle

            because I don’t have much confidence that Sharrif can 2gap(eat up blockers), he is more of a gap shooter. ideallyI think Sharrif should play on a 4man line, or 3tec/NT in a gap shooting scheme. I think Chip wants players that can do both, 2gap, and penetrate. Can’t play 3-4 with out 2gappers

            His age certainly isn’t ideal. However he was double and Tripple teamed, and gameplanned for so much, that it’s not like you are drafting a 27yr old firefighter…plus I think Chip knows star pretty well

          • Dominik

            Is it wrong for me to expect a Haloti Ngata like dominating D-Lineman at the NFL level if we pick Star with the #4? Just wondering. Pass Rusher (Jordan) or a really good O-Linemen I understand at #4, but a D-Lineman has to be really good if you pick him at #4, in my opinion. Is Star this good?

          • Tom W

            I wonder if the dolphins make us a sick offer (12 and high 2 and high 3) if we take it regardless of who is on the board.

          • Geagle

            very interesting that would be…..rumor is that the dolphins have permission to talk to Brandon Albert, and they have that extra 2nd round pick that KC wants..but then the chiefs shot down that rumor, but I don’t believe that the chiefs are telling the truth

          • Tom W

            I hear Albert rumor is just smoke to just give dolphins some leverage w teams knowing they want to trade up but teams know this so people are laughing at them

  • Fink

    Baldinger just predicted that the Eagles will win the NFC East.

  • Jason N.

    Man I really hope he draft Eric Fisher at 4th overall. This guy is going to be good for us for at least half a decade.

    We can draft DT in the 2nd with guys like John Hankins or Sly Williams.

    Eric Fisher is just way too good of a prospect to pass up, especially in a year where there is no elite talent.